Are Women In The Church Upset They Do Not Currently Have The Priesthoo

[Gaia]

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The amount of talk we have currently have going on about this subject seems pointless to me. I am wondering if I am a minority on the way I feel about this.

I have a question. True or False.

"Women in the LDS Church are upset that they do not currently have the Priesthood"

SF,

The Lord has blessed me with plenty of Priesthood, as far as myself goes. Asking women if they want to hold the Priesthood, meaning more than the Lord has already given or in her arms, is like asking men if they want to start bearing children! We all have our callings and responsibilities. The responsibilities the Lord has given me are plenty. I cannot handle my own responsibilities at times, let alone take on the mens too.

Josie

GAIA:

Hi There, Josie --

With all due respect, the idea that Priesthood is somehow equivalent to Motherhood is a popular one that's even preached from the pulpit sometimes -- but it's bogus. It's an ERROR based upon a misunderstanding of both Parenthood and Priesthood.

Priesthood is not equivalent with Motherhood; FATHERhood is equivalent with MOTHERhood.

And obviously, men can be BOTH fathers and Priesthood holders.

Once more, according to scripture and modern LDS teachings, women who eventually obtain exaltation are to become "Queens and PRIESTESSES" in the Kingdom of God. (See the quotes and references provided previously in POst # 50 of the "What God Thinks About Women And The Priesthood"

Thread, Here: http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=9872&st=45

So Priesthood and Motherhood are really two very different (but NOT mutually exclusive) things . :)

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Elphaba]

What does me being a woman have to do with it?

Everything.

If there were a majority (which is what I said) of women unhappy about not having the priesthood, we would hear more about it

When? Where? How?

I do not know a single Mormon woman who is upset about not having the priesthood

And that proves what? Perhaps that no Mormon woman, who has an issue with not holding the Priesthood, feels comfortable personally discussing the subject with you?

I have met a few...very few

"very few" what?

.the question is really pointless anyway, since its impossible to answer the question without surveying every woman in the church

Then you admit your response to the question, which was: "FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority." was rash and wrong, as not every female member has been surveyed.

...not likely to ever see such a survey, since poles are not conducted when formulating church policy...

And thus you'll never likely know the answer to the question, again making your bold exclamation of "FALSE" too hasty and reactionary.

I have no opinion as to whether LDS women are upset about not holding the Priesthood. The issue I am addressing is to whom these women would tell if they were upset about it.

That's why it matters that you're a man. There are LDS women out there who are upset about it, and you, and most other men are likely the last person they would tell. Busy Priesthood holders are more likely to respond with Six's words than not, though hopefully without his Rigdon-like need for demonstrative superiority.

Other men, of course, would be far more receptive; however, ultimately the answer would be the same.

So it does matter that you're a man. It's not an insult. It's just a reality. Most LDS women are not going to seek you out and confide in you their true feelings about their issues with the Priesthood. Why would they?

Elphaba

[Josie]

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The amount of talk we have currently have going on about this subject seems pointless to me. I am wondering if I am a minority on the way I feel about this.

I have a question. True or False.

"Women in the LDS Church are upset that they do not currently have the Priesthood"

SF,

The Lord has blessed me with plenty of Priesthood, as far as myself goes. Asking women if they want to hold the Priesthood, meaning more than the Lord has already given or in her arms, is like asking men if they want to start bearing children! We all have our callings and responsibilities. The responsibilities the Lord has given me are plenty. I cannot handle my own responsibilities at times, let alone take on the mens too.

Josie

GAIA:

Hi There, Josie --

With all due respect, the idea that Priesthood is somehow equivalent to Motherhood is a popular one that's even preached from the pulpit sometimes -- but it's bogus. It's an ERROR based upon a misunderstanding of both Parenthood and Priesthood.

Priesthood is not equivalent with Motherhood; FATHERhood is equivalent with MOTHERhood.

And obviously, men can be BOTH fathers and Priesthood holders.

Once more, according to scripture and modern LDS teachings, women who eventually obtain exaltation are to become "Queens and PRIESTESSES" in the Kingdom of God. (See the quotes and references provided previously in POst # 50 of the "What God Thinks About Women And The Priesthood"

Thread, Here: http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=9872&st=45

So Priesthood and Motherhood are really two very different (but NOT mutually exclusive) things . :)

Blessings --

~Gaia

I was not comparing Priesthood and Motherhood. I was using women bearing children as an example of something that women do that men do not. That has nothing to do with the Priesthood as it is being related here in this forum. Women understand the Priesthood and their part in it much better after going through the temple. We each have callings in the Lord's kingdom. No one has been slighted. I do not need the weight of the Priesthood which the men hold, along with what I already have. My life is full and I am not missing out on anything.

Josie

[snipe123]

<div class='quotemain'>What does me being a woman have to do with it?

Everything.

If there were a majority (which is what I said) of women unhappy about not having the priesthood, we would hear more about it

When? Where? How?

I do not know a single Mormon woman who is upset about not having the priesthood

And that proves what? Perhaps that no Mormon woman, who has an issue with not holding the Priesthood, feels comfortable personally discussing the subject with you?

I have met a few...very few

"very few" what?

.the question is really pointless anyway, since its impossible to answer the question without surveying every woman in the church

Then you admit your response to the question, which was: "FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority." was rash and wrong, as not every female member has been surveyed.

...not likely to ever see such a survey, since poles are not conducted when formulating church policy...

And thus you'll never likely know the answer to the question, again making your bold exclamation of "FALSE" too hasty and reactionary.

I have no opinion as to whether LDS women are upset about not holding the Priesthood. The issue I am addressing is to whom these women would tell if they were upset about it.

That's why it matters that you're a man. There are LDS women out there who are upset about it, and you, and most other men are likely the last person they would tell. Busy Priesthood holders are more likely to respond with Six's words than not, though hopefully without his Rigdon-like need for demonstrative superiority.

Other men, of course, would be far more receptive; however, ultimately the answer would be the same.

So it does matter that you're a man. It's not an insult. It's just a reality. Most LDS women are not going to seek you out and confide in you their true feelings about their issues with the Priesthood. Why would they?

Elphaba

So since your a woman you somehow have your finger on the pulse of this issue and are somehow more qualified to comment on this? Me not being a man has everything to do with it?Your not having an opinion on the subject...okay...so why do you assume mine might be wrong on the basis that I am a man?

That just is not true...this is a church issue, not men v.s. women...Which is more reasonable to say? Most LDS women are fine with it, or most LDS women are not? That is obvious from a reasonable standpoint. We will never have difinitive proof on the question as I should have said, but since we don't have women leaving the church in mass exodus over the issue, I would think it is reasonable to assume that most women are ok on this topic.

[CrimsonKairos]

Something that I think y'all are missing is that whenever the blessings of becoming queens and priestesses are mentioned, it's in the context of promised future blessings.

If all the men died tomorrow of the black plague, as it now stands in the Lord's Church:

No, you women cannot bless and pass the sacrament;

No, you women cannot baptize or confer the gift of the Holy Ghost;

No, you women cannot perform temple marriages or possess all the keys of the kingdom of God as the president of the Church does.

Now, could that change? Sure, the Lord can do anything he wants as far as I'm concerned. I just think this whole approach of, "In a way I have the priesthood, sort of, not like yours, but a fulness, even though I don't hold any offices or keys of Melchizedek or Aaronic priesthood, yet through temple marriage I receive a fulness of the priesthood, and will become a priestess in the next life, so that means I'm a priestess now, because I perform ordinances in the temple," is misleading and profitless.

Look, this whole thing is really simple. We needn't do the pendulum prance, where one side swings so far in one direction that the other side yanks us back to the opposite extreme. The truth is in the middle.

Women perform initiatories in the temple. They do so after having been set apart by Melchizedek priesthood holders authorized to perform such settings apart. These female temple workers thus act with God's approval as evidenced by their official setting apart.

Does this mean they have any of the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood? You'd be hard pressed to prove the affirmative. Joseph Smith said all priesthood is Melchizedek (which, remember, is just a place-holder for the true name which is "The Holy Priesthood After The Order Of The Son Of God"). So if you're claiming that women have some sort of priesthood, but it's not Melchizedek office or keys, then what the heck are you talking about?

The scriptures don't mention a "third" priesthood, or priestesshood. I think we're confusing the issue here. You all are basing your views on what I think is a fallacious syllogism, to wit:

1.) The priesthood is the authority to act in the name of God;

2.) Women are authorized to perform initiatory ordinances in the temple; therefore...

3.) Women hold the priesthood.

Not everyone who is authorized to act for God holds the priesthood. Tons of callings in the ward include being set apart with authority to fill your calling: sunday school teacher; relief society presidency; the various committees; etc... But none of those settings apart involve the conferral of any amount of priesthood authority.

In other words, not all authority is priesthood authority. Priesthood authority is a very specific authority given for the very specific purpose of administering very specific ordinances and presiding over and governing the exercise of all priesthood keys and offices.

When women are set apart with authority to perform initiatories, this does not automatically translate into "they hold the priesthood."

I won't get into the actual wording of the initiatory itself, any more than I would the endowment. I was a veil worker at the Seattle Temple for a year and a half, and learned alot about the ordinances therein. I am shortly going to be returning to work in the temple now that my dad's well enough that I can attend Church again.

I think this whole discussion is misleading. Let's say it like this, which is really what's going on:

Women are authorized by the Melchizedek priesthood, to perform initiatory ordinances in the temple.

Now as for the other issue of having the priesthood through the act of temple marriage, I'm really not interested in debating that.

God never gives us the priesthood just to "hold." He gives it with an oath and covenant that we will use it righteously to build up His kingdom. If motherhood equates to fatherhood (and motherhood does not equate to priesthood), then you can hardly claim that bearing children is exercising some sort of priesthood in building up God's kingdom.

So for women who do not become set apart initiatory workers in the temple, but receive "the priesthood" through temple marriage, how does God instruct them to "use" it?

[Annabelli]

CrimsonKairos: Whenever I have asked for a Priesthood blessing for something in my home and the Priesthood holder says no, I take that to mean that the Lord has also said no. I do not call someone else in the Priesthood and ask them to administer the blessing. I also do not perform the ordinance myself just because I want it.

I believe that if there is not Priesthood available that I should rely on faith & prayer.

[CrimsonKairos]

I think your perspective is healthy and in harmony with the present order of the Lord's Church. Emphasis on "present." The Lord can change anything he wants in his Church. He just hasn't yet. So why get our panties in a knot over it?

Well actually, while I don't physically wear panties, I wear them by virtue of my marriage to my wife, and hence claim all the benefits of said panties, including but not limited to looking dang sexy.

p.s. I'm not married, the above was but a lighthearted jest. B)

[snipe123]

CrimsonKairos: Whenever I have asked for a Priesthood blessing for something in my home and the Priesthood holder says no, I take that to mean that the Lord has also said no. I do not call someone else in the Priesthood and ask them to administer the blessing. I also do not perform the ordinance myself just because I want it.

I believe that if there is not Priesthood available that I should rely on faith & prayer.

This question is not a critical one...I am wondering why a priesthood holder would tell you "no" when asking for a blessing? I can't imagine witholding a blessing from someone who asked for one...Has that happened to you often?

[Palerider]

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The amount of talk we have currently have going on about this subject seems pointless to me. I am wondering if I am a minority on the way I feel about this.

I have a question. True or False.

"Women in the LDS Church are upset that they do not currently have the Priesthood"

FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority.

How do you know? Are you a woman?

Elphaba

well well well.....judging by your response.....I guess I should not respond to this either.....cause according to your other comments, what would I know???? ....

[Elphaba]

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The amount of talk we have currently have going on about this subject seems pointless to me. I am wondering if I am a minority on the way I feel about this.

I have a question. True or False.

"Women in the LDS Church are upset that they do not currently have the Priesthood"

FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority.

How do you know? Are you a woman?

Elphaba

well well well.....judging by your response.....I guess I should not respond to this either.....cause according to your other comments, what would I know???? ....

You sort of ommitted some of the important parts, PR.

So, are you saying you do know someting? Are women flocking to you to discuss their feelings about the PH?

"tis true, PR is my master, and I am his unworthy grasshopper.

Elphie

[Palerider]

No Emma.....not saying that at all.....was going to make some remarks....but you seemed to have chatised one male......just wanted to make sure I was not walking on forbidden soil.......

[Elphaba]

Well actually, while I don't physically wear panties, I wear them by virtue of my marriage to my wife, and hence claim all the benefits of said panties, including but not limited to looking dang sexy.

Elphaba

[sixpacktr]

Once again, somehow all of the women of the church are just afraid to talk to the men because they would just put them down 'in their place' and poo-poo their questions.

Give me a break. A couple of you certainly have a warped image of PH holders.

So since I'm a man I have no clue? No, I rather believe that YOU all think that because you are on the road to apostasy that ALL women must be the same. Talk about juxtaposing your own inadequacies and doubts on others...

[Palerider]

Once again, somehow all of the women of the church are just afraid to talk to the men because they would just put them down 'in their place' and poo-poo their questions.

Give me a break. A couple of you certainly have a warped image of PH holders.

So since I'm a man I have no clue? No, I rather believe that YOU all think that because you are on the road to apostasy that ALL women must be the same. Talk about juxtaposing your own inadequacies and doubts on others...

I will say this......alot of women....and I mean alot.....in the LDS church and out of the LDS church can't talk with their husbands because they are not good listeners.....and I also know some have the same problem with their Priesthood Leaders.....This is why the Relief Society President is a great 3rd councilor for a Bishop. When I felt like a Sister would not open up to me...I would speak with the RS President and ask for her help.....

[a-train]

I can't listen to my wife sometimes. It's like her lips are moving, but I don't hear anything.

-a-train

[Palerider]

I can't listen to my wife sometimes. It's like her lips are moving, but I don't hear anything.

-a-train

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....

[Jason]

I think your perspective is healthy and in harmony with the present order of the Lord's Church. Emphasis on "present." The Lord can change anything he wants in his Church. He just hasn't yet. So why get our panties in a knot over it?

Well actually, while I don't physically wear panties, I wear them by virtue of my marriage to my wife, and hence claim all the benefits of said panties, including but not limited to looking dang sexy.

p.s. I'm not married, the above was but a lighthearted jest. B)

Some women like men wearing their panties.....or so I've heard. B)

[Elphaba]

I will say this......alot of women....and I mean alot.....in the LDS church and out of the LDS church can't talk with their husbands because they are not good listeners.....and I also know some have the same problem with their Priesthood Leaders.....This is why the Relief Society President is a great 3rd councilor for a Bishop. When I felt like a Sister would not open up to me...I would speak with the RS President and ask for her help.....

I knew there was something I liked about you!

Honestly Pale, that's all I was trying to say. It's true outside of Church as well. It's Venus and Mars!

But when you take a Priesthood leader who is honestly trying to the best he can, but is so busy he has less time to listen, you're really not going to know if the women did have issues with the Priesthood.

Once again I am NOT saying they do. I just think the communication lines on that particular issue would be extremely thin. Just MHO.

Elphaba

[Palerider]

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I will say this......alot of women....and I mean alot.....in the LDS church and out of the LDS church can't talk with their husbands because they are not good listeners.....and I also know some have the same problem with their Priesthood Leaders.....This is why the Relief Society President is a great 3rd councilor for a Bishop. When I felt like a Sister would not open up to me...I would speak with the RS President and ask for her help.....

I knew there was something I liked about you!

Honestly Pale, that's all I was trying to say. It's true outside of Church as well. It's Venus and Mars!

But when you take a Priesthood leader who is honestly trying to the best he can, but is so busy he has less time to listen, you're really not going to know if the women did have issues with the Priesthood.

Once again I am NOT saying they do. I just think the communication lines on that particular issue would be extremely thin. Just MHO.

Elphaba

I read that book too.....Mars and Venus............good book

[Snow]

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The amount of talk we have currently have going on about this subject seems pointless to me. I am wondering if I am a minority on the way I feel about this.

I have a question. True or False.

"Women in the LDS Church are upset that they do not currently have the Priesthood"

FALSE...when speaking of the vast majority.

How do you know? Are you a woman?

Elphaba

As if the posters ability to understand the sentiments of others is dependent on the poster's gender.... I mean reaaalllly.

Do you then maintain - as your post implies - that because you are a woman you understand what the majority of women think?

As an Endowed, Married-Sealed in the Temple wife, I already hold the priesthold in tandem with my Endowed, Married-Sealed in the Temple husband.

For all of you women who are so quick to repeat the oft repeated thus it is now such a cliche - "I have enough responsibilites and I don't want the preisthood" - maybe you should go do some more Initiatory's and this time pay real close attention to what all is being said. Then do a couple endowment sessions and pay even closer attention.

The endowed/sealed in marriage women in the church DO have the preisthood.

Could you please provide a official statement from a current general authority in an official publication that confirms your point of view?

I bet not.

Answer me this Six, what happens when there are no men in the church - lets say they are ill, wounded, dead - and the women gather together on Sunday for church. Should all those women and young children be bereft of the healing and blessings of the sacrament? No - in cases such as those, the endowed women can bless and pass the sacrament can they not??

I don't know. What does the Church Handbook of Instructions say?

What does the Doctrine and Covenants say?

What does any current General Authority in his official capacity as spokesman say?

You seem to think that because it makes sense to YOU, then it must be true. To be clear, YOU do not set doctrine, policy or procedure. Please provide official current promulgation that supports your view.

[a-train]

In April 1842, Joseph Smith addressed the Relief Society and spoke on the subject of 'some little foolish things [that] were circulating in the society, against some sisters not doing right in laying hands on the sick.' (History of the Church V4:603)

President Smith quoted Mark 16:15-18: 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.'

Church history records His remarks: 'No matter who believeth, these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils, &c., should follow all that believe whether male or female. He asked the society if they could not see by this sweeping promise, that wherein they are ordained, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority, which is conferred on them; and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let everything roll on.'

Church history goes on: 'Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick, he further remarked, there could be no devil in it, if God gave his sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water; it is no sin for anybody to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration.'

Now, does this mean that these women do these things by 'the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood'? No, they don't need to. Do they do it in the name of Jesus Christ? Of course! They are qualified and possess the rights associated therewith as believers in Jesus Christ.

Still, let us not be brash toward those who hold the sentiment that God delivers the keys of the Priesthood to the Church and that 'the faithful members of the Relief Society should receive them in connection with their husbands'.

-a-train

[Snow]

Now, does this mean that these women do these things by 'the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood'? No, they don't need to. Do they do it in the name of Jesus Christ? Of course! They are qualified and possess the rights associated therewith as believers in Jesus Christ.

Hear, hear.

Still, let us not be brash toward those who hold the sentiment that God delivers the keys of the Priesthood to the Church and that 'the faithful members of the Relief Society should receive them in connection with their husbands'.

-a-train

Not according to LDS doctrine.

Now - the President and Prophet of the Church does not say so - what makes you think that you have a superior opinion to his?

[Gaia]

Church history goes on: 'Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick, he further remarked, there could be no devil in it, if God gave his sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water; it is no sin for anybody to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration.'

Now, does this mean that these women do these things by 'the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood'?

GAIA:

Not at all -- And i've never suggested anything like that. In fact, Healing is a GIFT OF THE SPIRIT, which Gifts are supposed to be available to all worthy members.

However, it's also true that women are (and have been for over 50 years) DISCOURAGED from exercising that Gift by LDS leaders:

In 1946, then-Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith wrote the letter to the RS Presidency, which ended the era during which women freely exercised the Gifts of the Spirit, including Healing --- to which they'd always had access and which Joseph Smith had vigorously approved.

Instead, he said that women should "send for the elders of the Chruch to come and administer to the sick and afflicted."

(Joseph Fielding Smith Letter to Belle Spafford, Marriane C Sharpe and Gertrude R Garff, 29 July 1946, in Clark, _Messages of the First Prsidency_ 4:314; also Derr, Cannon, Beecher, _Women of Covenant_ 220-221.

If you want to know on what basis i think women do have Priesthood, please read Post # 56, here:

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=9832&st=45

Blessings --

~GAia

Now - the President and Prophet of the Church does not say so - what makes you think that you have a superior opinion to his?

GAIA:

Hmm, i've always been told that Mormons do NOT beleive in the notion of Infallibility......

With all due respect to President Hinckley -- Are you suggesting that it's impossible for him to be in error?

And are you suggesting that there is something wrong with questioning? Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other Prophets certainly didn't think so....

[a-train]

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Now, does this mean that these women do these things by 'the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood'? No, they don't need to. Do they do it in the name of Jesus Christ? Of course! They are qualified and possess the rights associated therewith as believers in Jesus Christ.

Hear, hear.

Still, let us not be brash toward those who hold the sentiment that God delivers the keys of the Priesthood to the Church and that 'the faithful members of the Relief Society should receive them in connection with their husbands'.

-a-train

Not according to LDS doctrine.

Now - the President and Prophet of the Church does not say so - what makes you think that you have a superior opinion to his?

Snow, respecftully, that sentiment is word for word what is recorded on page 604, volume 4 of History of the Church and is attributed to the President and Prophet of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr..

It says: 'He spoke of delivering the keys of the Priesthood to the Church, and said that the faithful members of the Relief Society should receive them in connection with their husbands, that the Saints whose integrity has been tried and proved faithful, might know how to ask the Lord and receive an answer; for according to his prayers, God had appointed him elsewhere.'

-a-train

[Gaia]

Snow, respecftully, that sentiment is word for word what is recorded on page 604, volume 4 of History of the Church and is attributed to the President and Prophet of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr..

GAIA:

I'm afraid some folks just aren't interested in the facts or quotes, ATrain.

But it was a worthy effort, and i'm sure those who are interested and open, appreciated it. :)

Thanks --

~Gaia