The Great Plan of Salvation vs Principles & Doctrine

[Rob Osborn]

55 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have no idea what you are talking about - what knee will not bow in the end and admit the Christ?  Is there some element of "Pride" in your post that has convinced you that you are forgiven and someone else with tears in their eyes – begging for forgiveness will not be forgiven?

It is my honest belief that there will never come a time when G-d will force someone into a “place” that they have not chosen for themselves through the deepest desires of their soul and thank the G-d that so allowed it.  I reject the notion that believing in Christ makes a person less responsible for what they personally love and how they behave in this mortal existence.  I actually believe that those that believe in Christ will be held to a higher standard when they meet G-d.  And in essence have less to brag about and should be careful in condemning others.  If they are not careful they will begin to love condemning and find such evil practice an element of personal joy.

 

The Traveler

You missed my point I was trying to make. True repentance is a process that requires baptism. Without baptism no repentance is complete, of no effect. The telestial heirs are said not to accept this process.

[Traveler]

50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You missed my point I was trying to make. True repentance is a process that requires baptism. Without baptism no repentance is complete, of no effect. The telestial heirs are said not to accept this process.

Interesting thought - would you say repentance (baptism) is not complete until an individual accepts the Gift of the Holy Ghost?  And is that enough? - are they done then with the repentance process?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Interesting thought - would you say repentance (baptism) is not complete until an individual accepts the Gift of the Holy Ghost?  And is that enough? - are they done then with the repentance process?

 

The Traveler

Its not complete until one has received the holy ghost and are changed from their carnal disposition in that thing.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its not complete until one has received the holy ghost and are changed from their carnal disposition in that thing.

 

Would you mind if I presented you with my understanding of things? – as to why I am not sure your logic is taking everything into account.  I believe you count yourself as an expert in contradictions. 

Here is my problem with your conclusion.  Jesus told the Pharisees that there is no difference between healing someone and forgiving them of their sins.  If you disagree or do not think Jesus said any such thing we will need to discuss this point in greater detail.   Now for the next step in my logic and understanding.  In the resurrection (and all will be resurrected).  If you do not believe all that all that come to earth and die will be resurrected – then we need to discuss this point.  The final point is that in the resurrection; all will be raised to incorruption – in other words everyone will be healed – or as Jesus said – They will be forgiven of their sins.

If you would like to make a contrary point to this logic – I am listening.

 

Thanks

 

The Traveler

[zil]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Would you mind if I presented you with my understanding of things? – as to why I am not sure your logic is taking everything into account.  I believe you count yourself as an expert in contradictions. 

Here is my problem with your conclusion.  Jesus told the Pharisees that there is no difference between healing someone and forgiving them of their sins.  If you disagree or do not think Jesus said any such thing we will need to discuss this point in greater detail.   Now for the next step in my logic and understanding.  In the resurrection (and all will be resurrected).  If you do not believe all that all that come to earth and die will be resurrected – then we need to discuss this point.  The final point is that in the resurrection; all will be raised to incorruption – in other words everyone will be healed – or as Jesus said – They will be forgiven of their sins.

If you would like to make a contrary point to this logic – I am listening.

Thanks

The Traveler

Huh.  This would imply that even the Sons of Perdition are forgiven of their sins (since they too will be resurrected)...  I don't think that's really a problem, but it is an interesting idea I had not previously considered.

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, zil said:

Huh.  This would imply that even the Sons of Perdition are forgiven of their sins (since they too will be resurrected)...  I don't think that's really a problem, but it is an interesting idea I had not previously considered.

It's not worth considering.

[Guest MormonGator]

29 minutes ago, zil said:

Huh.  This would imply that even the Sons of Perdition are forgiven of their sins (since they too will be resurrected)...  I don't think that's really a problem, but it is an interesting idea I had not previously considered.

I used to hope that there was some type of salvation for all of us, even sons of perdition. An eternity in hell would be horrific. Then again, if Hitler goes to the same the place in the afterlife that Mother Theresa does-something isn't right.

[Traveler]

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's not worth considering.

I am curious – do you think Jesus lied or that some are raised in corruption?  That some are not healed during the resurrection?  Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus actually did not suffered for certain sins?  I do not understand why sometimes you refuse to explain why you disagree with something?  And yet you find it necessary to respond?????

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I used to hope that there was some type of salvation for all of us, even sons of perdition. An eternity in hell would be horrific. Then again, if Hitler goes to the same the place in the afterlife that Mother Theresa does-something isn't right.

I am of a different mind - I believe we should rejoyce with ever soul that would spend eternity with G-d.   And have deep sorrow for anyone that does not return.  I also believe that if there is someone from the darkest place that would repent - that G-d would be glad and rejoyce.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am of a different mind - I believe we should rejoyce with ever soul that would spend eternity with G-d.   And have deep sorrow for anyone that does not return.  I also believe that if there is someone from the darkest place that would repent - that G-d would be glad and rejoyce.

 

The Traveler

@Traveler, if there is one thing I can get from reading your posts on the forum it's that you are a fundamentally compassionate and forgiving guy. I so admire that about you, for sure. 

[Traveler]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Traveler, if there is one thing I can get from reading your posts on the forum it's that you are a fundamentally compassionate and forgiving guy. I so admire that about you, for sure. 

There are always exceptions - but it does seem to me that not being forgiving does more damage to the unforgiving that those that caused the problem to start with.  Also It would seem to me that in 99.999999% of the time when there is disagreement - the one that disagrees is not understanding something.  Except that you live in Florida - I think you are a great guy and am glad to have met you on the forum - the next time I am in Florida - I would like to meet you - if it is possible.  I will buy dinner.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

Would you mind if I presented you with my understanding of things? – as to why I am not sure your logic is taking everything into account.  I believe you count yourself as an expert in contradictions. 

Here is my problem with your conclusion.  Jesus told the Pharisees that there is no difference between healing someone and forgiving them of their sins.  If you disagree or do not think Jesus said any such thing we will need to discuss this point in greater detail.   Now for the next step in my logic and understanding.  In the resurrection (and all will be resurrected).  If you do not believe all that all that come to earth and die will be resurrected – then we need to discuss this point.  The final point is that in the resurrection; all will be raised to incorruption – in other words everyone will be healed – or as Jesus said – They will be forgiven of their sins.

If you would like to make a contrary point to this logic – I am listening.

 

Thanks

 

The Traveler

The just will come forth in the resurrection of the just. These are all those who have repented of all their sins and are justified through the atonement to become cleansed. The unjust will come forth in the resurrection of the unjust and will not be justified to become cleansed from their sins because they repent not. They remain filthy still.

Christ will only forgive the repentant souls.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The just will come forth in the resurrection of the just. These are all those who have repented of all their sins and are justified through the atonement to become cleansed. The unjust will come forth in the resurrection of the unjust and will not be justified to become cleansed from their sins because they repent not. They remain filthy still.

Christ will only forgive the repentant souls.

Just as a point of clarification – as we talk about justice – It seems only just to me that those that know better (especially those that claim to know more) be held to a higher standard than those that are confused, a little lost and not quite sure what is right.  I would think that those that know the most will be held to a higher standard of justice.

I often wonder about those that pretend to know a lot about justice and think it will not be so hard on them as it is on others.   I have doubts that those that often talk about the resurrection of the just that seem think most everybody, but them, should be worried.

My plan is to beg for all the mercy I can get – for myself and anyone else interested in mercy.  If it comes down to justice – I do not have a chance.   I do not know anyone that ought to feel that they got it made.  If you are not worried about yourself – you might want to rethink your actual chances.  Kind of like the Apostles that were close to Jesus at the last supper and when Jesus told them that one of them had a problem.  The good apostles (that we think should have the least worries) all – every one of them asked, “L-rd is it I”.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am curious – do you think Jesus lied or that some are raised in corruption?  That some are not healed during the resurrection?  Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus actually did not suffered for certain sins?  I do not understand why sometimes you refuse to explain why you disagree with something?  And yet you find it necessary to respond?????

 

The Traveler

I reject your insinuation that my style of forum-ing is inferior to yours. A) I'm only a windbag some of the time. B) I have an actual job wherein I am not always able to do more than a quick reply. C) I'm smart enough to understand that a discussion forum leads to discussion and that a quick reply will generate responses that will then lead to further discussion. D) When have I ever been known to refuse to explain myself over the course of a discussion?

You well know all of this which means your last two sentences are clearly designed as an attack to disgrace and discredit me. Well la-dee-whoopdee-doo-da for you.

 

The primary logical flaw is in the idea that Jesus's allegories and comparative references are direct equations. The "no difference" conclusion is plainly faulty. That sets up the premise for the false relationship -- that being raised physically to incorruption equates to being raised spiritually to incorruption, something clearly explained as false in the teachings of Alma to his son and explicitly declared as false by Paul.

Edited June 16, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

Just as a point of clarification – as we talk about justice – It seems only just to me that those that know better (especially those that claim to know more) be held to a higher standard than those that are confused, a little lost and not quite sure what is right.  I would think that those that know the most will be held to a higher standard of justice.

I often wonder about those that pretend to know a lot about justice and think it will not be so hard on them as it is on others.   I have doubts that those that often talk about the resurrection of the just that seem think most everybody, but them, should be worried.

My plan is to beg for all the mercy I can get – for myself and anyone else interested in mercy.  If it comes down to justice – I do not have a chance.   I do not know anyone that ought to feel that they got it made.  If you are not worried about yourself – you might want to rethink your actual chances.  Kind of like the Apostles that were close to Jesus at the last supper and when Jesus told them that one of them had a problem.  The good apostles (that we think should have the least worries) all – every one of them asked, “L-rd is it I”.

 

The Traveler

And...exactly what does this have to do with what we were talking about?

[The Folk Prophet]

16 hours ago, zil said:

Huh.  This would imply that even the Sons of Perdition are forgiven of their sins (since they too will be resurrected)...  I don't think that's really a problem, but it is an interesting idea I had not previously considered.

 

16 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's not worth considering.

 

16 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am curious – do you think Jesus lied or that some are raised in corruption?  That some are not healed during the resurrection?  Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus actually did not suffered for certain sins?  I do not understand why sometimes you refuse to explain why you disagree with something?  And yet you find it necessary to respond?????

 

The Traveler

Incidentally, the primary reason that the idea of the Sons of Perdition will be forgiven isn't worth consideration is because it can easily be refuted in the scriptures directly and explicitly:

"The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world" D&C 132:27

See also Matt. 12:32 (31–32); Heb. 6:6 (4–6); 10:29 (26–29); D&C 42:18; 76:34 (31, 34–35); 84:41.

Edited June 16, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am curious – do you think Jesus lied or that some are raised in corruption?  That some are not healed during the resurrection?  Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus actually did not suffered for certain sins? 

Do you pick and choose which scriptures you're going to depend on?  Or do you look at all the scriptures on a topic to gain better understanding?

Do you believe scriptures that say different things about a topic contradict each other?  Or do you believe they each address a different aspect of the same topic under different conditions to give us better understanding?

[zil]

53 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Incidentally, the primary reason that the idea of the Sons of Perdition will be forgiven isn't worth consideration is because it can easily be refuted in the scriptures directly and explicitly:

"The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world" D&C 132:27

See also Matt. 12:32 (31–32); Heb. 6:6 (4–6); 10:29 (26–29); D&C 42:18; 76:34 (31, 34–35); 84:41.

I agree, scripture easily refutes it.  I should probably have said I don't see a problem discussing the idea, but I think you'd have to play semantics, make an exception, and whatnot to make the idea work.  (e.g. all their other sins were forgiven, maybe the unpardonable sin can only be committed after resurrection, or some other bit of finagling to make it work.)

[Traveler]

46 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do you pick and choose which scriptures you're going to depend on?  Or do you look at all the scriptures on a topic to gain better understanding?

Do you believe scriptures that say different things about a topic contradict each other?  Or do you believe they each address a different aspect of the same topic under different conditions to give us better understanding?

 

Perhaps I see things a little different.  As I consider those that experience mortality – I believe that they are indeed forgiven – everyone both of any and all individuals and their sins.   Thus, I can understand that the atonement of Christ was indeed infinite.   It is not impossible for me to understand that even though someone is forgiven and made pure or sinless in the moment – that who they are and what they do will not change – unless they have repented.  In short – I believe it is divine to forgive.  I do not believe that there are any times when forgiveness and sacrifice are not divine.

So, I can understand that Christ would pay for sin – even of those that are perditious.   But G-d does not change our hearts and souls – that is the choice of our agency.  That must come from within ourselves and nowhere else.  The sons of perdition are preditious – not because G-d will not or does not forgive them or offer salvation but because the love of G-d and his mercy does not matter to them.  It makes no difference – they still choose darkness over the light.  Their fate is their choice and - because of or in spite of anything and everything G-d does or does not do for them.  Their fate has nothing at all to do with G-d and is all about them and their choice.

In short I believe being a son of perdition is a matter of pure agency and individual choice – and that G-d loves all his children and would and does forgive in a heartbeat.  But the sons and daughter of perdition are so determined – of themselves, that they become what they want and not at all what G-d would open for them, forgive and let them become.

 

BTW one difference I believe to be a big thing between Satan and G-d is that G-d forgives (always) and Satan does not (ever).

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

44 minutes ago, zil said:

I agree, scripture easily refutes it.  I should probably have said I don't see a problem discussing the idea, but I think you'd have to play semantics, make an exception, and whatnot to make the idea work.  (e.g. all their other sins were forgiven, maybe the unpardonable sin can only be committed after resurrection, or some other bit of finagling to make it work.)

Sure. You can semantically re-work the meaning of "forgive" to make the idea work, which is exactly what I suspect Traveler is doing. In scripture and in the church, however, forgiveness of sin equates to Celestial Kingdom worthy. If God has forgiven your sins then you qualify for His glory. He cannot forgive those who do not repent. He will forgive those who do. The concept is not obscure or deep. It's practically the most basic doctrine of the church. Repent of your sins and the Lord will forgive you and your garments, though red as blood, will be made white as snow. Do not repent and and you remain red, unforgiven, unsaved, etc.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Perhaps I see things a little different.  As I consider those that experience mortality –

That is the source of your misunderstanding.  You're seeing a pattern in mortality and assuming it will continue in eternity. 

While this may be true for some things (which we've been told through revelation will be) it is not true for others (again because revelation has told us so). 

The source of this false doctrine is that you are projecting your own sense of right and wrong, justice and mercy, and believe that God must therefore abide by your judgment.  This is a common methodology.  And often produces good results when it is well intentioned.  But when we have direct revelation saying otherwise, who are you to command God?

Edited June 16, 2017 by Guest

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I reject your insinuation that my style of forum-ing is inferior to yours. A) I'm only a windbag some of the time. B) I have an actual job wherein I am not always able to do more than a quick reply. C) I'm smart enough to understand that a discussion forum leads to discussion and that a quick reply will generate responses that will then lead to further discussion. D) When have I ever been known to refuse to explain myself over the course of a discussion?

You well know all of this which means your last two sentences are clearly designed as an attack to disgrace and discredit me. Well la-dee-whoopdee-doo-da for you.

 

The primary logical flaw is in the idea that Jesus's allegories and comparative references are direct equations. The "no difference" conclusion is plainly faulty. That sets up the premise for the false relationship -- that being raised physically to incorruption equates to being raised spiritually to incorruption, something clearly explained as false in the teachings of Alma to his son and explicitly declared as false by Paul.

If' you would notice - my style is to ask question.  Especially question ask in such a matter to perhaps force someone to consider a different point of view.  It appears to me, and you can correct me if I am wrong.  That you tend to not consider any other view than your own and denounce anything you thing is different.   I may have missed it - if you have ever tryed to drill down and understand someone else point of view.  And to be honest - I do not have any idea how you come to your conclusions.  And it would seem that any effort I make to understand - ticks you off.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That is the source of your misunderstanding.  You're seeing a pattern in mortality and assuming it will continue in eternity. 

While this may be true for some things (which we've been told through revelation will be) it is not true for others (again because revelation has told us so). 

The source of this false doctrine is that you are projecting your own sense of right and wrong, justice and mercy, and believe that God must therefore abide by your judgment.  This is a common methodology.  And often produces good results.  But when we have direct revelation saying otherwise, who are you to command God?

 

If I was following the pattern of mortality - I would not believe in forgiveness.  I see no patter of mortal life (the fact that all die) that would suggest forgiveness.  It is a spiritual understanding that I believe that those that are not forgiven - it is not because G-d does not forgive but because they refuse to forgive themselves.  Therefore they remain unforgiven - not because of G-d and choices G-d makes -- but because of themself and choices they make.

I do not believe G-d would rejoyce in casting someone into everlasting darkness.  I believe he weeps over those that choose everlasting darkness.  I reject the idea that G-d forces anyone to heaven or hell.  I believe he gives us agency to choose for ourselves.  You are correct - I do see a pattern of agency.  That is why I believe G-d allows us to choose - he does not condemn or force or punish - only good can come from G-d. 

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If' you would notice - my style is to ask question. 

I would not characterize the primary aspect of your "style" to be question asking.

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

That you tend to not consider any other view than your own

You are wrong.

12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

and denounce anything you thing is different.  

What I denounce is false doctrine and concepts that are contrary to the teachings of the church. It is not my view. It is not my opinion. When and if it is, I will admit it is my opinion. When the scriptures plainly say: "[something] shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." and then someone comes along and claims that [something] will have forgiveness then I denounce it because...obviously.

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I may have missed it - if you have ever tryed to drill down and understand someone else point of view. 

Even were I to bother to go and hunt through they myriad(s) of posts I've had over the years to find the instances where I've expressed something along the lines of having learned something (which I have), it wouldn't relate to the point at hand, nor is it relative to whether the scriptures, prophets and apostles teach something or not.

Your repeated attacks upon my character isn't useful, doesn't provide evidence as to the correctness of your views, and is, frankly, childish.

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

And to be honest - I do not have any idea how you come to your conclusions. 

I come to my conclusions by reading the scriptures and actually listening to the teachings of the prophets and apostles and by not letting myself be swayed by every wind of doctrine proposed by some anonymous person on the internet who thinks they've figured it all out with their brilliance and logic.

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 And it would seem that any effort I make to understand - ticks you off.

 I find this amusing. I'm many, many years too grown up to allow myself to be ticked off by some random view on the internet. Mildly annoyed at times...sure. Typically that stems from personal attacks on my character like you seem to enjoy doing recently.

[estradling75]

In the Book of Mormon Alma teaches his son about the Resurrection and he clearly explains that the Resurrection/Restoration is not a cleansing event. Because is son was confused by it and thought it might justify certain actions.  He taught that it restores good for good evil for evil, righteousness for righteousness, wickedness for wickedness.  He then states quite clearly that resurrection would not justify the sinner but instead would more fully condemn him.