Brother of Jared

[cdowis]

A question was recently asked on Quora, why wasn't the name of the brother of Jared given in the Book of Mormon.  There are the usual explanations, but I thought you may find this  response interesting.

 

I would like to add another possibility.

Jared was the leader of he group, so that Mahonri was actually called by the people “the brother of Jared”. It was his common name == something like Big Charles and Little Charles, and, in this case, Jared and The Brother of Jared.

Thus, “the” should have been capitalized as part of his common name (nickname). So his name was actually given to us.

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by cdowis

[Guest]

"Jared" would have been a transliteration.  Yet no similar phonemes exist in Mahonri Moriancumer.

[estradling75]

We read in the Book of Mormon on how the Lamanites wanted to destroy the records of the Nephites.  Normally we read this as Satan wanting to destroy the scriptures so no one had the word of God... But there are other reasons.  The records also documented the right to rule.  Note for example the people of Zarahelma they were descendants of the King of Israel, yet they brought no records with them so they did not rule.. Descendants of Nephi did, because they had a record to their right to the government.  (Which the Lamanites directly opposes and challenge).

Therefore any one that wanted to rule had to have their own records and had a vested interest in removing or altering counter records.

Now on to the Jaredite records.  We read that the Kingdom went to Jared's Sons in spite of the Brother of Jared having been very instrumental in getting them there.  So what was to keep the descendants of the Brother of Jared to later try to claim a right to the kingdom using the records?  By having the official records subordinate him by identifying him only by his relationship rather then as his own person.   Thus the "Brother of Jared" being awesome increases the stature of Jared without establishing the brother as his own person.

 

 

[cdowis]

51 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Jared" would have been a transliteration.  Yet no similar phonemes exist in Mahonri Moriancumer.

And......???

Do you understand the difference between a "proper name" ( Mahonri Moriancumer) and a "nickname" (The Brother of Jared)?

Edited June 15, 2017 by cdowis

[zil]

At home, in notes from an institute class, I have a rough translation of what Mahonri Moriancumer may have meant.  It was very interesting (and related to Master Mahan), but I don't remember the details.  If I remember when I get home, I'll dig out the notebook and flip through the pages to see if it's still interesting.

Regarding @estradling75's comment, at some point, descendants of the brother of Jared did have the kingship, but they were overthrown by descendants of Jared - I have it mapped out at home (ask if you want the details).  It is my theory that this is in part why Ether was so hated by the king of his day (competing claims to the throne).

[mordorbund]

2 hours ago, zil said:

I have a rough translation of what Mahonri Moriancumer may have meant.

"Jared's male sibling"

[zil]

8 hours ago, zil said:

At home, in notes from an institute class, I have a rough translation of what Mahonri Moriancumer may have meant.  It was very interesting (and related to Master Mahan), but I don't remember the details.  If I remember when I get home, I'll dig out the notebook and flip through the pages to see if it's still interesting.

OK, that took forever to find.  I'm summarizing bits from Reynolds and Sjodahl, Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Volume 6.  I'm not claiming it is or is not true, just telling you what it says...

The Mahon part means one who is the master of a great secret.  (But the secret known to the brother of Jared was, of course, much different from that known by Cain.)

The "r" in Mahonri, may be an abbreviation of "nr" which meant "man".  The "i" may be an abbreviation of "Jah"

Thus, Mahonri Moriancumer would mean "The Master of the mystery of Jehovah, who stands up for the Lord".

(I'm still looking for where it translates Moriancumer, which it didn't do before it stated the above..... And, it's not there.  I have a photocopy of a single page, so Moriancumer must have been explained earlier...?)

8 hours ago, zil said:

Regarding @estradling75's comment, at some point, descendants of the brother of Jared did have the kingship, but they were overthrown by descendants of Jared - I have it mapped out at home (ask if you want the details).  It is my theory that this is in part why Ether was so hated by the king of his day (competing claims to the throne).

OK, 11:17-18: another "mighty man" (unnamed here) a descendant of the brother of Jared rose up and overthrew the kingdom of Moron (a descendant of Jared) and thereafter, the rightful kings (by descent anyway) dwelt in captivity.  Moron begat Coriantor in captivity.  And Coriantor fathers Ether (the prophet).  Thus, Ether is the rightful king and a descendant of Jared.  And we have an unnamed descendant of the brother of Jared on the throne.

In chapter 12, we learn that someone named Coriantumr is king. While we can't be entirely certain, it's probable he's either the unnamed king from chapter 11, or his son.  Thus, we have the brother of Jared's family ruling and Jared's family in captivity.  Is it any wonder Coriantumr (of the usurping line) wouldn't listen to Ether (of the ruling line)?  (Not that I would excuse him or anything, just saying...)

Edited June 16, 2017 by zil

[Fether]

16 hours ago, Carborendum said:

"Jared" would have been a transliteration.  Yet no similar phonemes exist in Mahonri Moriancumer.

Mahonri and his people spoke a different language than the people of Nephi so it makes sense than there type of language and phrases in Ether may be a little different (Even though it was translated into the Nephite language by Mosiah and then into English by JSJ)

It would make sense that they spoke the same language Adam did. Up until the the Tower of Babel where the tongues were confounded, no one would have needed to start a new language.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Fether

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Fether said:

Mahonri and his people spoke a different language than the people of Nephi so it makes sense than there type of language and phrases in Ether may be a little different (Even though it was translated into the Nephite language by Mosiah and then into English by JSJ)

It would make sense that they spoke the same language Adam did. Up until the the Tower of Babel where the tongues were confounded, no one would have needed to start a new language.

First, I believe cdowis addressed my comment fairly well.

Second, do you know the difference between transliteration and translation?

[Fether]

55 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

First, I believe cdowis addressed my comment fairly well.

Second, do you know the difference between transliteration and translation?

Maybe not be able to define it as well as others, but yes. There isn't a Spanish translation of my name, but there is a way to spell it in Spanish to give it the same sound.

I simply misunderstood what you said. I thought you were referring to the whole phrase of "the brother of Jared" and commenting how it doesn't happen elsewhere in the Book of Mormon. I was simply trying to give a possible reason as to why that was.

[estradling75]

13 hours ago, zil said:

In chapter 12, we learn that someone named Coriantumr is king. While we can't be entirely certain, it's probable he's either the unnamed king from chapter 11, or his son.  Thus, we have the brother of Jared's family ruling and Jared's family in captivity.  Is it any wonder Coriantumr (of the usurping line) wouldn't listen to Ether (of the ruling line)?  (Not that I would excuse him or anything, just saying...)

 

Indeed it supports it quite well...  I am sure Corinantumr had his own records where the Brother of Jared is rightfully named... and very possibly calling Jared the Brother of Mahonri.

But it was Ether's record that the Lord preserved and passed down.

[cdowis]

10 hours ago, Fether said:

It would make sense that they spoke the same language Adam did. Up until the the Tower of Babel where the tongues were confounded, no one would have needed to start a new language.

Actually, Nibley points out the possibility that they did not retain the Adamic language, but simply had a common language among themselves and friends.  They would understand each other in this new language.

Edited June 16, 2017 by cdowis

[Fether]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

Actually, Nibley points out the possibility that they did not retain the Adamic language, but simply had a common language among themselves and friends.  They would understand each other in this new language.

Really??? I would be interested to know the source  not for proof but to learn

[zil]

26 minutes ago, Fether said:

Really??? I would be interested to know the source  not for proof but to learn

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1106&index=15

and

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1106&index=11

...though there may be other places where Nibley talks about the language of the Jaredites and I just haven't gotten there yet...

[Fether]

10 minutes ago, zil said:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1106&index=15

and

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1106&index=11

...though there may be other places where Nibley talks about the language of the Jaredites and I just haven't gotten there yet...

I always used the qutation Ether 13:24  "thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them." And thought the reason he was so mighty in writing was because he was still speaking the language taught to Adam by God (assuming there was one). Those are sweet articles though! Thanks for sharing!

[Guest]

I'm wondering why no one has mentioned what I thought was a pretty common theory.  His name was simply too long to keep writing so often.  With many languages, an addition of a single syllable can mean "brother of"--example: Jaredbro.  That's a lot shorter in any tongue than Mahonri Moriancumer.  That is tremendously longer in some languages because of the way some vowels are written.

Has anyone else heard this theory?  Just me?

[cdowis]

On 6/28/2017 at 1:42 PM, Carborendum said:

I'm wondering why no one has mentioned what I thought was a pretty common theory.  His name was simply too long to keep writing so often.  With many languages, an addition of a single syllable can mean "brother of"--example: Jaredbro.  That's a lot shorter in any tongue than Mahonri Moriancumer.  That is tremendously longer in some languages because of the way some vowels are written.

Has anyone else heard this theory?  Just me?

This is the commonly accepted theory, and I just suggested another alternative.

[Guest]

On 6/15/2017 at 7:42 PM, zil said:

OK, that took forever to find.  I'm summarizing bits from Reynolds and Sjodahl, Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Volume 6.  I'm not claiming it is or is not true, just telling you what it says...

The Mahon part means one who is the master of a great secret.  (But the secret known to the brother of Jared was, of course, much different from that known by Cain.)

The "r" in Mahonri, may be an abbreviation of "nr" which meant "man".  The "i" may be an abbreviation of "Jah"

Thus, Mahonri Moriancumer would mean "The Master of the mystery of Jehovah, who stands up for the Lord".

(I'm still looking for where it translates Moriancumer, which it didn't do before it stated the above..... And, it's not there.  I have a photocopy of a single page, so Moriancumer must have been explained earlier...?)

How is he coming up with these translations?  His name would have been in a completely unknown tongue.  So to attempt translation from a completely unknown tongue using known tongues via earthly means is like throwing darts on a board.

Why does everyone think that anything ancient and religious must come from Hebrew roots?

Edited June 30, 2017 by Guest

[zil]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

How is he coming up with these translations?  His name would have been in a completely unknown tongue.  So to attempt translation from a completely unknown tongue using known tongues via earthly means is like throwing darts on a board.

Why does everyone think that anything ancient and religious must come from Hebrew roots?

No idea.  You'd have to ask Reynolds and Sjodahl where they came up with all this - I assume the book has more to say on the matter than my single-page photocopy.  Maybe they assumed a translation from the Jaredite language to the Nephite language about which more is known?  Like I said, I'm just relating what they said. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

No idea.  You'd have to ask Reynolds and Sjodahl where they came up with all this - I assume the book has more to say on the matter than my single-page photocopy.  Maybe they assumed a translation from the Jaredite language to the Nephite language about which more is known?  Like I said, I'm just relating what they said. 

I realize this isn't necessarily your opinion.  You're just sharing what you read by others.  I just have a hard time with stuff like this.

There was no Nephite translation.  It isn't in the BoM.  So, again, what are they using as a basis?  Yes. Yes.  I'd have to ask them.  But I really turn a critical eye at stuff like this because of some obviously large logical/scholarly holes in their theories.

[NightSG]

His name was actually Bubba, and the whole mess has been a coverup to preserve the Church culture's disdain for rednecks.

Don't get me started on how all of Christianity has intentionally mistranslated Jim-Bob the Baptist for the same reason.

Edited June 30, 2017 by NightSG

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, NightSG said:

His name was actually Bubba, and the whole mess has been a coverup to preserve the Church culture's disdain for rednecks.

Is that like my post about "Bob"?

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

His name was actually Bubba, and the whole mess has been a coverup to preserve the Church culture's disdain for rednecks.

Hmmmmm... any chance his code name at the convention was "'llustrous Potentate". And Jared's real name was Coy and he went by "Noble Lumpkin" at the convention? I don't know...I don't know if I can see Jared with a Harley on the high dive.

Edited June 30, 2017 by MrShorty