The Great Plan of Salvation vs Principles & Doctrine

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

If I was following the pattern of mortality - I would not believe in forgiveness.  I see no patter of mortal life (the fact that all die) that would suggest forgiveness.  It is a spiritual understanding that I believe that those that are not forgiven - it is not because G-d does not forgive but because they refuse to forgive themselves.  Therefore they remain unforgiven - not because of G-d and choices G-d makes -- but because of themself and choices they make.

I do not believe G-d would rejoyce in casting someone into everlasting darkness.  I believe he weeps over those that choose everlasting darkness.  I reject the idea that G-d forces anyone to heaven or hell.  I believe he gives us agency to choose for ourselves.  You are correct - I do see a pattern of agency.  That is why I believe G-d allows us to choose - he does not condemn or force or punish - only good can come from G-d. 

Still more of the philosophies of men.  Where is the word of the Lord on any of this?

Do you have any scriptures to back any of that up?  Do you have any scriptures that say that those consigned to OD will eventually be forgiven?  I've got some that say they will not.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Armin said:

I think that Traveler stated something that I would call an intellectual continuation of a profound spiritual insight. 

How do you come to this conclusion?

2 hours ago, Armin said:

In my personal belief it's not the scriptures alone and their word-for-word interpretation that teach us, but more the insights we extract from them. 

Of course. No one would dispute that. But there's a difference between gaining an insight and coming to a conclusion that directly contradicts other things either in the scriptures or as taught by the prophets and apostles.

2 hours ago, Armin said:

All scriptures are from man, implying the faults of understanding of those to them revelations once were given,

This is a cop out view that can be used to cast off any scriptures we personally disagree with. We know, of course, that the Bible is only true so far as it was translated correctly. Beyond that, the scriptures are the word of God as He wills them. The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth. The D&C are revelations directly from God, as is the Pearl of Great Price. And more importantly, we have living prophets and apostle to guide us in the truth of all things. We are not meant to flounder on our own either by throwing out whatever scriptures we personally don't agree with or by making up our own interpretations of things that fly in the face of gospel truths. We are not meant to succeed or fail based on the prowess of our intelligence.

This entire, "I'm smarter than the prophets and apostles and by my grand intelligence I have reasoned out the REAL truth!" ideology as proposed by some on this forum holds about as much water as the myriad of sects ideas who did the same thing in the apostasy. And it is pure foolishness in the guise of wisdom and intelligence. It is meaningless drivel at best and insidious poison at worst.

2 hours ago, Armin said:

and this is what even Joseph Smith once told us.

Quote please.

Edited June 17, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Armin said:

Traveler says that " ...  - only good can come from G-d."   And this is what I believe might be the quintessence of all, may one say whatever he likes.

Allow me to rephrase:

"Water is wet, may one say whatever he likes."

[Rob Osborn]

40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How do you come to this conclusion?

Of course. No one would dispute that. But there's a difference between gaining an insight and coming to a conclusion that directly contradicts other things either in the scriptures or as taught by the prophets and apostles.

This is a cop out view that can be used to cast off any scriptures we personally disagree with. We know, of course, that the Bible is only true so far as it was translated correctly. Beyond that, the scriptures are the word of God as He wills them. The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth. The D&C are revelations directly from God, as is the Pearl of Great Price. And more importantly, we have living prophets and apostle to guide us in the truth of all things. We are not meant to flounder on our own either by throwing out whatever scriptures we personally don't agree with or by making up our own interpretations of things that fly in the face of gospel truths. We are not meant to succeed or fail based on the prowess of our intelligence.

This entire, "I'm smarter than the prophets and apostles and by my grand intelligence I have reasoned out the REAL truth!" ideology as proposed by some on this forum holds about as much water as the myriad of sects ideas who did the same thing in the apostasy. And it is pure foolishness in the guise of wisdom and intelligence. It is meaningless drivel at best and insidious poison at worst.

Quote please.

I agree that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth. I think its our duty to seek out those truths in the Book of Mormon and discern doctrine. So, when that discernment leads to situations like my own what am I supposed to do? I still follow the prophets. I just realize that sone things need some clarification. Im curious if you think my wanting clarification is the road to apostacy?

Edited June 17, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth. I think its our duty to seek out those truths in the Book of Mormon and discern doctrine. So, when that discernment leads to situations like my own what am I supposed to do? I still follow the prophets. I just realize that sone things need some clarification. Im curious if you think my wanting clarification is the road to apostacy?

When you seek clarification without turning to the living prophets and apostles, yes. More specifically, when you seek clarification without using the means the Lord has given us. All the means. Do you read general conference talks in your study? Do you read lesson manuals? What about Preach my Gospel? Do you listen carefully in church classes? Do you listen to the testimonies and teachings of long-standing faithful members? Do you read the Ensign and other church publications? And all of this with prayer and humility, listening for the whisperings of the Spirit, putting aside your pride? The scriptures are only one of the means we have to hear God's word. All of the above and more are also part of the means God has to teach us, all part of what has been designed by Him through His authorized servants who have been granted power and authority to lead His church on the earth. These programs and materials are developed by inspiration.

I'll grant that it may simply be your communication style, but it does not strike me that you are seeking clarification. You express things in no uncertain terms. I asked this before, but what's your plan when and if you bring your theories to a higher priesthood leader and they give the same answer(s) that those like myself, @Vort, @Just_A_Guy, @Carborendum, @estradling75, and others have given?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

When you seek clarification without turning to the living prophets and apostles, yes. More specifically, when you seek clarification without using the means the Lord has given us. All the means. Do you read general conference talks in your study? Do you read lesson manuals? What about Preach my Gospel? Do you listen carefully in church classes? Do you listen to the testimonies and teachings of long-standing faithful members? Do you read the Ensign and other church publications? And all of this with prayer and humility, listening for the whisperings of the Spirit, putting aside your pride? The scriptures are only one of the means we have to hear God's word. All of the above and more are also part of the means God has to teach us, all part of what has been designed by Him through His authorized servants who have been granted power and authority to lead His church on the earth. These programs and materials are developed by inspiration.

I'll grant that it may simply be your communication style, but it does not strike me that you are seeking clarification. You express things in no uncertain terms. I asked this before, but what's your plan when and if you bring your theories to a higher priesthood leader and they give the same answer(s) that those like myself, @Vort, @Just_A_Guy, @Carborendum, @estradling75, and others have given?

I am pretty sure that when the time is right, and when I have finally put everything together with the right wording, that it will be confirmation to that which I ask for.

If by some chance I do not receive confirmation I will still follow the prophets and again, later on I will seek confirmation again at a later date.

Ans, I listen very carefully and read very carefully all the church manuals, prophets, etc.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Armin said:

I mean the quintessence, "wet" is only the subjective perception of water. Its composition or molecular structure, hydrogen and oxygen, maybe gives us an idea of its universal meaning.

Apparently your unfamiliar with the English expression. You may want to look it up.  

But...

"Good" is all too often a matter of subjective perception.  It's "molecular composition" is unknown except through the pattern the Lord has set.

And it's universal meaning is similar to that of water.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, Armin said:

It's just my subjective perception of what Traveler said.

But it has been clearly shown that Traveler's philosophy that "all" will be forgiven is false as the scriptures very clearly say that some will not have forgiveness in the next life. You don't need to get all hostile about it. I'm simply asking, in light of the fact that the scriptures directly state otherwise, how it is that you come to the "subjective" conclusion that Traveler's thoughts are an intellectual continuation of a profound spiritual insight. I have no problem with that conclusion if there's some reason behind it. I do have a problem with the idea if it stems from blatantly ignoring plain scripture. Don't trust the plain word of scripture? That's even potentially reasonable in some cases I suppose, as interpretation can be involved, and in the case of the Bible, faults. But we have prophet's and apostles who have the authority to interpret these things for us by way of guidance to keep us on the right path. So here's one example of what I'm sure are many:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/03/god-will-forgive?lang=eng

Read through this carefully and then let me know if you still think Traveler's conclusions are profound and insightful or simply mistaken.

6 hours ago, Armin said:

Joseph Smith conceded the possibility of faults in the scriptures by mistakes of men. I don't need to tell you where you find it.

Well you don't "need" to do anything. If you want to make a convincing argument, however, it typically needs to be supported by something other than just say-so. I'm not accusing you of making something up. But I suspect there's either missing context to the idea, the source is suspect, he was speaking specifically of the Bible, you are mis-remembering, or some such. Obviously, as we all well know, there is the possibility of fault in scripture or it would not be a precept according to our articles of faith that we believe the Bible to be true only as far as it is translated correctly. That doesn't prove there are mistaken doctrines in the Book of Mormon, PoGP or D&C. I may be wrong. Show me I am.

What I do know is that he said that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth. I also know Parley P. Pratt said of Joseph's revelations:

"After we had joined in prayer in his translating room, he [Joseph Smith] dictated in our presence the following revelation. Each sentence was uttered slowly and very distinctly, and with a pause between each, sufficiently long for it to be recorded, by an ordinary writer, in long hand. … There was never any hesitation, reviewing, or reading back, in order to keep the run of the subject."

And I know the D&C say in section 1 :

"37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen."

These things and others seem to me to contradict the conclusion that the D&C flatly stating that sons of perdition will not receive forgiveness in the next life might be mistaken.

More importantly, see my point after the first quote. President Kimball is fairly clear about what the scriptures on this matter mean. So even if you come up with whatever quote you're referring to and explicitly prove that there could be doctrinal mistakes in the D&C, we have specific validation of the truth of this doctrine by a prophet of the Lord.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Armin said:

Which expression...?

Water is wet.

[Traveler]

 

Some thoughts:  The most correct Book ever written ends with Moroni Chapter 10.  Most of us know this chapter of scripture for its use encouraging those seeking truth to do so through the inspiration of prayer and the influence and guidance manifested by the power of the Holy Ghost.  But there is something else that is actually the final thought presented by Moroni.   What is this last and final notion?  What is the final message of the Book of Mormon and the last Nephit prophet?  Let me create even more drama and ask – Does Moroni encourage that believing in scripture is the most important – more than following living prophets?  Does Moroni encourage that there is something more important than living prophets.  How important does Moroni say that the revelation of the Holy Ghost is?

Another thought with another question.  I have asked this question many times – even on this forum.  The question is – what is of greater importance while living out our mortal lives?  To know and understand true doctrine or to live virtuous lives filled with love and compassion?  I would think the answer is obvious and yet there is much discussion to believe doctrine and little about being virtuous, loving, kind and compassionate.   Especially in obedience to the Laws we are given by covenant.  We all think we are expert in doctrine – but what are the law we have received by covenant?  Are we as knowledgeable of law as we are of doctrine?

Third thought:  Jesus took upon himself the sins of the whole world.  He has redeemed all that have fallen.  Is there any sin that is not redeemed through Jesus’ suffering?  Tell me if there is.   There are two important things or notions here.  The first notion is the notion of repentance.   But what difference would repentance make if the price of sin has already been paid by Christ?  The reason is to change our basic nature.  Our sin can be redeemed but if our nature remains fixed upon the “natural man” we will not remain “clean”.  Thus, there are two things necessary.  Even though there are two things one cannot exist without the other so in reality they are the same.  One being repentance the other being forgiveness.  In truth not forgiving and not repenting is the rejection of Christ and his suffering.  Some realize that they must repent to accept Christ – which is true but one must also forgive.  Not some but everyone.  I would suggest that we even forgive the sons and daughters of perdition.

Last point: Some believe that being redeemed, or the salvation of Christ is all that is necessary.  Some are also asking that I reference scripture.  Here is scripture – Doctrine and Covenants Section 88.  I would take from this scripture the term “sanctified”.  With this scriptural term I would add other synonymous scriptural terms such as “whole”, “holy”, “perfect” and “complete”.  Let us recall on some occasion that Christ healed many but to a few he added – “blessed are you for your faith has made you whole. “  There is something more than being saved or the salvation of Christ by which we are forgiven of our sins.  The D&C tells us that we are sanctified by the law.  Christ can save us from sin (death and hell) but it is up to us to become sanctified by the law – or to become whole or holy.  It is the law which separates those of the different degrees of glory.  It is the law that separates those of glory from those sons and daughters of perdition.   It is by the law we choose by our agency that we enter whatever kingdom we choose to reside for eternity.  There is a difference between being saved and being sanctified by the law.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Some thoughts:  The most correct Book ever written ends with Moroni Chapter 10.  Most of us know this chapter of scripture for its use encouraging those seeking truth to do so through the inspiration of prayer and the influence and guidance manifested by the power of the Holy Ghost.  But there is something else that is actually the final thought presented by Moroni.   What is this last and final notion?  What is the final message of the Book of Mormon and the last Nephit prophet?  Let me create even more drama and ask – Does Moroni encourage that believing in scripture is the most important – more than following living prophets?  Does Moroni encourage that there is something more important than living prophets.  How important does Moroni say that the revelation of the Holy Ghost is?

Another thought with another question.  I have asked this question many times – even on this forum.  The question is – what is of greater importance while living out our mortal lives?  To know and understand true doctrine or to live virtuous lives filled with love and compassion?  I would think the answer is obvious and yet there is much discussion to believe doctrine and little about being virtuous, loving, kind and compassionate.   Especially in obedience to the Laws we are given by covenant.  We all think we are expert in doctrine – but what are the law we have received by covenant?  Are we as knowledgeable of law as we are of doctrine?

Third thought:  Jesus took upon himself the sins of the whole world.  He has redeemed all that have fallen.  Is there any sin that is not redeemed through Jesus’ suffering?  Tell me if there is.   There are two important things or notions here.  The first notion is the notion of repentance.   But what difference would repentance make if the price of sin has already been paid by Christ?  The reason is to change our basic nature.  Our sin can be redeemed but if our nature remains fixed upon the “natural man” we will not remain “clean”.  Thus, there are two things necessary.  Even though there are two things one cannot exist without the other so in reality they are the same.  One being repentance the other being forgiveness.  In truth not forgiving and not repenting is the rejection of Christ and his suffering.  Some realize that they must repent to accept Christ – which is true but one must also forgive.  Not some but everyone.  I would suggest that we even forgive the sons and daughters of perdition.

Last point: Some believe that being redeemed, or the salvation of Christ is all that is necessary.  Some are also asking that I reference scripture.  Here is scripture – Doctrine and Covenants Section 88.  I would take from this scripture the term “sanctified”.  With this scriptural term I would add other synonymous scriptural terms such as “whole”, “holy”, “perfect” and “complete”.  Let us recall on some occasion that Christ healed many but to a few he added – “blessed are you for your faith has made you whole. “  There is something more than being saved or the salvation of Christ by which we are forgiven of our sins.  The D&C tells us that we are sanctified by the law.  Christ can save us from sin (death and hell) but it is up to us to become sanctified by the law – or to become whole or holy.  It is the law which separates those of the different degrees of glory.  It is the law that separates those of glory from those sons and daughters of perdition.   It is by the law we choose by our agency that we enter whatever kingdom we choose to reside for eternity.  There is a difference between being saved and being sanctified by the law.

 

The Traveler

Some very good points. I truly believe Christ can and will save all those who turn to him, repent and enter into holy covenants and then keep them. It is required of us to forgive all men. 

This part about sanctification is kind of confusing in our doctrine. I personally believe that the law of Christ is the whole law and sanctification happens in degrees to living up to, in graduated steps, to that law. So, a person can be saved and sanctified to that level of the law of Christ they are at. In time they will thus graduate into the fullness of the law of Christ.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Armin said:

Ask some fishes.

I'm going to give this one more chance.

You restated Traveler's comment about "Only good can come from God".

I restated that as being "water is wet".

You seemed to take that literally rather than responding to the meaning of the expression.

I pointed that out.

You asked which expression I was talking about.

I told you.

You went off on a tangent.

--- As far as the its vs it's, yes, I'm aware.  But when typing fast or having to deal with autocomplete, we tend to be more forgiving of each other than you seem to be.  My comment about you not being familiar with the expression was not a criticism.  It was a guess as to why you seemed to respond in a manner that took it literally rather than figuratively.  IOW, I was actually trying to be more understanding.  But it is becoming increasingly apparent, that you don't care to be.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Some thoughts:  The most correct Book ever written ends with Moroni Chapter 10.  Most of us know this chapter of scripture for its use encouraging those seeking truth to do so through the inspiration of prayer and the influence and guidance manifested by the power of the Holy Ghost.  But there is something else that is actually the final thought presented by Moroni.   What is this last and final notion?  What is the final message of the Book of Mormon and the last Nephit prophet?  Let me create even more drama and ask – Does Moroni encourage that believing in scripture is the most important – more than following living prophets?  Does Moroni encourage that there is something more important than living prophets.  How important does Moroni say that the revelation of the Holy Ghost is?

What's your point?

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Another thought with another question.  I have asked this question many times – even on this forum.  The question is – what is of greater importance while living out our mortal lives?  To know and understand true doctrine or to live virtuous lives filled with love and compassion?  I would think the answer is obvious and yet there is much discussion to believe doctrine and little about being virtuous, loving, kind and compassionate.   Especially in obedience to the Laws we are given by covenant.  We all think we are expert in doctrine – but what are the law we have received by covenant?  Are we as knowledgeable of law as we are of doctrine?

Laws are doctrine. So are the principles of virtue, love, compassion, and all other gospel principles. I'm not sure why you're making efforts to separate these.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Third thought:  Jesus took upon himself the sins of the whole world.  He has redeemed all that have fallen.  Is there any sin that is not redeemed through Jesus’ suffering?  Tell me if there is.   

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

one must also forgive.  Not some but everyone.  I would suggest that we even forgive the sons and daughters of perdition.

You suggest?

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

Edited June 19, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What's your point?

That you read Moroni chapter 10.  Perhaps you should pay particular attention to verses 7&8.

Quote

Laws are doctrine. So are the principles of virtue, love, compassion, and all other gospel principles. I'm not sure why you're making efforts to separate these.

You have this relationship of law and doctrine backwards - what you may think is doctrine may not be so.  It is not doctrine by itself - only if it pertains to a particular law of G-d.   Doctrine is worthless without law.  Such knowing of a doctrine outside of divine law is worthless.  True doctrine testifies of Christ and helps one understand and be obedient to his laws.  Another was to say this is - those that quote doctrine and do not keep the law are liars (not truthful). Truth is not determined by doctrine but by keeping and being obedient to the law.  The principles of virtue, love, compassion is only true to those that keep the laws of G-d that pertain to those principles - otherwise those that reference such principles; lie.  Thus Satan is a liar; not because he does not know doctrine or how to quote scripture (which he does) but because he is not obedient to the laws of G-d.

Quote

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

This link does not contridict what is written in the Bible Dictionary under the heading of Atonement:  -- " He made a perfect atonement for all mankind.  All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fal of Adam."  Please note the term "unconditionally".  also note it is not my idea.

Quote

You suggest?

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

Yes - I suggest.  It is not my position to command or pretend to do so.

 

The Traveler

Edited June 19, 2017 by Traveler

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Some very good points. I truly believe Christ can and will save all those who turn to him, repent and enter into holy covenants and then keep them. It is required of us to forgive all men. 

This part about sanctification is kind of confusing in our doctrine. I personally believe that the law of Christ is the whole law and sanctification happens in degrees to living up to, in graduated steps, to that law. So, a person can be saved and sanctified to that level of the law of Christ they are at. In time they will thus graduate into the fullness of the law of Christ.

Thank you for your response.  Whole is a very interesting word.  My studies indicate “Whole” is similar to Holy, Perfect, complete, sacred and sanctified.  We know that a particular law can be preparatory – such as the Law of Moses.  I would submit that the highest laws one can be given during mortal earth life are taught in the temples of G-d and are still preparatory for things after we die.  I do not believe a law can be obeyed in part.  That there is no such thing as partial obedience – only obedience on not obedient.  We progress by obedience to law – which obedience requires covenant.  We cannot progress to a higher law until we keep a preparatory law.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, Traveler said:

That you read Moroni chapter 10.  Perhaps you should pay particular attention to verses 7&8.

Read it. Many times. Here it is:

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

And...yet still I ask: What's your point?

24 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You have this relationship of law and doctrine backwards - what you may think is doctrine may not be so.  It is not doctrine by itself - only if it pertains to a particular law of G-d.   Doctrine is worthless without law.  Such knowing of a doctrine outside of divine law is worthless.  True doctrine testifies of Christ and helps one understand and be obedient to his laws.  Another was to say this is - those that quote doctrine and do not keep the law are liars. Truth is not determined by doctrine but by keeping and being obedient to the law.  The principles of virtue, love, compassion is only true to those that keep the laws of G-d that pertain to those principles - otherwise those that reference such principles; lie.  Thus Satan is a liar; not because he does not know doctrine or how to quote scripture (which he does) but because he is not obedient to the laws of G-d.

Doctrine is what is taught. It's as simple as that.

You're which came first chicken/egg stuff isn't meaningful. Of course there must be truth in true doctrine. Of course laws are truth as well. And obviously true doctrine teaches truths which includes the laws and principles of the gospel. It's really strange that you're trying to separate doctrine as if it's mutually exclusive to law and truth. But it cannot be separate because it is the belief in and expression of those very things.

24 minutes ago, Traveler said:

This link does not contridict what is written in the Bible Dictionary under the heading of Atonement:  -- " He made a perfect atonement for all mankind.  All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fal of Adam."  Please note the term "unconditionally".  also note it is not my idea.

"All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam. Hence, all shall rise from the dead with immortal bodies because of Jesus’ Atonement. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22), and all little children are innocent at birth. The Atonement is conditional,however, so far as each person’s individual sins are concerned, and touches every one to the degree that he has faith in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, and obeys the gospel. The services of the Day of Atonement foreshadowed the atoning work of Christ (Lev. 4; 23:26–32; Heb. 9). The scriptures point out that no law, ordinance, or sacrifice would be satisfactory if it were not for the Atonement of Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:1–9; 2 Ne. 9:5–24; Mosiah 13:27–32)."

Edited June 19, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

This link does not contridict what is written in the Bible Dictionary under the heading of Atonement:  -- " He made a perfect atonement for all mankind.  All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."  Please note the term "unconditionally".  also note it is not my idea.

The fall of Adam was about physical death of all mankind.  The Atonement of Christ neutralized physical death of all mankind so that ALL would be resurrected.

The spiritual death of Adam has a spiritual residual effect on all mankind.  The Atonement neutralized this effect whereby we will receive forgiveness for this effect.

The individual sins of any man are not automatically covered, but are made conditional upon our repentance for such sins.  

Do you not know 2nd Nephi 9?

EDIT: I guess FP beat me to it.  One of the references in his quote covers 2nd Ne 9.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Guest

[brotherofJared]

On 6/15/2017 at 5:31 AM, Traveler said:

We are limited and bounded in our present state - and our future state is not under our control - we are dependent and that to me means damned.  We have hope of being set free - sometime in the future but until then our condition and experience is that of a damned soul.  That we may learn the good from the evil - and have knowledge.

 

The Traveler

Limited and bound, imo means our condition can't be changed. Our present state can be changed. Out future state is completely in our control. There are places we can't go, but we can change our state. I hope I don't have to give the drastic example to explain how this works.

As far as our future, I believe it depends enitrely on what we do here. What we do is our choice. The gift we have from Adam is freedom to chose and to act and not be acted upon. Our future is completely in our control.

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 1:20 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Read it. Many times. Here it is:

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

And...yet still I ask: What's your point?

Doctrine is what is taught. It's as simple as that.

You're which came first chicken/egg stuff isn't meaningful. Of course there must be truth in true doctrine. Of course laws are truth as well. And obviously true doctrine teaches truths which includes the laws and principles of the gospel. It's really strange that you're trying to separate doctrine as if it's mutually exclusive to law and truth. But it cannot be separate because it is the belief in and expression of those very things.

"All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam. Hence, all shall rise from the dead with immortal bodies because of Jesus’ Atonement. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22), and all little children are innocent at birth. The Atonement is conditional,however, so far as each person’s individual sins are concerned, and touches every one to the degree that he has faith in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, and obeys the gospel. The services of the Day of Atonement foreshadowed the atoning work of Christ (Lev. 4; 23:26–32; Heb. 9). The scriptures point out that no law, ordinance, or sacrifice would be satisfactory if it were not for the Atonement of Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:1–9; 2 Ne. 9:5–24; Mosiah 13:27–32)."

 

Thanks again for your response. 

I though you would see something about spiritual gifts in Moroni chapter 10.  Moroni uses the word “exhort” a lot in this chapter (twice just in the two verses – 7-8).   One point I hoped you would notice is the relationship of spiritual gifts to Moroni’s use of the word exhort.  And Moroni’s warning – not about how we appreciate scripture – but spiritual gifts.  Because not appricating spiritual gifts will cause that such things will be lost and taken away – which they were during the great apostasy – even though scripture and doctrine survived and remained “standard works”.  This appreciation of spiritual gifts applies and follows the words of Christ when he said, “By their fruits you shall know them”.  There is importance to doctrine but Jesus did not say, “By this shall you know my disciples – if they know true doctrine and can quote scripture.”

One point I wished to have made concerns the redemption Jesus made for all sins – all the sins of mankind.   I wanted to make the point that what Jesus did was unconditional.   I completely agree that the long term (eternal) effect of his unconditional atonement is conditional based on our willingness to appreciate; as the statement you quoted implies.  What is clearly not said is that there is even, at least a single individual that is not forgiven and allowed to change from their sinful natural man to a saint of G-d.  Just that for some (based on more than one factor) the effect will be longer (eternal) and more effective.

I will make a very personal admission (I will cast a pearl).  As many of this forum realize and wish to exploit – I struggle with pride.  Just a little over a month ago, I stood on a hot afternoon on an unkempt plot of land on the Mount of Olives.  I was standing where a modern prophet stood addressing a few later-day saints and said this was near the place we call Gethsemane.   I read from scripture of Christ at Gethsemane and my heart was broken.  I was filled with both appreciation and great sorrow – especially for adding my pride to his pain and suffering.  If I can be so moved and appreciate the Christ – it is not at all difficult for me to understand that every knee will bow and ever tongue confess Christ.  I cannot understand anyone not being thankful – at least a little bit – even out of 100% selfishness. 

Though I was greatly moved and thankful – yet I am still not an example where I can say – See what great example of being born again that I am!  See how I have put off the natural man and have become a saint of G-d!  Since my experience on the Mount of Olives I have argued with my wife and gotten angry with drivers on the highway – still adding to the suffering of Christ at Gethsemane.  I must realize that thought I am unworthy and though I fail at my repentance I can still have hope in the Atonement of Christ?  I cannot condemn any man without condemning myself.  I cannot say Jesus will forgive me – over and over – again and again and that there is someone that remains unforgiven.  I am convinced that when the truth is manifested that no one will deny Christ and have some sorrow for his suffering.  My only hope is to plead for mercy for me and all like me that struggle with some sin.  I also exhort that it is impossible to condemn anyone as unworthy of the atonement without reaping such condemnation on yourself.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 6:39 PM, brotherofJared said:

Limited and bound, imo means our condition can't be changed. Our present state can be changed. Out future state is completely in our control. There are places we can't go, but we can change our state. I hope I don't have to give the drastic example to explain how this works.

As far as our future, I believe it depends enitrely on what we do here. What we do is our choice. The gift we have from Adam is freedom to chose and to act and not be acted upon. Our future is completely in our control.

How can you change your state of being mortal and having to face death?  How can you or anyone choose not to die?  Thinking you can choose differently is an illusion.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

40 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 This appreciation of spiritual gifts applies and follows the words of Christ when he said, “By their fruits you shall know them”.  There is importance to doctrine but Jesus did not say, “By this shall you know my disciples – if they know true doctrine and can quote scripture.”

In the LDS view I don't think anyone would argue that knowing true doctrine and being able to quote scripture was the end all of what is important in the gospel. Nor would I think anyone would debate that the place of personal revelation is less important that scripture or living prophets and apostles. All play their role. All are important. But I feel quite confident that the common understanding is that personal revelation and guidance from the Spirit sits atop these things by way of priority. Do you believe there are a host of Saints out there disregarding personal revelation?

As to the theoretical contrast between those who have good fruits and those who know true doctrine, once again, I don't know why you'd separate them. Knowing true doctrine, and accordingly preaching it, is a fruit by which they can be known. It is, obviously, not the only one. But it is, clearly, a very important one.

48 minutes ago, Traveler said:

during the great apostasy – even though scripture and doctrine survived and remained “standard works”. 

Well this is just wrong. It's only technically true if one is to define doctrine as any old belief, which it could mean, of course. But in the course of our discussion I hope it's clear that when we say "doctrine" we mean "the true doctrine of Christ". the true doctrine of Christ did not survive the great apostasy.

51 minutes ago, Traveler said:

One point I wished to have made concerns the redemption Jesus made for all sins – all the sins of mankind.   I wanted to make the point that what Jesus did was unconditional.   I completely agree that the long term (eternal) effect of his unconditional atonement is conditional based on our willingness to appreciate; as the statement you quoted implies.  What is clearly not said is that there is even, at least a single individual that is not forgiven and allowed to change from their sinful natural man to a saint of G-d.  Just that for some (based on more than one factor) the effect will be longer (eternal) and more effective.

This is meaningless wordsmithing.

53 minutes ago, Traveler said:

What is clearly not said is that there is even, at least a single individual that is not forgiven and allowed to change from their sinful natural man to a saint of G-d.

Except that it is clearly said in the case of the sons of perdition.

54 minutes ago, Traveler said:

  I must realize that thought I am unworthy and though I fail at my repentance I can still have hope in the Atonement of Christ?  I cannot condemn any man without condemning myself.  I cannot say Jesus will forgive me – over and over – again and again and that there is someone that remains unforgiven.  I am convinced that when the truth is manifested that no one will deny Christ and have some sorrow for his suffering.  My only hope is to plead for mercy for me and all like me that struggle with some sin.  I also exhort that it is impossible to condemn anyone as unworthy of the atonement without reaping such condemnation on yourself.

To condemn another is a sin. Plainly. Obviously.

To understand that certain people who make certain choices will be condemned because God said it will be so is not.

It's a typical leftist sort of strategy to conflate these two ideas. Saying that those who sin and do not repent will be condemned is not condemning anyone. It's a simple truth.

If I said, "Traveler, if you sin and do not repent you will be condemned" is not the same thing as saying "Traveler, you are condemned". One is a principle of law as given by God and the other is a statement of judgment.

[Traveler]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Saying that those who sin and do not repent will be condemned is not condemning anyone. It's a simple truth.

 

Have you ever sinned and not repented?  or is there even a single sin for which you have not repented?  If I were to say what you have said - I would fear more for myself than anyone else.

Perhaps I should ask questions more directly? - do you qualify yourself as someone exempt from or worthy of condemnation?  Do you realize that the title of Satan is accuser and that the similar title given to Christ is advocate?  Which are you?

Or as Jesus said - let him who is without sin cast the first stone.  - Which could bring us to Nephi - but that I believe is a very different subject.

In case you or anyone else is wondering - I obviously have a problem with those that think they know anybody worthy of condemnation or think they should be the voce of condemnation.  But not enough to say they will not be forgiven because I believe there will be forgiveness.  I believe we should teach repentance and forgiveness - not because of fear for anything that comes from not repenting or not forgiving but for what is possible and inevitable because of repentance and forgiveness - and forgiving at least enough to believe that whoever we forgive will be forgiven.  What is the point to forgive and remain thinking - forgiveness is not possible?

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Have you ever sinned and not repented?  or is there even a single sin for which you have not repented?  If I were to say what you have said - I would fear more for myself than anyone else.

Perhaps I should ask questions more directly? - do you qualify yourself as someone exempt from or worthy of condemnation?  Do you realize that the title of Satan is accuser and that the similar title given to Christ is advocate?  Which are you?

.....

You are misunderstanding the difference between:

Zil says to John Doe: "John, you're a vile Son of Perdition, you demon!"

...and Zil saying: "According to scripture, those described as the Sons of Perdition do not receive forgiveness.  I don't know who may or may not be a Son of Perdition, but this is what scripture teaches us."

The former is wrong, judgemental, contrary to everything we are taught.  The second is acknowledging scripture and does not constitute Zil condemning anyone.

TFP is talking about the latter.  You are talking about the former.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

Have you ever sinned and not repented?  or is there even a single sin for which you have not repented?  If I were to say what you have said - I would fear more for myself than anyone else.

Perhaps I should ask questions more directly? - do you qualify yourself as someone exempt from or worthy of condemnation?  Do you realize that the title of Satan is accuser and that the similar title given to Christ is advocate?  Which are you?

Or as Jesus said - let him who is without sin cast the first stone.  - Which could bring us to Nephi - but that I believe is a very different subject.

In case you or anyone else is wondering - I obviously have a problem with those that think they know anybody worthy of condemnation or think they should be the voce of condemnation.  But not enough to say they will not be forgiven because I believe there will be forgiveness.  I believe we should teach repentance and forgiveness - not because of fear for anything that comes from not repenting or not forgiving but for what is possible and inevitable because of repentance and forgiveness - and forgiving at least enough to believe that whoever we forgive will be forgiven.  What is the point to forgive and remain thinking - forgiveness is not possible?

 

The Traveler

It's like we don't even speak the same language.

See @zil's post. Not that I expect you'll understand that any better as she says the exact same thing I said.

Also, I'm not sure how it is you're thinking I'm expressing my ideas or opinions. The principles of condemnation for sin and repentance being requisite for forgiveness are repeatedly taught in the scriptures and by our prophets and apostles. As in (references not provided):

 

"And also, what is this that Ammon said—If ye will repent ye shall be saved, and if ye will not repent, ye shall be cast off at the last day?"

"Thou shalt not steal; and he that stealeth and will not repent shall be cast out."

"Thou shalt not lie; he that lieth and will not repent shall be cast out."

"But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;"

"And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it."

"But if he deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned."

"Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door."

"And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received."

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

"Many have marveled because of his death; but it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned."

"and the wicked will be condemned"

etc. etc.

 

Well...C'est la vie. Some enjoy making up a philosophies that contradict basic and plain teachings of the church and scriptures and then try to pass those ideas off as valid with convoluted, twisted logic and emotional pleading.

As for you direct questions:

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Have you ever sinned and not repented? 

No.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

If I were to say what you have said - I would fear more for myself than anyone else.

It's not my words. See the quotes above and hundreds of others in a similar vein by prophets, apostles, and the Lord Himself.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

do you qualify yourself as someone exempt from or worthy of condemnation? 

That depends upon my state of sins and repentance.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

do you realize that the title of Satan is accuser and that the similar title given to Christ is advocate?  Which are you?

As I am literally repeating the words of Christ and His prophets I'm not very bothered by this sort of tactic.

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

What is the point to forgive and remain thinking - forgiveness is not possible?

If we had the ability to know if and when someone was beyond forgiveness (son of perdition) then there would be little point in declaring repentance to said person. As it is, and as I'm sure you well know, we have been commanded to not judge, forgive all men, and preach repentance to all.

I'm astounded that you can't understand the difference between the principle of needing to repent for forgiveness and the principle of not judging and condemning another.

Since you clearly cannot tell this difference, I don't see much point in further back and forth on the matter though.

[Guest]

Traveler: Everyone can be forgiven.

TFP: Except the Sons of Perdition.

Traveler: "Everyone" means "everyone."

TFP: No, the SOPs are  excluded per the prophets.

Traveler: How judgmental of you. 

TFP: I'm repeating what the prophets have said.

Traveler: How can you judge others like this and think you are exempt?

TFP: I'm repeating what the prophets have said.  I never said anything about myself (included or excluded).

Traveler: I refuse to judge you but you're obviously wrong and need repentance.  But I won't judge you, so I'll just judge myself for judging you, which I'm not doing.  But you shouldn't either.

TFP: Hello, Traveler, this is Earth.  Have we met?