"Making It" to the Celestial Kingdom

[Guest]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/am-i-good-enough-will-i-make-it?lang=eng

So, I'd like another go at this, since my last thread was hijacked.

My main point was that this talk describes some guidance on the balancing act that we mortals need to remember.  

1) Some worry so much that their fear and stress make them forget the message that Christ's message was "Peace. Be still."

2) Others are so lackadaisical about their lives, their callings, their Eternal progression, that they never really put forth the effort needed to become who they need to become.

I believe Elder Cornish did a good job of balancing these concepts.  Exaltation is not achieved by the "checklist" of things that we're often accused of.  It is not achieved by a balance of "good deeds" vs. "bad deeds", again as we're often accused of.  But really, that is the Christianity of Hollywood -- and most Americans.

Instead, Exaltation is about "becoming".  But it is not about becoming perfect (although it eventually will be).  It is about becoming the person that will keep going.  We never want to be in a place where we're satisfied.  We never want to be the person who says,"I've done enough."  At the same time we don't want to be the person who says,"I'll never be able to do enough, so why bother?"

The Telestial is just plain satisfied.  They'll do what they feel they have to.  Nothing more.

The Terrestrial is of people who are satisfied in Christ.  But they are not valiant because of it.  Like our recent friend here, they believe in Christ, but because nothing more is required, nothing more is really done.  Yes, they may spread the word.  But what word are they spreading?  "Just hear, believe, and be done." Nothing more?  Is this being "valiant in our testimony of Christ?"

The Celestial is of people who just keep going.  And this is where I believe the concept of "making it over the line" is a dangerous one.  It allows us to stop.  It allows us to say "that's enough."  How's that different than the Terrestrial?  The entire reason why the others have "an end to their kingdom" is that they believe "I've done enough."

It doesn't matter how far away we are from perfection.  All of us have a long way to go.  It is about being the person who will get up each time we fall.  It is about the willingness to (as Dr. Strange put it) lose again... and again... and again... but each time, he gets up again and presses forward with a steadfastness in Christ.  This is not the way of the Terrestrial or the Telestial.  But it is the way of the Celestial.

Never give in.  Never surrender.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

I agree. But while I do I cant help but to see the myriad of problems this issue brings up. I personally believe that everyone saved will be on a path of eventual exaltation.

[Traveler]

@Carborendum

Sometimes I believe we get “out of balance” because of I or ME problems.  The very question “Will I make the Celestial Kingdom?” is actually the wrong question.  The reason is because it is a question that tempts pride that takes the focus away from loving G-d and our fellow men to “over” loving and caring about ourselves.

The sad reality that is missed by many incomplete Christians is that salvation is not about me, my rewards, my salvation or even my becoming.  It is about service and sacrifice for others.  Therefore, the “what is in it for me” question should never be asked –example - “Am I good enough”.  Whatever the answer is to that question we will miss the forest for the trees.  As did the rich young man that asked Jesus what he lacked.  What so many miss in the scripture is that they think Jesus gave him another item to be checked off and they missed what Jesus was teaching. 

Many argue doctrine with the same spiritual blindness – trying to check off in their mind that they got the doctrine right and those that disagree got it wrong (thinking doctrine and not people is the importance of salvation (Celestial Kingdom).  This all reminds me of a driver ED. teacher I had in my youth when talking about defensive driving – he said that if we always wanted to be right that we would be dead right in demanding all follow the law and when we have the right-of-way – and the operative word is dead.

 

The Traveler

Edited April 25, 2017 by Traveler

[Guest]

I know we're not supposed to think of earning the Celestial Kingdom like we earn a college degree by completing checklists and tasks, but aren't there requirements for exaltation, like baptism, confirmation, endowment, and temple sealing? Don't you need to check those off in your existence to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? Or is it more like D&C 137 where the Lord says He will judge men for their hearts and what's in your heart matter the most?

[The Folk Prophet]

26 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

I know we're not supposed to think of earning the Celestial Kingdom like we earn a college degree 

We aren't?

26 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

but aren't there requirements for exaltation, like baptism, confirmation, endowment, and temple sealing?

Yes.

26 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Don't you need to check those off in your existence to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? 

Sort of. There is, of course work for the dead for those who did not have the opportunity in this life.

27 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Or is it more like D&C 137 where the Lord says He will judge men for their hearts and what's in your heart matter the most?

I'm not sure I see the difference. Would someone who's heart was in the right place who had been told by the Spirit of the truthfulness of the gospel decline doing these things?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I know we're not supposed to think of earning the Celestial Kingdom like we earn a college degree by completing checklists and tasks, but aren't there requirements for exaltation, like baptism, confirmation, endowment, and temple sealing? Don't you need to check those off in your existence to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? Or is it more like D&C 137 where the Lord says He will judge men for their hearts and what's in your heart matter the most?

Yes, in the end it will be whats in our hearts. At that point all who have the right heart will have entered into the necessary covenants.

[Guest]

If you want to compare college degrees with exaltation, that may be ok.  But understand exactly what you need to compare.

As an engineer I HAD TO go to college.  In doing so, I had homework, projects, papers, quizzes, tests and so forth.  And they were the only way of physically measuring what I learned (as inaccurately as such methodology may be).  But all that was required.  Did that make me an engineer?  No. Did I really learn stuff in school?  Did I retain it?  I'll tell you that there are a lot of recent grads that don't know diddly squat about what they were supposed to have gotten in school, much less the additional stuff you're supposed to learn in the practice.

The degree itself is just a piece of paper.  But the experience and learning I had through the process was worth something.  And most importantly, it allowed me to get a job that provided the necessary experience to become an engineer.  I had to spend another four years in the craft becoming an engineer before I could even take the exam to become licensed.  Yet another test.

Finally, the proof in the pudding was how I did in the world in actual practice.  Job after job, project after project, I learned more and more.  I practiced.  I became better.  At some point, I looked at my career and experience and realized how much I'd grown and learned.  I recognized I'd become the engineer I wanted to be.  The most important part of all that was the experience sufficient to make good judgments about a design.

As a senior engineer, I have to keep going back to the basics and re-learn all the calculations, all the tools, all the software.  But my most common function is to look at a final design and without even going through the calculations ask,"Does that look about right?"  The fact I can answer that without all the calculations is what makes me an experienced engineer.  And I continually gain more experience and continually learn more.

Compare that to 2 Nephi 31.  The degree is not the end goal.  It is the gate by which you should enter.  The strait and narrow path where we follow other senior individuals in our chosen field.  Then we need to endure to the end.  We keep marching forward feasting upon all the learning of our profession.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

Actually the college degree theory is interesting. My experience (which, as all of ours, is limited in some ways) is that a lot of people with Doctorate degrees are clueless about things when it comes to the real world. But...they did the required work, so they were given the degree. They did what they needed to qualify for the degree. Having "earned" it is subjective, and debatable.

Once could use that as an analogy for the atonement. We do what is required to qualify. But Christ grants us the "degree" based on having done what was required, not based on whether we "earned" it.

That, of course, is based on a whole bunch of semantics.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Actually the college degree theory is interesting. My experience (which, as all of ours, is limited in some ways) is that a lot of people with Doctorate degrees are clueless about things when it comes to the real world. But...they did the required work, so they were given the degree. They did what they needed to qualify for the degree. Having "earned" it is subjective, and debatable.

Once could use that as an analogy for the atonement. We do what is required to qualify. But Christ grants us the "degree" based on having done what was required, not based on whether we "earned" it.

That, of course, is based on a whole bunch of semantics.

In my analogy, the PhD's are the ones who continually do the checklist and do all the ordinances, but just don't live the gospel.  I had told of my SIL who was trying to find her testimony again by attending the temple three times a day.  Others here made a good point that she never even tried to serve someone.  She never actually DID anything to LIVE the gospel.  She eventually went off the deep end.

The Church offers the "degree" (i.e.- the earthly ordinances).  But Christ is the mentor who guides us throughout our lives. It is by learning from Him that we become who we need to be.  It is by following His example that makes us become the... well...  Christlike person we are supposed to become.

[Just_A_Guy]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, I'd like another go at this, since my last thread was hijacked.

I didn't read your OP; but did you know that the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon saw the deletion of five hundred and ninety one Oxford commas?  

Also--polygamy!!!!!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I didn't read your OP; but did you know that the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon saw the deletion of five hundred and ninety one Oxford commas?  

Also--polygamy!!!!!

That's it.  I'm sending in my resignation letter tonight.  Well, tomorrow.  Or sometime in the future when I feel sufficiently indignant and want to make a political statement.

[The Folk Prophet]

41 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

In my analogy, the PhD's are the ones who continually do the checklist and do all the ordinances, but just don't live the gospel.  I had told of my SIL who was trying to find her testimony again by attending the temple three times a day.  Others here made a good point that she never even tried to serve someone.  She never actually DID anything to LIVE the gospel.  She eventually went off the deep end.

The Church offers the "degree" (i.e.- the earthly ordinances).  But Christ is the mentor who guides us throughout our lives. It is by learning from Him that we become who we need to be.  It is by following His example that makes us become the... well...  Christlike person we are supposed to become.

Yeah. The degree idea is flawed in that doing the checklist is required for exaltation, but it is insufficient by itself.

[Traveler]

 

It is my personal opinion that many striving for the Celestial Kingdom have no real concept or idea what they will be doing when they get there – but they think they have a good idea and a long list of things that they will not be doing.  Before we can help others, we must put our own houses in order.  The problem is that what many think of as putting their house in order is what they think is the requirements we must accomplish to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

Baptism is not a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom (I know someone will now quote a scripture {out of context} to demonstrate that baptism is on the check list.)  Baptism does not qualify someone for the Celestial Kingdom.  The purpose of baptism is to get you on the path of service to love and help others.  It is to get over the hang ups of your past sins.  A means to put that behind you so you can focus on others (including G-d).  Thus, baptism is a sign to others that you have prepared yourself for divine service.   In short – if you have not accepted baptism (and other ordinances) you have not prepared yourself for divine service.  You are not someone that should be looked to for direction.  But then there are those that think that because they have checked off some things from their check list – they are qualified.

Jesus did not say that disciples are identified by ordinances nor did he say by doctrine or ability to quote scripture (including conference talks) – he did not even say they must belong to the correct church.  He said they are identified by love and compassion for others.  There is no check list – Jesus will personally make sure that anyone that loves and has compassion for others will be escorted by him into the Celestial Kingdom – if they desire such.  The other stuff - is the stuff that makes those that so think; to so think.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

It is my personal opinion that many striving for the Celestial Kingdom have no real concept or idea what they will be doing when they get there – but they think they have a good idea and a long list of things that they will not be doing.  Before we can help others, we must put our own houses in order.  The problem is that what many think of as putting their house in order is what they think is the requirements we must accomplish to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

Baptism is not a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom (I know someone will now quote a scripture {out of context} to demonstrate that baptism is on the check list.)  Baptism does not qualify someone for the Celestial Kingdom.  The purpose of baptism is to get you on the path of service to love and help others.  It is to get over the hang ups of your past sins.  A means to put that behind you so you can focus on others (including G-d).  Thus, baptism is a sign to others that you have prepared yourself for divine service.   In short – if you have not accepted baptism (and other ordinances) you have not prepared yourself for divine service.  You are not someone that should be looked to for direction.  But then there are those that think that because they have checked off some things from their check list – they are qualified.

Jesus did not say that disciples are identified by ordinances nor did he say by doctrine or ability to quote scripture (including conference talks) – he did not even say they must belong to the correct church.  He said they are identified by love and compassion for others.  There is no check list – Jesus will personally make sure that anyone that loves and has compassion for others will be escorted by him into the Celestial Kingdom – if they desire such.  The other stuff - is the stuff that makes those that so think; to so think.

 

The Traveler

So it is true that people will be judged for their hearts and works (how they loved their fellowman)

[zil]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

did you know that the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon saw the deletion of five hundred and ninety one Oxford commas?

WHAT!?  WHAT!?    Excuse me?  That's it!  Clearly the Book of Mormon isn't true (ly punctuated).  I can't even find the words.    I may need an appointment with the bishop (or at least a very fine-tipped red pen).  What is this world coming to?

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, zil said:

WHAT!?  WHAT!?    Excuse me?  That's it!  Clearly the Book of Mormon isn't true (ly punctuated).  I can't even find the words.    I may need an appointment with the bishop (or at least a very fine-tipped red pen).  What is this world coming to?

I haven't seen you this upset since when you found out I took wife number 4 to Jacksonville instead of you! 

(seriously, I got a flat tire IRL and had to wait for AAA for about an hour! Yikes!) 

[zil]

30 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I took wife number 4 to Jacksonville instead of you!

30 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

(seriously, I got a flat tire IRL and had to wait for AAA for about an hour! Yikes!) 

(See, if you'd taken me, I would have had the tire changed in under 15 minutes.)

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

 

(See, if you'd taken me, I would have had the tire changed in under 15 minutes.)

See world? I only made @zil third wife because of her mechanic skills. 

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

So it is true that people will be judged for their hearts and works (how they loved their fellowman)

I believe we judge ourselves.   It is the truth that makes us free or condemns us – not G-d or anyone else.  I believe the judgement is no more than the revelation of truth – truth that we can no longer hide from anyone; especially ourselves.  The ordinances, commandments, laws and doctrines are all gifts (not our accomplishments) that are given to those that seek divine guidance; all which are intended to assist us in knowing and doing the acts and things of divine compassion.  The divine gifts are useless and of no worth to those that reject the divine characteristics of love, sacrifice and compassion for others.  Because the gifts of G-d are gateways to eternal life – some foolishly come to believe that they are accomplishments and ends unto themselves.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe we judge ourselves.   It is the truth that makes us free or condemns us – not G-d or anyone else.  I believe the judgement is no more than the revelation of truth – truth that we can no longer hide from anyone; especially ourselves.  The ordinances, commandments, laws and doctrines are all gifts (not our accomplishments) that are given to those that seek divine guidance; all which are intended to assist us in knowing and doing the acts and things of divine compassion.  The divine gifts are useless and of no worth to those that reject the divine characteristics of love, sacrifice and compassion for others.  Because the gifts of G-d are gateways to eternal life – some foolishly come to believe that they are accomplishments and ends unto themselves.

 

The Traveler

To support this idea.  The scripture do say that the judgments we judge by, is the judgement we will be judged with.  And when I hear this I am reminded of the story of Laban.

Laban had the brass plates, Laman (and Nephi and the others) asked for the brass plates.  Laban accused Laman of being a Thief and Robber and tried to have him killed.

Later on Laban became a Thief and a Robber when Nephi and his brothers tried to buy the brass plates with their worldly wealth.

Laban the thief and robber is later executed by Nephi at the prompting of the Lord.  Divine Judgment having been rendered against Laban.

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

To support this idea.  The scripture do say that the judgments we judge by, is the judgement we will be judged with.  And when I hear this I am reminded of the story of Laban.

Laban had the brass plates, Laman (and Nephi and the others) asked for the brass plates.  Laban accused Laman of being a Thief and Robber and tried to have him killed.

Later on Laban became a Thief and a Robber when Nephi and his brothers tried to buy the brass plates with their worldly wealth.

Laban the thief and robber is later executed by Nephi at the prompting of the Lord.  Divine Judgment having been rendered against Laban.

Of a side note. I have often felt that it was Gods plan all along for Nephi and his brothers to be robbed by Laban so that God is justified in the slaying of Laban in his wickedness at the hand of his servent Nephi.

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Of a side note. I have often felt that it was Gods plan all along for Nephi and his brothers to be robbed by Laban so that God is justified in the slaying of Laban in his wickedness at the hand of his servent Nephi.

Seems likely.  The whole setup could have been what was necessary to help Nephi understand and accept that killing Laban was indeed God's will.  After all you don't want to make a mistake on such a life and death action.

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Seems likely.  The whole setup could have been what was necessary to help Nephi understand and accept that killing Laban was indeed God's will.  After all you don't want to make a mistake on such a life and death action.

 

Yes, it makes sense. Laban was perhaps also the only one really aware of the situation and may have hunted down and killed Lehi and company to further secure his theft.

[wenglund]

On 4/25/2017 at 9:47 AM, Traveler said:

@Carborendum

Sometimes I believe we get “out of balance” because of I or ME problems.  The very question “Will I make the Celestial Kingdom?” is actually the wrong question. 

To me, this is profound, not just for your stated reason (potential for pride), but it also touches on the "lose yourself and find yourself" principle as well as it recognizes that "We Cannot Be Saved Without Our Dead." 

I would humbly add that the goal of reaching the Celestial Kingdom isn't necessarily bad, but I prefer the goal which Christ set for us--i.e. become like him. Through striving for the later, our focus is on serving others rather than achieving something for ourselves. Gone is the stress about being good enough or worthy enough, replaced by with the peace of having done good in the world today. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

4 hours ago, wenglund said:

To me, this is profound, not just for your stated reason (potential for pride), but it also touches on the "lose yourself and find yourself" principle as well as it recognizes that "We Cannot Be Saved Without Our Dead." 

I would humbly add that the goal of reaching the Celestial Kingdom isn't necessarily bad, but I prefer the goal which Christ set for us--i.e. become like him. Through striving for the later, our focus is on serving others rather than achieving something for ourselves. Gone is the stress about being good enough or worthy enough, replaced by with the peace of having done good in the world today. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Great advice. Kind of like, "forget about yourself, you'll be fine. Go help others."