What Causes Loss of Testimony?

[NightSG]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:27 PM, MormonGator said:

It's probably best to ask people who have actually lost their testimony. 

BURN THE HERETIC!!!

[wenglund]

20 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

Similar for me. One day I had this brilliant idea that I didn't have to keep trying to believe, what I didn't believe. I wasn't terrified. I was happy as I'd ever been in my life. Felt more like a ten ton weight was lifted and I could finally breath. 

I haven't felt the need to believe what I didn't believe, though reason has suggested that growth in spiritual as well as temporal faith/knowledge is an active rather than passive enterprise.

The slight exception to this rule was as a young child I didn't believe that yukky vegetables would help me grow up to be big and strong. I figured that sweet things like candy were what was best for me. Fortunately, I trusted that my parents knew better, and while I wasn't exactly forced to believe, I was somewhat forced to eat my vegetables, and eventually I grew up to be big and strong and thereby came to believe.

In principle, I have had similar experiences as an adult. For one, I couldn't see God, and I wondered that if he existed then why didn't he show himself?.I figured that if I could see God, or be given some empirical sign of his existence, then I could easily believe--seeing is believing. Fortunately, I trusted that my spiritual leaders knew better, and as I have matured in the gospel, I wasn't forced to believe that God existed, though I have since discovered that I had things exactly backwards. Believing is seeing. By exercising faith and growing therein, I have increasingly come to see God.

As Paul explained, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see as if through a glass darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Cor. 13:11-13) 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

20 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Believing is seeing.

Tying this back to the topic of perspective as it relates to loss or increase in faith, the question was asked elsewhere: 

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I was listening to the D&C while out walking today. D&C 25:4 is speaking to Emma Smith, and says: "Murmur not because of the things which thou hast not seen, for they are withheld from thee and from the world, which is wisdom in me in a time to come."

Why would it be in the Lord's wisdom to withhold seeing things from Emma? Could it be because her condemnation for not following the Church after to husband's death would be that much more if she had greater knowledge?

Several respondents answered in the affirmative. Here was my take:  "Another explanation might be that the primary purposes of mortality (the world) is to have spiritual things withheld and hidden.The veil exists so we can walk by faith rather than by sight, and thereby, in a time to come, "see" things better than if they were always before our eyes. This is counter-intuitive to mortals who assume that seeing is believing, but such is the profound wisdom of God--believing is seeing, as the brother of Jared can attest."

Lose of faith, then, produces loss of spiritual sight--i.e. loss of proper perspective and eventually spiritual blindness.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 9, 2017 by wenglund

[anatess2]

On 2/7/2017 at 5:07 PM, Godless said:

That's a difficult issue to tackle. Based on the example I listed above, many people would say that, by removing the concept of eternal progression from the equation, my understanding was decreased by my change in perspective. I would counter that dogmatic philosophies offer a perspective that creates an understanding with no rational, quantifiable basis. There are hundreds of religions in the world, hundreds of different belief sets surrounding our eternal existence. All because we fear dying. Our consciousness as a species demands a worldview in which we can overcome death, even if that worldview has no rational basis. But what if a new perspective reveals the fear of death to be irrational? The concept of eternity, in all its shapes and forms, suddenly seems rather unnecessary. In that sense, the simplification of my understanding of mortality leads to a better understanding of it. I still fear death (I'm human after all), but I recognize that it's an irrational fear that doesn't justify the need for something more. I've accepted the finality of my existence when death does come, because all of my reason and common sense tells me to. 

I don't know about this fear of death as the driving force of ALL belief.  I don't fear death.  It is what it is.  My consciousness demands a worldview in which I demand a purpose.  It is just not comprehensible to me that I would exist with rational thought just so I can die and that's the end.  There's got to be a purpose that drives human activity.  And I would posit that the Meaning of Life is more of a driving force to Faith than the Fear of Death.

But that's just my perspective.

[Guest]

On 2/7/2017 at 4:07 PM, Godless said:

All because we fear dying. Our consciousness as a species demands a worldview in which we can overcome death, even if that worldview has no rational basis.

This was never my driving force.  I never feared death as an adult.  I realized it would be inconvenient for those I left behind.  But I never feared it in my adult life.  I might have feared dying which seemed like a very unpleasant process for most of us.  And belief in God or not, I still think it's an unpleasant process.  But death itself?  Nope.

[wenglund]

53 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I don't know about this fear of death as the driving force of ALL belief.  I don't fear death.  It is what it is.  My consciousness demands a worldview in which I demand a purpose.  It is just not comprehensible to me that I would exist with rational thought just so I can die and that's the end.  There's got to be a purpose that drives human activity.  And I would posit that the Meaning of Life is more of a driving force to Faith than the Fear of Death.

But that's just my perspective.

Exquisite point.

I would simply add that there is a human drive for meaningfulness as well as purpose. And, there isn't much meaning to be derived from viewing ourselves and our loved-ones as but mere lumps of matter, a collection of atoms arranged from conception and rearranged at death.

Shakespeare addresses this point eloquently through Hamlet as he ponders the skull of Yorick. and queries his friend Horatio if the empty remains of a court jester would be the same for great kings. First, he wonders what happened to the essence that was Yorick:

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Let me see [Takes the skull] Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio: a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy: he hath    borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! my gorge rises at it. Here hung those lips that I have kissed I know not how oft. Where be your gibes now? your gambols? your songs? your flashes of merriment, that were wont to set the table on a roar? Not one now, to mock your own grinning? 

And, if there be no meaningful essence remaining of a mere court jester, what then of great kings from days past:

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" No, faith, not a jot; but to follow him thither with modesty enough, and likelihood to lead it: as thus: Alexander died, Alexander was buried, Alexander returneth into dust; the dust is earth; of earth we make loam; and why of that loam, whereto he was converted, might they not stop a beer-barrel?    Imperious Caesar, dead and turn'd to clay, Might stop a hole to keep the wind away. O, that that earth, which kept the world in awe, Should patch a wall to expel the winter flaw!"

Yet, while Hamlet can make such pedestrian observations about acquaintances and historical figures, what of the people he and others dearly love? I will leave you all to find out in the poignant exchange between Laertes and Hamlet upon learning of the death of Ophelia (she is the sister to Laertes and the love interest of Hamlet): see HERE --scroll down to 210

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

22 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yet, while Hamlet can make such pedestrian observations about acquaintances and historical figures, what of the people he and others dearly love? I will leave you all to find out in the poignant exchange between Laertes and Hamlet upon learning of the death of Ophelia (she is the sister to Laertes and the love interest of Hamlet): see HERE --scroll down to 210

Said another way, if we are but dust, both in life and death, then why is their no searing pathos and grief for the dry powder wiped weakly from fine furniture and swept from the floor?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest Godless]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I don't know about this fear of death as the driving force of ALL belief.  I don't fear death.  It is what it is. 

 

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This was never my driving force.  I never feared death as an adult.  I realized it would be inconvenient for those I left behind.  But I never feared it in my adult life.  I might have feared dying which seemed like a very unpleasant process for most of us.  And belief in God or not, I still think it's an unpleasant process.  But death itself?  Nope.

Religious constructs came about as homo sapiens began to process the world in his primitive yet self-aware mind and felt the need to explain the things he was processing. Part of that included trying to answer the questions of why we live, why we die, and what comes next. That is how religion was born, albeit in a much more primitive form than we now know. My statement about fear of death was primarily a reference to the origin of religion. Its application to modern religion is still valid, though certainly diminished through both the complexity of modern religious dogma and advancements in scientific knowledge to replace what religion thought it had figured out. 

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My consciousness demands a worldview in which I demand a purpose.  It is just not comprehensible to me that I would exist with rational thought just so I can die and that's the end.  There's got to be a purpose that drives human activity.  And I would posit that the Meaning of Life is more of a driving force to Faith than the Fear of Death.

But that's just my perspective.

 

That's perfectly understandable. It is our nature as intelligent beings to believe that our existence serves a purpose beyond our mortal constraints. It's an essential part of our ego as the most intellectually evolved species on Earth. In that sense, I believe our intellect is both a blessing and a curse. It has allowed us to become the most dominant species in the animal kingdom, but it also leaves us prone to overthinking our mortality. I would argue that intelligence and consciousness aren't enough to save us from the finality of death. They are merely survival mechanisms that have allowed us to come out on top in the great global survival competition.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Godless

[Anddenex]

On 2/8/2017 at 9:43 AM, yjacket said:

One of the things I have learned in live is that the first step to having faith is the choice to have faith.

We have to choose to have faith and then after time our choice will be richly rewarded.  Sometimes the choice without the reward can last a very, very long time-maybe years or maybe even most of our life.  But eventually, that choice to believe is rewarded.

1 Nephi 10: 17, 19 -- These scripture verses seem to coincide with your response, especially in comparison to how Nephi's brothers responded to their father.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Anddenex

[Anddenex]

On 2/7/2017 at 0:17 PM, wenglund said:

Loss pf faith is often a product of losing proper perspective. If interested, I can explain the various ways I mean this, though I would be interested to first learn your perspectives

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What are reasons that would cause a loss of testimony?

1) Moroni 10: 22 -- And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity. (emphasis added)
2) Doctrine & Covenants 121: 35 -- Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men (as has been mentioned)
3) 1 Nephi 10: 17 -- loss of desire
4) Fixation on a specific manner which God should give you an answer, rather than humble acceptance of whatever answer is given
5) More concerned in seeing through "natural" eyes, rather than "spiritual" eyes (As has been mentioned "fear of death" in my youth is actually what caused my "doubt" because I could not "see" with my "natural" eyes after this life. Fear of death did not cause me to seek religion, the opposite was true for me, it was a catalyst for the adversary to shake my faith because I could not see eternal life with my natural eyes.)
6) Improper Comparison -- I thought it was President Eyring who said (but can't find quote) that comparisons will make one either vain or bitter (stemmed from envy)
7) Lack of forgiveness -- those who are unable to forgive have a harder time experiencing the mercy of forgiveness themselves
8) Loss of self-worth -- often a correlation with improper comparing
9) Lusts of the flesh
10) Definitely as you have shared, loss of proper perspective
11) Pride -- particularly a "state of opposition" against God's chosen prophets, seers, and revelators. Statements which have been said in public forums/walls, "What they are doing is just wrong." Assumption that God would reveal something different to an individual than he has a combined unity of those chosen with keys and stewardship. Failing to learn from scriptural history.

I am sure there are more, but this should suffice.

[Guest MormonGator]

35 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

What are reasons that would cause a loss of testimony?

1) Moroni 10: 22 -- And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity. (emphasis added)
2) Doctrine & Covenants 121: 35 -- Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men (as has been mentioned)
3) 1 Nephi 10: 17 -- loss of desire
4) Fixation on a specific manner which God should give you an answer, rather than humble acceptance of whatever answer is given
5) More concerned in seeing through "natural" eyes, rather than "spiritual" eyes (As has been mentioned "fear of death" in my youth is actually what caused my "doubt" because I could not "see" with my "natural" eyes after this life. Fear of death did not cause me to seek religion, the opposite was true for me, it was a catalyst for the adversary to shake my faith because I could not see eternal life with my natural eyes.)
6) Improper Comparison -- I thought it was President Eyring who said (but can't find quote) that comparisons will make one either vain or bitter (stemmed from envy)
7) Lack of forgiveness -- those who are unable to forgive have a harder time experiencing the mercy of forgiveness themselves
8) Loss of self-worth -- often a correlation with improper comparing
9) Lusts of the flesh
10) Definitely as you have shared, loss of proper perspective
11) Pride -- particularly a "state of opposition" against God's chosen prophets, seers, and revelators. Statements which have been said in public forums/walls, "What they are doing is just wrong." Assumption that God would reveal something different to an individual than he has a combined unity of those chosen with keys and stewardship. Failing to learn from scriptural history.

I am sure there are more, but this should suffice.

All this is true my friend, but I'd like to add more:

How people are treated by other members in the church is vital to keeping a testimony alive. All of what you said is important, but too often I see some members (key word, some) using what you said as an excuse for their own questionable treatment of members. Ask yourself: if you were having testimony problems, what would make it easier? A kind, loving ward full of people who check in on you and make sure you are okay? Or a cold ward that ignores you then blames your loss of testimony of the above? 

For the record, I can't imagine (in my wildest dreams!) @Anddenex treating anyone how I described. Just adding to his fantastic post 

[Blueskye2]

12 hours ago, wenglund said:

I haven't felt the need to believe what I didn't believe, though reason has suggested that growth in spiritual as well as temporal faith/knowledge is an active rather than passive enterprise.

The slight exception to this rule was as a young child I didn't believe that yukky vegetables would help me grow up to be big and strong. I figured that sweet things like candy were what was best for me. Fortunately, I trusted that my parents knew better, and while I wasn't exactly forced to believe, I was somewhat forced to eat my vegetables, and eventually I grew up to be big and strong and thereby came to believe.

In principle, I have had similar experiences as an adult. For one, I couldn't see God, and I wondered that if he existed then why didn't he show himself?.I figured that if I could see God, or be given some empirical sign of his existence, then I could easily believe--seeing is believing. Fortunately, I trusted that my spiritual leaders knew better, and as I have matured in the gospel, I wasn't forced to believe that God existed, though I have since discovered that I had things exactly backwards. Believing is seeing. By exercising faith and growing therein, I have increasingly come to see God.

As Paul explained, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see as if through a glass darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Cor. 13:11-13) 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What I shared happened ages ago, cuz I'm older than dirt. Many paths and whatnots and even a stint at reexamining the religion in which I was raised. Most of my life I was an atheist, with strong leanings towards nihilism, but then I left both atheism and nihilism behind about a decade ago.

Many times, people of many beliefs or no belief, have provided "answers" that seem quite profound to themselves, yet are an example of childishness to me. I'm absolutely sure I've been on the giving end of that dynamic. So, no worries. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Blueskye2]

On 2/8/2017 at 2:53 PM, Carborendum said:

I felt it too.  But it was very temporary as I began questioning my new reality.  When I put it under the same microscope I put my earlier ideology, I found it no more enlightening than my previous one.  In fact, I found it hypocritical as well.

I don't really hold a belief that anyone has unbiased outlooks. That was the appeal of nihilism for me, all the world as an artificial construct.  But yeah, that loses its appeal when you reach where it must conclude.  I'm more of a live it to see where it goes, and have lived a lot of different faiths and no faith. No faith is really, quite a logical conclusion, more so than agnosticism, which is quite bizarre to me. Lol.

Anyway, I have no problem with your conclusion.  Be the best Mormon you can be, with the full support of some random stranger on the internet. Woohoo!  I just don't believe what you believe, that's all. 

[wenglund]

18 hours ago, Godless said:

Religious constructs came about as homo sapiens began to process the world in his primitive yet self-aware mind and felt the need to explain the things he was processing. Part of that included trying to answer the questions of why we live, why we die, and what comes next. That is how religion was born, albeit in a much more primitive form than we now know. 

This is a plausible conjecture, though one may just as easily posit that this conjecture was born of the need by atheists to explain away the pervasive nature of religion and use the physical to explain away the metaphysical.It is a way to preserve atheistic beliefs.

I personally welcome these kinds of faith-based musings since they provide the seeds that may grow into knowledge, either by eventually proving the seed is bad or good, as Alma explains.

The point being that we keep our minds and hearts open and growing. Who knows what marvelous and perspective altering things may be over the next rise as we all climb the epistemic mountain. Dogmatism, either secular or religious, is the death of learning. I will explain further when I get a moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

 

It is my observation that when a person determines to transition for “light” to “darkness” that as they move from the light to darkness – that they lose their testimonies and in so doing come to think that they never believed in the light.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

It is my observation that when a person determines to transition for “light” to “darkness” that as they move from the light to darkness – that they lose their testimonies and in so doing come to think that they never believed in the light.

 

The Traveler

Great point. 100% agree. 

[Blackmarch]

To answe the title it depends where one places/builds their heart.

[wenglund]

deleted. Reswponed to wrong quote

Edited February 13, 2017 by wenglund

[wenglund]

On 2/9/2017 at 11:39 PM, Blueskye2 said:

What I shared happened ages ago, cuz I'm older than dirt. Many paths and whatnots and even a stint at reexamining the religion in which I was raised. Most of my life I was an atheist, with strong leanings towards nihilism, but then I left both atheism and nihilism behind about a decade ago.

Many times, people of many beliefs or no belief, have provided "answers" that seem quite profound to themselves, yet are an example of childishness to me. I'm absolutely sure I've been on the giving end of that dynamic. So, no worries. 

We all have aspects of our hearts and mind which have yet to mature even for those of us older than dirt. When it comes to things like string theory, computer programming, brain surgery, gourmet cooking, sculpting, and even healthy male-female relationships, etc., I am but a mere babe. These developmental deficits help keep me humble and cognizant that no matter how old I am, I still have much room to grow.

For that matter, some of the areas where I thought I had matured (like spirituality), I have recently experienced quantum leaps that tell me how far from maturity I really was. This, too, keeps me humble and excited like a child for the wonders that life, eternal or otherwise, may yet unfold to me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Can firm faith and convictions cause a loss of faith and conviction?

Can a compelling and solid perspective cause a loss of proper perspective?

Might satisfying, though easy "answers" get in the way of learning and understanding?

 

There is a reason that creedalism (dogma) is an abomination before God. Secularist and religionists alike, members as well as non-members, are vulnerable to the mind and heart limiting effects of dogma, which like a stiff reed, may break rather than bend with the stiff winds of new information. 

This precept can be depicted graphically, and I hope to do so in my next post when I get a moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Can firm faith and convictions cause a loss of faith and conviction?

The (to me) apparent answer is, no. I suppose however there is more to your question than revealed by the question itself. Do you mean to ask something more than what your words denote?

[Anddenex]

24 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Can firm faith and convictions cause a loss of faith and conviction?

Can a compelling and solid perspective cause a loss of proper perspective?

Might satisfying, though easy "answers" get in the way of learning and understanding?

 

There is a reason that creedalism (dogma) is an abomination before God. Secularist and religionists alike, members as well as non-members, are vulnerable to the mind and heart limiting effects of dogma, which like a stiff reed, may break rather than bend with the stiff winds of new information. 

This precept can be depicted graphically, and I hope to do so in my next post when I get a moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Can firm faith and convictions cause a loss of faith and conviction? My initial thought is no, as to my understanding of faith. If you remove faith from this statement and only deal with conviction, yes. True faith is grounded in truth, and thus new information will not cause a loss of faith if the new information is indeed truth and the individual is exercising proper faith.

Can a compelling and solid perspective cause a loss of proper perspective? Yes, if the perspective isn't based in truth. The concept of "looking beyond the mark" or ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth enters my mind and heart.

Might satisfying, though easy "answers" get in the way of learning and understanding? Only if we aren't willing to search further. An easy answer may suffice the soul, but may not have the long lasting change or affect to continue.

 

[skalenfehl]

One loses his testimony when one ceases to obey the Lord's commandments. If he obtained a witness, it was the result of obeying some commandment. 

[wenglund]

21 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Can firm faith and convictions cause a loss of faith and conviction? My initial thought is no, as to my understanding of faith. If you remove faith from this statement and only deal with conviction, yes. True faith is grounded in truth, and thus new information will not cause a loss of faith if the new information is indeed truth and the individual is exercising proper faith.

So, to you, there isn't false faith, or faith in false things? Didn't people at one point have faith that the earth is flat and that the earth was the center of the universe? 

What about faith in things that are "true" only to a certain extent or in certain respects? Can people have faith in the arm of flesh? Can they have faith in Newtonian physics?

More to the point, doesn't much of the New Testament address the challenge of transitioning people who had firm faith in the old law to developing faith in the new law? If their faith was firm in what had been "true" for hundreds of years, might that not prevent them from having faith in what Christ was then telling them was true, and thereby loss faith in Christ?  

What I am getting at is cautioning against faith becoming so firm (dogmatic) that it prevents further growth in faith, and may even result in a loss of faith. For example, several decades ago not a few members had seemingly unwavering faith in God and church leaders, but their faith was either shaken or shattered upon learning that church leaders may have been fooled by the Mark Hoffman forgeries and that God had not revealed the ruse beforehand. Their faith in the principle of modern revelation and relative infallibility of General Authorities (i.e. they would never lead the church astray) was so firm or rigid as to not allow the wisdom of God in allowing leaders to be fooled.

Quote

Can a compelling and solid perspective cause a loss of proper perspective? Yes, if the perspective isn't based in truth. The concept of "looking beyond the mark" or ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth enters my mind and heart.

Agreed. However, as intimated above, it can also occur with perspectives that are based in truth. The perceived tension between science and religion being a case in point. Members with a compelling and solid perspective on evolution have lost faith in the creation narrative, and eventually lost faith in the church and God. The same is true for members who had a firm perspective of geology and the creation/flood narratives, and because the two sets couldn't be reconciled in their minds, faith in one of the two was shaken or lost--oft in favor of geology--causing a loss of proper perspective. 

Again, I am cautioning against dogmatism./creedalism. I will attempt to convey this graphically in the next several posts.

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Might satisfying, though easy "answers" get in the way of learning and understanding? Only if we aren't willing to search further. An easy answer may suffice the soul, but may not have the long lasting change or affect to continue.

Exactly.

Once again I am cautioning against dogmatism. Often quick and easy answers fool the receiver into believing that such answers are all there is, and nothing more is to be said or understood on the matter. For example, people who have queried about the nature of God may be given the quick and easy answer that "God is spirit" (Jn 4:24),  While this is true, if they hold dogmatically to that notion, they may not be willing to explore the truth that God has a body, and likely will ardently resist the notion, and fail to grasp that both can be compatibly true.

Solid faith and perspective derived from the easy answer that God is spirit, may cause a loss of faith and proper perspective and further understanding of God's nature as a Man.

This all attempts to examine how good and decent people, who are active in the gospel, and firm in the faith, can end up losing faith in the way they firmly hold to the faith.  

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

On 2/13/2017 at 11:04 AM, Mike said:

The (to me) apparent answer is, no. I suppose however there is more to your question than revealed by the question itself. Do you mean to ask something more than what your words denote?

Yes. The questions are intended to agitate our mental and emotional faculties and encourage in-depth pondering and debate. rather than solicit knee-jerk and easy answers. As indicated in my response to Anddenex above, the questions were intended to ultimately caution against the dangers of dogmatism/creedalism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-