Heavenly Mother

[Gaia]

<div class='quotemain'>

I wanted to continue the discussion on Heavenly Mother, thus this thread.

The existence of Heavenly Mother is an accepted doctrine of the LDS Church -- (see for example:

a) http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/g...nly_mother.html

B) http://www.greaterthings.com/MormonGoddess/

Well - no. None of your sources was officially doctrinal in nature. In fact the one that is quasi-doctrinal, the Encylopedia of Mormonism summed it up correctly: "Latter-day Saints infer from authoritative sources of scripture and modern prophecy that there is a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father."

... that is WE INFER. Official doctrinal sources do not make it explicit. We only interpret or infer what the doctrine implies.

Do you have any official sources I could turn to for doctrinal reference?

GAIA:

I'm sorry but with all due respect, that is simply not true.

I quoted both scripture (D&C 76 and 132) and a very long list of current General Authorities - Prophets/ presidents and Apostles, including the "Proclamation on the Family" which has the official signature of the First Presidency --

-- And that's about as "official" and "authoritiative" as one can get.

I can understand if you don't want to accept the doctrine, but for whatever reason, it's certainly not because i haven't presented "official", "authoritative" backing for it.

Blessings --

~Gaia

Gaia,

Just curious, are you LDS?

I thought I remembered by your name before it said LDS.

You know A LOT about us, I am impressed.

GAIA:

Thank you -- I've been blessed to have some of the best experts on LDS history and doctrine, as my teachers and mentors.

I was baptized on Easter Sunday at BYU many years ago, and i retain my membership in the Church, although i have studied a number of other spiritual systems as well --Including for example, the Kabbalah, the Jewish mystical system, which Joseph Smith is supposed to have studied (See for example, "Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection" -- www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm )

Blessings --

~Gaia

.

[Gaia]

I found an article that i thought some here might be interested in.

Please note, it is NOT LDS doctrine, but i think it does have some interesting things to tell us about scripture, scriptural interpretation, and Heavenly Mother, --

From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mormon-mystic/message/22791

From: "Kerry Shirts" <shirtail@...>

Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 10:03 am

Subject: Praying to Heavenly Mother

Article by Kerry Shirts: On How Praying to Heavenly MOther IS Scriptural, --

according to the original Scriptures --

I found it. In fact, I think I posted this here a few months back, but here is

the majority of the post again. Notice it is indeed quite scriptural to pray to

Heavenly Mother. Just because we in this church refuse to learn Hebrew, and

hence see just WHO is being prayed to, does not make it right or correct or

accurate to say we are not to pray to Heavenly Mother. Not that I am advocating

such, but I dang sure can show it is very scriptural.

Kerry

In conjunction with "Eloah," is the name "El-Shadday" which is also mostly used

by Job, interestingly enough. In fact of the 48 times Shadday is mentioned in

the Bible, 31 of them are in Job! So a look into this is in high order I

believe. Fascinating insights can be gleaned from the Hebrew of Job.

The feminine imagery is powerfully depicted in Job 38:8."Or who shut up the sea

with doors, when it brake forth, [leapt tumultuously or burst forth

energetically] as if it had issued out of the womb?" Yahweh also asks

rhetorically at Job 38:29 - "Out of whose womb came the ice?" These are feminine

characteristics. And what's more, they are the feminine characteristics of the

Goddess Eloah since Job describes her further in other places. Job 11:5 laments

"Oh that God would speak." God here being the Goddess Eloah. The next verse is a

desire for God(dess) (Eloah) to show the secrets of Wisdom. ("weyagged-leka ta'

alumot Hokmah" - the Hebrew "ta' alumot" being the feminine noun in the plural

construct, while "Hokmah," is of course, the singular feminine noun for Wisdom,

another name for the Mother Goddess, especially in Proverbs, the Wisdom of

Solomon, and Sirach and later Rabbinic, Kabbalistic traditions). Notice the

remainder of this verse 6, how it shows a Mother's mercy!, ".that they [the

secrets of the Wisdom] are double to that which is! Know therefore that God

exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth." There is no eye for an eye

and tooth for a tooth justice here being described, but a loving tender mercy

with less punishment and ignorance than is deserved, a very "motherly" trait.

Verse 7 continues with more information of the God(dess) - Job 11:7: "Canst thou

by searching find out God? [Hebrew "Eloah"] canst thou find out the Almighty

[Hebrew Shadday] unto perfection?"

Another way to translate this is "can you reach the limit or find the

extremities to the ultimate Almighty?" The Hebrew "Takliyth" is the feminine

singular construct. The HALOT Lexicon indicates that the Neo-Punic word "ts't

watkl't" means the outermost or the furthest parts.

This description of Eloah/Shadday (they are used synonymously in many places in

Job and the Hebrew scriptures) indicates the majesty and power of the Goddess.

She is, after all, the "Almighty"! The Hebrew is El-Shadday," which in Hebrew

can translate as "the many breasted God," or "the God with breasts," since

Hebrew "Shad" means a woman's breasts.

And furthermore, considering El-Shadday, it is utterly incredibly fascinating to

realize that it was as this Goddess, El-Shadday, that God was known to the

Patriarchs before she was known as Yahweh! Exodus 6:3 notes this plainly. In the

previous verse [2], God said He was Yhwh, and in verse 3, God was known as

El-Shadday, the Hebrew word used for "appeared" in the English translation is

actually "'erah' from the root "ra'ah" which can mean to "understand," to

"realize," to "learn how someone is," etc. (HALOT Lexicon). It means a lot more

than simply seeing God, but also in understand what and how God is, in this

case, that God is the Mother, Shadday, the breasted one. Hence the God of

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the Mother, Shadday! Now that is simply stunning.

In conjunction with this, we read at Psalm 114:7, that the earth trembles at the

presence of the God of Jacob. Here she is again as Eloah.

That Shadday meaning the Breasted One, is a correct translation and

interpretation, is also seen in the parallelism in Jacob's blessing in Genesis

49:25-26, where she is mentioned, as well as the blessings being of the womb,

the breasts, as well as the family, father and mother, and child. (see the

analysis of this in David Noel Freedman, Frank Moore Cross, Jr., "Studies in

Ancient Yahwistic Poetry," William B. Eerdmann's Publishing, Biblical Resource

Series, reprint, 1997: 53-63.) The blessing of Jacob also mentions the blessings

of the deep.

The Deep is the Hebrew, "Tehom" - of which perhaps the Goddess Tiamat is

derived. The "tehom" is the "deep", symbolizing, the womb, the Mother of

creation, of course. At Ebla the word is "ti'a-'a-ma-tum," which corresponds

also with the Akkadian "tiamtu(m)," "tamtu(m)," the deep, sea (HALOT Lexicon).

An older treatment of Gen 1:2 found a similarity between "tehom" in Genesis and

the Enuma Elish story in which Tiamat was vanquished by Marduk and from her body

earth and heaven were made. Genesis also reflects a fight in which the spirit of

God rushed on the chaos monster and thus made the ordered universe. "Tiamat" and

"tehom" come from the same root. The root referred to deep waters and Hebrew

used this root as well as a noun for water in the deep ocean and deep in the

ground. But in the animistic thought of Akkadian it became divinized into the

goddess of the ocean, Tiamat. In Ugaritic the "h" is preserved ( thm) as in

Hebrew and the ocean is sometimes divinized as in Akkadian. E. Theodore Mullen,

Jr., in his Doctoral Dissertation, "The Divine Council in Canaanite and Early

Hebrew Literature," Scholars press, 1980: 13, noted that creation itself, is not

necessarily a battle against the sea, (the "Deep," in the Bible) so much as it

is containment. It is the restricting of the bounds of the sea that is what

caused Creation. A god or Goddess can contain the boundless deep, but humans

cannot. This is why El-Shadday is noted as being the Almighty, she is the

boundless ocean. The ocean, the deep (read womb), is the ocean of life, not

literal physical waters incidentally. It is interesting to note in Ulf

Oldenburg's dissertation (The Conflict Between El and Baal in Canaanite

Religion," (1969): 134), that the battle of Yamm (the Sea) and the other Gods,

is held back by two goddesses, and that Yamm is considered male.

Anyway, back to Job. Job 22:26 For then shalt thou have thy delight in the

Almighty, [El-Shadday] and shalt lift up thy face unto God [Eloah].

It is interesting that these are the names of the Goddess being talked of. In

another verse, speaking of the hypocrit, Job is asked rhetorically, "Will he

delight himself in the Almighty [El-Shadday]? will he always call upon God

[Eloah]?" (Job 27:10). Here again, we have the Goddess. Amazing also is when we

realize that Job understands that the Goddess will be his judge! Job 31:6 "Let

me be weighed in an even balance, that God [Eloah] may know mine integrity."

Three times Eloah occurs in parallel to "rock" as a descriptive term for God

(Deut 32:15; Psa 18:31 [Hebrew 32]; Isa 44:8). Once it is found in a context in

which God is described as a shield to those who take refuge in him (Prov 30:5).

Three times it is used in a context of terror for sinners (Psa 50:22; Psa 114:7;

Psa 139:19).

This would suggest that the term conveyed to God's people comfort and assurance

while conveying fear to their enemies. This is how a Mother would be with her

children, a source of comfort. The concepts of strength and might conveyed by

Eloah are further seen in the three successive verses of Daniel's vision about

the great foreign god (Dan 11:37-39). Here the foreign god's god (Eloah) seems

to be "strength" itself. In Habakkuk 1:11 the term is used similarly.

This term for God, Eloah, was usually clearly used for Israel's God, the true

God. This is evident from the fact that the Levites in the postexilic period

used the term in quoting the descriptive revelation of God given in Exo 34:6-7,

where the original revelation to Moses had used El and Yahweh (Nehemiah 9:17).

In fact here at Nehemiah we find many of the Goddess attributes for which the

feminine is known - ".but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful,

slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not." This recalls

what I noted about Gesenius' description based on the Hebrew vorlage of the

feminine, ". while the feminine aspect involves motherly, productive,

sustaining, nourishing, gentle, etc." (Gesenius, "Grammar").

Perhaps the most staggering place that Eloah is used in the Hebrew Bible, is in

Isaiah. In his great argument against the idolatry of the nations, Here is what

the Goddess says: Isaiah 44:8 - "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told

thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a

God [Eloah] beside me? yea, there is no God [Eloah]; I know not any." Eloah is

also found on the Great Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah manuscript as

well, as I have personally been able to look it up and see the spelling.

This is the very famous verse used by literally all Christian to declare the

idea of monotheism in ancient Israel. It is, indeed, rather shocking to find our

beloved Mother Goddess in this verse!

The Mother is also associated and indeed, identified with the "Holy Spirit," the

Ruach ha Qadosh. Interestingly, in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is

associated with the Second Comforter, especially in John chapters 14-16. The

idea and role of comforting is found quite strongly as mothering in Isaiah

66:13. "As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall

be comforted in Jerusalem." This comforting, nurturing aspect is important as

indicating the feminine goddess aspects.

The Pi'el meaning of nakhum is "to comfort" or "to be comforted" (Niphal, Pual,

and Hithpael). This Hebrew word was well known to every pious Jew living in

exile as he recalled the opening words of Isaiah's "Book of Consolation,

"nahammu, nahammu ammi" - "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people" (Isa 40:1). The

same word occurs in Psa 23:4, where David says of his heavenly Shepherd, "Thy

rod and thy staff, they comfort me." A mother might comfort her child (Isa 66:13

above) but it is God who comforts his people (Psalm 71:21 [here using Elohim];

Psalm 86:17; Psalm 119:82; Isa 12:1; Isa 49:13; Isa 52:9).

More to the point, at Isaiah 11:2, the Spirit of Wisdom is called the Spirit of

Yahweh. The interesting thing here is in this verse, the words "to rest upon,"

"Wisdom," "Counsel," "might," "knowledge," and finally, "fear" are all feminine.

It is understood that Wisdom personified is the female Deity involved in the

creation of the universe with God, as God.

The Shekhinah is also the female aspect of Deity, strongly elaborated on in the

Kabbalah. Yet the idea is also found in the Old Testament and quite strongly.

The Shekhinah means "dwelling" or "presence" of God. Interestingly the

"mishkhan" a form of the word "shakan" to dwell, means the Tabernacle. Shikhinah

is a feminine Hebrew noun and Isaiah 51 uses this feminine noun along with the

feminine pronouns, particularly verses 9 and 10. Isaiah 57:15 says the Shekhinah

"inhabits," (Hebrew, Shokeyn) eternity, the high and lofty one.

Gerschom Scholem, "The Mystical Shape of the Godhead," Schocken Books, 1991:

143f, noted that Philo described the Father Creator of All, and the Mother, the

Mother of all, including the Son. This Father is described as the "Husband of

Wisdom." She is the radiant emanation of the Glory of God, the Holy One. And the

Holy One is one of the main epithets which Isaiah uses to describe the Goddess

and Mother. The Hebrew "Qadosh" is used to describe the Holy Spirit, the Spirit

of God, which was sent to Israel during the Exodus, to lead them. (See Jacobus

A. Naude, "Holiness in the Dead Sea Scrolls," in James C. Vanderkam, Peter W.

Flint, eds., "The Dead Sea Scrolls After 50 Years," E.J. Brill, 1999: 171-199

for excellent analytical treatment of Qadosh) It was this same Spirit who was

the Mother in the Hebrew Scriptures, which we have been exploring. The Marriage

of the Father and Mother, and the birth of their Son, the Logos, is discussed by

Margaret Barker in good detail in her book "The Great High Priest," pp. 237f. In

fact, when God said let us make mankind in OUR image, (used at the beginning of

this research) it was Wisdom, the Mother, to whom he was talking to! (Barker, p.

237).

In the Gospel of the Hebrews, as Jerome, the early Church father quoted it,

Jesus described the Holy Spirit as "My Mother." (See Barker, p. 243). So we

actually see then that the Spirit, the Ruach, the Mother, Sheikhinah, Wisdom,

Holy One of Israel, Eloah, Elah, appears in the scripture from the very

beginning right through to today. There is much more to this than what I have

slapped together so speedily, but you get the idea.

~End article.

[Brother Dorsey]

Here's my two cents for what it's worth......

I believe the idea that we have a Heavenly Mother is doctrine....other than that nothing else regarding her is........

As far as Latter-Day revelation about praying to her, worshipping her, teaching our opinions about her etc.....there is none. When HF wants to reveal more about her then we will know.

However, it is fun to speculate about her, to wonder about her and what she may be like...but that speculation has no place in church teachings or talks as it is not doctrine.

Again I say:

The idea that we have a Heavenly Mother is doctrine....nothing else written or otherwise about her is.

[tiancum]

<div class='quotemain'>

i know they ALL hear me.

By this, are you implying more than two?

I think Christ listens too. After all He and the father are ONE.

SO YUP I guess i am.

[a-train]

Now, as LDS believe, all religion, all science, all knowledge and wisdom comes from God. Every belief ever had among man is based on what he has received from God, but wisdom ceases as soon as man endeavors to go beyond what he has received from the LORD. It is this dynamic from which springs all the various tenets throughout the world. LDS acknowledge that every religious persuasion contains at least some amount of the original revealed religion.

The Caananites, the Israelites, and all the ancients for that matter, possessed certain understanding handed down to them from the beginning through the prophets. However, these doctrines were then embelished and altered through logic, philosophy, and so forth. We, arriving here in this time, have available to us an unprecedented data base of these various doctrines which have been believed or still are, but we must have a good means of discerning between the original truth and the further contemplations of men beyond the LORD's revelations.

The work of the Restoration was to isolate and clarify those doctrines necessary for a fulness of the Gospel to be preached a final time in preparation for the coming of the LORD. The knowledge of the importance of gender and the steps necessary for men and women to fulfill their earthly purposes in advancement toward their eternal residence in the Presence of God is included in the fulness of the Gospel.

However, details of our Heavenly Mother's role in the Creation of not only us, but of the heaven and earth as well, have not been so clarified by the Restoration. While a look at the acknowledgement of various groups both ancient and modern of the existance of our Heavenly Mother and the details of their understanding of Her and Her role in the work of Diety can be interesting, we must be careful not to extend our own belief to include any teaching not vindicated by the LORD's acknowledgement of it's truth by revelation.

There are those who believe there is scriptural affirmation that women are NOT to be permitted to speak in Church services, this is based on the writings of Paul. We have through the revelation of the Restoration a knowledge that women ARE permitted to speak in Church services. We must allow the LORD to give us the insight necessary to understand and apply the scriptures to our lives properly.

Although I respect the studious efforts of those seeking vindication of the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother in the Bible and any such teaching of her found therein, let us not be so zealous that we would allow ourselves to take upon us interpretations and clarifications given by men and not revelation. The last thing we want is the doctrines of men mingled with scripture.

-a-train

[Snow]

WHY would Church leaders withhold information on Heavenly Mother, and FORBID us to so much as MENTION Her, let alone actually discuss, let alone worship or pray to Her, and attribute that to Heavenly FAther?

(See, for example, what happened to Lynne Whitesides when she merely gave an address MENTIONING Heavenly Mother -- http://www.lds-mormon.com/controve.shtml

I can't for the life of me understand why some of you posters are so desperate to assert victimization at every turn.

What you posted about Lynn Whitesides:

"Whitesides, was in trouble. She had just been summoned to a church court. It was several weeks before we were able to make contact with our family and friends again and I learned that Lynne had been disfellowshiped."

...is the opinion of Janice Allred, who was excommunicated for apostacy. The apostate Allred was not privy to the Whiteside Church court, was not present and did not review the record of the proceedings. The only information she could have is what she imagined or what Whitesides, herself a disgruntled apostate told her. It is not like Allred or Whitesides aren't following agendas in their presentation of the particulars.

I have met Whitesides and talked to her specifically about her beliefs and her apostacy. I don't think she is deliberately dishonest or irrational but she certainly presents things from HER point of view. Undoubtedly, the others involved (Bishop etc) have their point of view. Do I take the word of a disguntled apostate over a Bishop like seem wont to do? Of course not. That would be farsical.

Let me ask you... You probably had to renew your temple recommend recently - maybe to deal with the bar code do-hickey. Did you share your support for such ideas as you presented here and in the priesthood thread - along with your beliefs about Church discipline of apostates? How did that affect your recommend?

[Snow]

GAIA:

I'm sorry but with all due respect, that is simply not true.

I quoted both scripture (D&C 76 and 132) and a very long list of current General Authorities - Prophets/ presidents and Apostles, including the "Proclamation on the Family" which has the official signature of the First Presidency --

-- And that's about as "official" and "authoritiative" as one can get.

I can understand if you don't want to accept the doctrine, but for whatever reason, it's certainly not because i haven't presented "official", "authoritative" backing for it.

Blessings --

~Gaia

It is, in point of fact, completely true. As you know from my post, I was responding to your OP in which you quoted no official doctrinal sources.

I have now read your other posts - though I kinda glossed over the endless cut and pastes and my point remains vaild. Beyond the belief that a Heavenly Mother exists, there is nothing or next to nothing in any official doctrinal sources. What we believe from official sources is by way of inference and interpretation.

[Gaia]

Thank you Snow, for your ideas and discussion --

Blessings -

~Gaia

[Snow]

Thank you Snow, for your ideas and discussion --

Blessings -

~Gaia

You needn't be gently dismissive with me Gaia. You can simply not respond or say that you cannot rebut the points... which apparently you cannot... and that's okay.

[Gaia]

You needn't be gently dismissive with me Gaia. You can simply not respond or say that you cannot rebut the points... which apparently you cannot... and that's okay.

GAIA:

Wow, i just can't get used to your perpetually negative "take" on everything --

I was not trying to be "dismissive"; i did not want anyone to think i was simply ignoring you, and neither was i saying that i couldn't "rebut" your points.

I was trying to let you know -- as respectfully and cordially as possible -- that i think this discussion has gone as far as it can go (at least with you), and remain positive and respectful. As i've said several times, i'm not trying to "convince" you of anything, and i don't care to argue. Your position is clear and i think i've made mine clear.

~GAia

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

You needn't be gently dismissive with me Gaia. You can simply not respond or say that you cannot rebut the points... which apparently you cannot... and that's okay.

GAIA:

Wow, i just can't get used to your perpetually negative "take" on everything --

I was not trying to be "dismissive"; i did not want anyone to think i was simply ignoring you, and neither was i saying that i couldn't "rebut" your points.

I was trying to let you know -- as respectfully and cordially as possible -- that i think this discussion has gone as far as it can go (at least with you), and remain positive and respectful. As i've said several times, i'm not trying to "convince" you of anything, and i don't care to argue. Your position is clear and i think i've made mine clear.

~GAia

This is the deal - you made what I think think is an obviously simplistic and unknowable (to you - the person making the allegation) assertion about Lynn Whitesides. I rebut it with something you can't factually rebut while your assertion lies unsupported. Rather than restate, retract or rebut, you dismiss (my term). When I am factually corrrected, usually anyway, I give retract or correct because I do not want my incorrect statements hanging out there. It wouldn't be intellectually honest of me.

[Gwen]

i've been in the chruch my whole life and been taught of a heavenly mother. there are some here (i'll admit i've not read every single post here) that are saying the chruch implies a heavenly mother but that it's not doctrine. did i misunderstand something? i thought that is what was being said anyway. so does anyone have an official chruch source that says difiniatively yes or no about the doctrine/belief of a heavenly mother? maybe it's already been posted and i missed it, sorry if that is the case. i did find this from lds.org though.

Lesson 3: I Am a Child of God,” Primary 2: Choose the Right A, 11

"We also lived with our heavenly mother and all the rest of Heavenly Father’s children."

Vaughn J. Featherstone, “A Champion of Youth,” Ensign, Nov 1987, 27

"Women are endowed with special traits and attributes that come trailing down through eternity from a divine mother. Young women have special God-given feelings about charity, love, and obedience. Coarseness and vulgarity are contrary to their natures. They have a modifying, softening influence on young men. Young women were not foreordained to do what priesthood holders do. Theirs is a sacred, God-given role, and the traits they received from heavenly mother are equally as important as those given to the young men."

Lesson 9: Chastity and Modesty,” The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A, 60

President Spencer W. Kimball, speaking to Latter-day Saint girls in Mexico City, said: “You are daughters of God. … You are made in the image of our heavenly mother. … Your body is sacred to you and precious” (in Conference Report, Mexico City and Central America Area Conference 1973, 108).

two of those are lesson manuals, what we are instructed to teach in our classes. do we not teach doctrin in our classes? there were some others, but i think three is sufficent for now.

[siouxz72]

i've been in the chruch my whole life and been taught of a heavenly mother. there are some here (i'll admit i've not read every single post here) that are saying the chruch implies a heavenly mother but that it's not doctrine. did i misunderstand something? i thought that is what was being said anyway. so does anyone have an official chruch source that says difiniatively yes or no about the doctrine/belief of a heavenly mother? maybe it's already been posted and i missed it, sorry if that is the case. i did find this from lds.org though.

Lesson 3: I Am a Child of God,” Primary 2: Choose the Right A, 11

"We also lived with our heavenly mother and all the rest of Heavenly Father’s children."

Vaughn J. Featherstone, “A Champion of Youth,” Ensign, Nov 1987, 27

"Women are endowed with special traits and attributes that come trailing down through eternity from a divine mother. Young women have special God-given feelings about charity, love, and obedience. Coarseness and vulgarity are contrary to their natures. They have a modifying, softening influence on young men. Young women were not foreordained to do what priesthood holders do. Theirs is a sacred, God-given role, and the traits they received from heavenly mother are equally as important as those given to the young men."

Lesson 9: Chastity and Modesty,” The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A, 60

President Spencer W. Kimball, speaking to Latter-day Saint girls in Mexico City, said: “You are daughters of God. … You are made in the image of our heavenly mother. … Your body is sacred to you and precious” (in Conference Report, Mexico City and Central America Area Conference 1973, 108).

two of those are lesson manuals, what we are instructed to teach in our classes. do we not teach doctrin in our classes? there were some others, but i think three is sufficent for now.

Nice post, ALmom! I've been in the church my whole life as well and have always heard about and learned of a Heavenly Mother. And you're question is great... We do teach official Church Doctrine out of the manual in our classes. :)

[Doctor Steuss]

Some may find this blog post by Ron Baron of interest.

[siouxz72]

Some may find this blog post by Ron Baron of interest.

That really was interesting Doctor Steuss. Thanks for posting it.

[Moksha]

Gaia, isn't there a need for a Divine Feminine, just to add symmetry to the Universe? Although what if there were species in the Universe that has more than two naturally occurring sexes?

[Doctor Steuss]

Gaia, isn't there a need for a Divine Feminine, just to add symmetry to the Universe? Although what if there were species in the Universe that has more than two naturally occurring sexes?

This reminds me of a piece of Plato's dialogue Symposium:

Now the sexes were three, and such as I have described them; because the sun, moon, and earth are three;-and the man was originally the child of the sun, the woman of the earth, and the man-woman of the moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round: like their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they made an attack upon the gods; of them is told the tale of Otys and Ephialtes who, as Homer says, dared to scale heaven, and would have laid hands upon the gods. Doubt reigned in the celestial councils. Should they kill them and annihilate the race with thunderbolts, as they had done the giants, then there would be an end of the sacrifices and worship which men offered to them; but, on the other hand, the gods could not suffer their insolence to be unrestrained.

[MadHatter]

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

Gaia, isn't there a need for a Divine Feminine, just to add symmetry to the Universe? Although what if there were species in the Universe that has more than two naturally occurring sexes?

This reminds me of a piece of Plato's dialogue Symposium:

Now the sexes were three, and such as I have described them; because the sun, moon, and earth are three;-and the man was originally the child of the sun, the woman of the earth, and the man-woman of the moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round: like their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they made an attack upon the gods; of them is told the tale of Otys and Ephialtes who, as Homer says, dared to scale heaven, and would have laid hands upon the gods. Doubt reigned in the celestial councils. Should they kill them and annihilate the race with thunderbolts, as they had done the giants, then there would be an end of the sacrifices and worship which men offered to them; but, on the other hand, the gods could not suffer their insolence to be unrestrained. Plato Smato. You've been watching Hedwig.

Elphaba

[Doctor Steuss]

Plato Smato. You've been watching Hedwig.

Elphaba

<div align="center">Last time I saw you

We had just split in two

You were looking at me

I was looking at you

You had a way so familiar

But I could not recognize

'Cause you had blood on your face

I had blood in my eyes

But I could swear by your expression

That the pain down in your soul

Was the same as the one down in mine

That's the pain

That cuts a straight line down through the heart

We call it love

</div>

Believe it or not, I do occasionally take breaks from watching off-Broadway musical theater productions to read Plato (I know, it’s hard for me to believe too…).

[tiancum]

SOURCE OF ADAM-GOD THEORY. President Brigham Young is quoted-in all probability the sermon was erroneously transcribed!-as having said: "Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.

Bruce R McKonkie.

He further explains Brigham's other assertions in context.

It makes sense to me.

could you let that be a possibility for you also gaia? I could be mistaken, but it seems like a stumbling block for you...as well as other recent topics. Could that be correct?

may I ask you a couple questions Gaia?

-where are you getting your materials? Do ya have actual books, official records, or are they coming from an unofficial site somewhere.

-do you visit anti-mormon sites?

Now many are clever to say they got it directly from the source, but if they are still historically "secondary sources" No matter how, verbatim they are copied, or cut and pasted.

[Gaia]

Hi All --

I just wanted to let ya'll know that i address Tiancum's questions here --

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...10005&st=45 POst # 49.

[Dove]

Hello, Gaia,

Thankyou for your response to my post. I'm sorry for not responding sooner. All that you have posted makes for great reading. I never knew there were so many quotes from the authorities of the church concerning Heavenly Mother. It is comforting to read and to know.

I've been reading through the other posts here, and I'm sorry that you have met with so much antagonism concerning this. I hope this website lives up to its assertion of being a safe place to express one's views in regards to the LDS church.

I think the truth of a being such as Mother in Heaven has been well established, and quibbling about wether or not it is church doctrine is besides the point.

I, for one, am so grateful for all the threads you have posted. They are worth reading to me. I admire your courage for staying in the heat of the battle in asserting your belief in Her and backing it up with the numerous quotes you have. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge concerning the church and its beliefs. A knowledge I would like to gain more of.

As for all the antagonistic quotes against you, I wish sometimes church members of the male sex could walk a mile in our shoes~ perhaps then they would have a little more compassion and emphathy for what we are going through in our need for a sense of our glorious Mother.

Yes, I would like to read your new ?post?. Just let me know the title and where it is. I will find it.

~Dove

[Gaia]

Hello Dear Sister Dove --

Thank you so very much for your kind words, you'll never know what they mean to me.

Blessings to you --

~Gaia

[antispatula]

are you sure "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" is an "LDS book?"