Deceived

[The Folk Prophet]

Mosiah 26:6 speaks of people being deceived by "flattering words", which seems tied into the idea of vanity.

 

On a total side note, every time I've typed the word "deceived" I have to correct the spelling, having reversed the i and the e. Good grief! You think I'd have learned by now. Which I have learned the proper spelling...but my fingers still type it wrong every time as I fly along. And, yes, I did know the -- i before e except after c -- rule, had I thought about it.

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

3 Nephi 2:2 mentions deception in reverse: Meaning it talks about those who begin to disbelieve the miracles and signs they've seen by imagining they were wrought by the power of men or the devil to deceive the believers. By this imagination that the believers have been deceived, they are deceived.

Interestingly the verse mentions hearts 3 times. Here it is in full with bolding:

Imagining up some vain thing in their hearts, that it was wrought by men and by the power of the devil, to lead away and deceive the hearts of the people; and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again, insomuch that he did blind their eyes and lead them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ was a foolish and a vain thing.

There's also some symmetry in the "vain" idea, they imagine up a vain thing to convince themselves the believers believe a vain thing.

Do you recognize the chiasmus in this verse?  The central theme is "and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again."

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

On a total side note, every time I've typed the word "deceived" I have to correct the spelling, having reversed the i and the e. Good grief! You think I'd have learned by now. Which I have learned the proper spelling...but my fingers still type it wrong every time as I fly along. And, yes, I did know the -- i before e except after c -- rule, had I thought about it.

"i" before "e" except after "c" when the sound is long "e".

This takes into account many words that are "e" before "i" with other vowel sounds: forfeit, counterfeit, weight, neighbor, their...

This then has the effect of creating reverse exceptions (friend).  And some exceptions remain regardless (seize).  But overall there are fewer exceptions than without the bolded addition.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

48 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do you recognize the chiasmus in this verse?  The central theme is "and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again."

I suspected the chiasmus. I hadn't delved into it deep enough to be certain, but the mere fact that it started and ended with concepts of vain made me presume.

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 0:28 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Some interesting discussion was had in Sunday School on being deceived. However, it fell right at the tag end of class (running late) and so not much depth to the discussion. But it got me interested. Are there clear scriptural guides to not being deceived? We know even the elect will be. So how do we avoid it?

So I did a search (initially confined to the D&C) and came up with these 5 scriptures. If anyone is so inclined, review them and the surrounding verses and share your thoughts.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/46.8?lang=eng#p7

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/52.14?lang=eng#p13

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/49.23?lang=eng#p22

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/45.57?lang=eng#p56

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/43.6?lang=eng#p5

 

A question I have and I apologize if I do not quite ask the question correctly.  Is it possible for someone to exercise their agency when they are being deceived?  Is it a choice of one’s agency if they choose to be deceived?   Is this even possible – can we exercise our agency and so choose to be deceived?  Or is agency a choice that requires we know what we are doing and choosing?  Or is being deceived the effect (inevitable result) of losing one’s agency?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

39 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

A question I have and I apologize if I do not quite ask the question correctly.  Is it possible for someone to exercise their agency when they are being deceived?  Is it a choice of one’s agency if they choose to be deceived?   Is this even possible – can we exercise our agency and so choose to be deceived?  Or is agency a choice that requires we know what we are doing and choosing?  Or is being deceived the effect (inevitable result) of losing one’s agency?

 

The Traveler

My thought on this is as follows: With the theoretical means we have to avoid being deceived, per the above posts and many other theoretical ideas, then the failure to make the choice to do the things listed above, which is a choice, is the choice to be deceived.

Would you say that the person who gets hit by a car had no agency in the matter? Well...sometimes...but...can you reasonably get hit by a car if you make the choice to stay away from any place that cars would ever be? If you're crossing the street a lot your chances increase. If you're crossing the street a lot without looking both ways your chances increase even more. If you are standing in the middle of the freeway acting like you own it and believe all cars will swerve to avoid you you almost deserve it. And yet none of these things equate to choosing to throw oneself in front of an on-moving car.

So do we choose deception? Directly, maybe not. But by the other choices we make? Absolutely.

This is true of so many ideas in the gospel related to choice and agency. I've debated similar ideas related to sexual perversions of various nature and yet many have seemed to be unable to grasp the connection idea of how choice and accountability actually works...even though it should be simple. If you smoke 2 packs a day you may well be able to claim you didn't "choose" cancer, but the connection should be obvious.

And in the gospel we know there is no neutrality. You either choose God, choose to actively follow Him, choose to exercise faith, etc., or you are choosing Satan and he will grasp a hold of you and blind you with deception. The fact that he's doing the deceiving isn't really the point of our agency. God has given us the means to return to him. We either choose to utilize those means or we choose not to.

Edited June 30, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My thought on this is as follows: With the theoretical means we have to avoid being deceived, per the above posts and many other theoretical ideas, then the failure to make the choice to do the things listed above, which is a choice, is the choice to be deceived.

Would you say that the person who gets hit by a car had no agency in the matter? Well...sometimes...but...can you reasonably get hit by a car if you make the choice to stay away from any place that cars would ever be? If you're crossing the street a lot your chances increase. If you're crossing the street a lot without looking both ways your chances increase even more. If you are standing in the middle of the freeway acting like you own it and believe all cars will swerve to avoid you you almost deserve it. And yet none of these things equate to choosing to throw oneself in front of an on-moving car.

So do we choose deception? Directly, maybe not. But by the other choices we make? Absolutely.

This is true of so many ideas in the gospel related to choice and agency. I've debated similar ideas related to sexual perversions of various nature and yet many have seemed to be unable to grasp the connection idea of how choice and accountability actually works...even though it should be simple. If you smoke 2 packs a day you may well be able to claim you didn't "choose" cancer, but the connection should be obvious.

And in the gospel we know there is no neutrality. You either choose God, choose to actively follow Him, choose to exercise faith, etc., or you are choosing Satan and he will grasp a hold of you and blind you with deception. The fact that he's doing the deceiving isn't really the point of our agency. God has given us the means to return to him. We either choose to utilize those means or we choose not to.

 

It seems to me that every time I think I know the answers - I find an exception.  The only case I can validate an actual choice is when there is complete knowledge and understanding - not just in what the immediate choice appears to be but what the outcome will or must be.  Obviously if we think we make a choice expecting one outcome and experience something different – somewhere we had to be deceived.   Recently I was trying to help someone through a divorce – his lament was: “Why would G-d tell him this lady was the one; if someday she would be unfaithful?”  He served a mission, married in the temple, was obedient to his covenants, has fulfilled all his callings and in every way tried to live according to the Gospel.  Why is he suffering for choices (or forced into circumstances) he did not make, did not want and never chose?  Unfortunately, he is entertaining the possibility he was deceived by G-d or at least by the church.  He thought he was being guided by the Holy Spirit.  I am not sure that telling him he was deceived because he was not obedient is actually helpful or correct.

I also have difficulty understanding Satan.  If he made choices expecting different outcome – Did he really make that choice and why is he not allowed to repent of bad choices he would change when he came to know the result?  But if he knew the outcome how could he be so stupid to choose so badly?

I would like to think I have never been deceived – but I have.  The very nature of deception is that right up until you realize you are deceived – you will not believe it.  I find that throughout history man has been deceived more than not and the most likely to be deceived are those that think (for whatever reason or excuse) that they are exempt.

Over 30 years ago, I worked on an upgraded guidance system for cruise missiles.  In essence we created a condition where many times a second the missile would update its exact position.  If there was any deviation (or path deception) we would make immediate steps to correct the mistake.  As a result, the missile was never off course by very much.  President Uchtdorf made a similar reference in a talk making reference to his piloting skills. 

I am convinced that the efforts in life is not so much to avoid deception but to repent willingly and make corrections as soon and often as we realize that we have made a mistake and been deceived.  Also, that we should make regular assessments to evaluate our progress and avoid stagnation or drifting too far unknowingly.  One thing I have learned about the way Satan deceives – he will make every effort to very carefully and skillfully counterfeit whatever we think will prevent us from being deceived.   He will even quote scripture.  And those that think they are convinced they are not being deceived and will not be deceived are – at least in my mind – the least that ought to be trusted in such matters.

One last point has to do with single point of failure.  Never trust a single source – some fain multiple input thinking that is the way of the world – but G-d always provides multiple witnesses – which is one reason for the Book of Mormon

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

@Traveler, what you're convinced of isn't convincing. I think I'll continue my study on how to avoid deception despite your pessimistic view on the matter.

[SpiritDragon]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

Obviously if we think we make a choice expecting one outcome and experience something different – somewhere we had to be deceived.    

The Traveler

This is a gem of a statement. I wonder, though, if there isn't room for simple ignorance over deception in some cases, but I suppose even then the ignorant is being deceived, aren't they?

[The Folk Prophet]

7 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

This is a gem of a statement. I wonder, though, if there isn't room for simple ignorance over deception in some cases, but I suppose even then the ignorant is being deceived, aren't they?

Except it isn't really talking about the subject at hand. I'm not concerned with a person thinking they were going get a job and then not, or thinking they were going to keep all their hair and then going bald, or thinking they were supposed to take a job and then losing it. We're talking about deception concerning salvation.

God hasn't given us the tools or made any promises concerning our hairlines. He has not promised that if we're righteous our marriages will never fall apart or we'd never lose jobs, or loved ones would never die. In fact He has told us just the opposite again and again. So, yes, if one expects these things to all work out because they made certain choices then they are deceived -- but it's a deception based on not listening to the teachings of the gospel. All one needs do is actually listen to conference, actually read the scriptures, etc. to know these sorts of things.

The answers to these kinds of dilemmas like Traveler's friend are not that complicated. His friend thought he was guided by the Spirit to marry someone and now the marriage is falling apart. Let's presume that he actually was guided by the Spirit in the matter (which he may not have been, whether Traveler thinks that it is helpful to tell  him or not wouldn't change the reality of it). The Spirit doesn't tell us something is right to do because it means all will be rainbows and unicorns by making that choice. Others have agency, and others will exercise it. So do we, and so will we exercise it for evil at times. So the Spirit confirms you are meant to marry someone but then you sit around all day playing video games and the marriage falls apart. Or you serve, love, and honor her but she sits around reading romance novels all day and finally leaves you for a long-haired Fabio type. Well...exercising choice to sin makes the promises of the Spirit invalid too. How many scriptural examples are there where the Spirit guides someone to do something and they die a horrible death in response? Are we humble enough to trust the Lord or not? How would it have been if Abinadi cried out as he died, "Why did God command me to come preach the gospel if I was just going to get burned alive for it? I have been deceived!" because He wasn't aware of Alma and all that would lead to?

Isn't it plain that trusting God and knowing that we don't and can't understand the big picture is part of not being deceived? You see we don't actually need to understand to exercise agency despite Traveler's thoughts. We only need to trust God.

It is plain, and obvious, that our walking in faith behind the veil means that we walk without full understanding. Traveler has determined that this means we can't actually have agency in life because if we don't have full knowledge we don't have choice. Of course every scripture, talk and principle taught in the church tells us we do have agency, but he feels his wisdom and understanding supersedes that. He's got some idea that we exercised our agency to pre-select our end in the pre-existence and now we are just riding along the coattails of that choice to our set-in-stone destinies. But his philosophy denies basic principles of the gospel, specifically faith and agency.

So yes, we will be "deceived" in a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter in life. None of that matters a whit to whether or not we have been given the means by God to exercise our agency to choose salvation or damnation.

In the end Traveler has thrown out a philosophy of man, and hasn't even bothered to mingle it with scripture. It's just some convoluted mortal quasi-logic. So let's discuss the word of God, not the word of Traveler. My objective is to explore the word of God to learn how to follow His command to be not deceived. Anyone with ideas of "that's not possible", is wrong. As we well know, God gives no commands without providing a way.

[SpiritDragon]

@The Folk Prophet I don't know everything that Traveller is thinking based on what he has expressed, but I do know that I liked that one phrase that I took out. To me your response appears to be throwing the baby out with the bath water. His whole premise could be in error, and you point out reasons why such could be the case. Disregarding all of that, I believe that their is a true principle in that when someone is doing something expecting a specific result and then gets a different result - they were deceived about some aspect of the process somewhere.

If Abinidi had expected to be saved from fire like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and was allowed to burn anyway he would have been deceived. There is a difference between being open to accept whatever outcome God has to offer and expecting a specific thing. Abinidi was not deceived.

I, perhaps like you, think this actually puts a greater importance on avoiding deception because I don't want to end up at the judgment bar of God thinking that I did the right things and espoused the right attitudes only to find out I've been deceived and can not inherit the expected glory. 

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

 To me your response appears to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I'm not throwing out the baby with the bath water. The idea that if we think one thing and get another means we were "deceived" (a semantic idea if ever there was one) just doesn't strike me as particularly useful. It's essentially saying that if we find out that we've been deceived then we must have been deceived. Yep. I agree.

The rest of my post was based on a long history of communication with Traveler and his views on agency and faith.

13 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

 I believe that their is a true principle in that when someone is doing something expecting a specific result and then gets a different result - they were deceived about some aspect of the process somewhere.

I think this is obvious.

14 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I, perhaps like you, think this actually puts a greater importance on avoiding deception because I don't want to end up at the judgment bar of God thinking that I did the right things and espoused the right attitudes only to find out I've been deceived and can not inherit the expected glory. 

One thought I had in reading this statement, and it may affect my future study here, is that I don't think anyone, in the end, will actually have been deceived in the true sense of the word. Deceived implies no accountability. We'll have chosen. Of course we've gone into semantics again here. But really I think it becomes about self-deception. (Alluded to in some of the scriptures posted already.)

[Guest]

22 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My thought on this is as follows: With the theoretical means we have to avoid being deceived, per the above posts and many other theoretical ideas, then the failure to make the choice to do the things listed above, which is a choice, is the choice to be deceived.

Would you say that the person who gets hit by a car had no agency in the matter? Well...sometimes...but...can you reasonably get hit by a car if you make the choice to stay away from any place that cars would ever be? If you're crossing the street a lot your chances increase. If you're crossing the street a lot without looking both ways your chances increase even more. If you are standing in the middle of the freeway acting like you own it and believe all cars will swerve to avoid you you almost deserve it. And yet none of these things equate to choosing to throw oneself in front of an on-moving car.

It's interesting you use that example.  I'm not sure how the following example affects the discussion at hand, but I'll share.

One apartment complex I lived in was on a tee.  The entire area was full of apartments. It was a low density roadway (residential).  One day walking home I noticed that an entire wall of one ground level apartment was all boarded up.  I noted it and as I went into my apartment I asked what on earth happened.  They said

Quote

There was a car coming down this road (the one parallel to the apartment).  Another car came pretty fast down the tee (heading directly to the apartment building.  But it stopped at the stop sign.  Even so, its speed spooked the car coming down the parallel road.  She turned really sharply to avoid the other car and went directly into the apartment living room.

The girls living in that apartment reported that they were saved by the Lord.  Of the four in the apartment, two were elsewhere; two were watching TV.  A commercial broke.  One went into the kitchen for a snack. The other stepped into the bathroom.  As soon as they were out of the living room, they both heard a big crash.  They came back into the living room to find a car in their living room littered with debris.

The policeman was trying to measure some skid marks or ripped up grass.  There were no such marks.  Only vague impressions of the weight of the wheels on the grass.

The young woman who was driving this red convertible was quite shaken up, but otherwise unharmed.  The bumper sticker on her car read "I'm not spoiled.  Just well taken care of."

 

[Traveler]

 

One of the great deceivers of recent time was a fellow named Mark Hoffman.  Sadly, this fellow was LDS and defrauded many good LDS folks.  One reason for his astonishing success was that he studied the methods experts use to avoid deception.   He provided what they wanted to find or thought that must be found in order to validate what they were looking for. 

I do not know how to avoid being deceived.  I can avoid being deceived most of the time - but I can and have been deceived - even by good and faithful members of the church in positions of high responsibility.   I have studied as some suggest and have come to believe that there is no way we mortals can guarantee not being deceived.   I am of the notion that going through life with the intent of avoiding deception is at its very core a very cleaver deception.  Of course, there are the obvious deceptions we can and should avoid – but using such as a method for life’s purpose can be a very slippery slope.   Just as a matter of purpose – I believe we should seeking light, truth, understanding and knowledge.  That we should be centered more on finding the good stuff and less worried about the bad deceiving stuff.  But even then, I am very certain we will find ourselves deceived at some point.

Once during my consulting work a company I work with suffered a atastrophic failure.   The CEO wanted to determine what went wrong and fire those that messed up.  I suggested a different approach.  I suggested that there are perhaps many possibilities for catastrophic failures.  Rather than try to figure out all the possibilities that we should consider what to do (how to recover) when catastrophic failures occur; to minimize the effects. 

Just this year I was contacted by the same CEO – a otherwise catastrophic failure was recovered in minutes and the main person responsible for the recovery was the very person that would have been fired for previous mistakes.  Part of the reason was because rather than worrying about themselves and their position – when things started to go wrong those in critical positions quickly reacted as a team with a common purpose. 

I ride a bicycle – I have been hit by a car twice in my more than 50 years of ridding.  Yes, I like to avoid being hit by a car.  I am a very defensive driver and rider.  But one lesson of life I have learned is that we cannot avoid all the stupid things other people do – if you ride a bicycle sooner or later someone will do something you do not expect and it will hurt you a lot.  I guess if getting through life unhurt is you main thing – you should not ride a bicycle – among other things.  But for me – I will do the best I can to avoid cars that will hit me but I am going to ride my bicycle because that is more important to me than never being hit by a car.  And if I am killed by some stupid driver – I guess some of you can be happy that I will not be bothering you with my posts (and strange ideas) anymore.

 

The Traveler

Edited July 3, 2017 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I do not know how to avoid being deceived. 

Then perhaps you should stop contributing to this thread.

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I do not know how to avoid being deceived. 

Then perhaps you should stop contributing to this thread.

Seems a bit harsh. I actually agree with Traveler, at least on a larger level.

Without having done any real study on the topic other than read briefly through the responses, my impression is that we cannot avoid being deceived in all things. We can, however, avoid being deceived in things of the Spirit. We are given the Holy Ghost and we are offered many opportunities to learn to recognize his influence. If we are wise and seek always for God, we can indeed avoid being deceived in the things of eternity through God's grace. But avoid being deceived altogether? Such would require omniscience, or at least a far greater store of knowledge and grasp of how things really work than any of us is likely ever to have in this lifetime.

[The Folk Prophet]

Looking at the New Testament today. A lot here. Might take a few days to read the surrounding scriptures, etc.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-tim/2.14?lang=eng#p13

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/titus/3.3?lang=eng#p2

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/6.9-10?lang=eng#p8

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/gal/6.7?lang=eng#p6

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/21.8?lang=eng#p7

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rev/19.20?lang=eng#p19

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/15.33?lang=eng#p32

Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/24.4-5,11,24?lang=eng#p3

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom/16.17-18?lang=eng#p16

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/2-thes/2.3?lang=eng#p2

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-jn/1.8?lang=eng#p7

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/james/1.22?lang=eng#p21

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/eph/5.6?lang=eng#p5

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/eph/4.14?lang=eng#p13

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/3.18?lang=eng#p17

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-jn/3.7?lang=eng#p6

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

Seems a bit harsh.

The question of the thread is how do we avoid being deceived per the scriptural command. I don't find the response, "I don't know how to avoid being deceived" helpful. I also think it quite obvious that the point is to discuss spiritual deception and the "you thought the ball was under the middle cup but you were wrong, it's under the left one! Haha!" kind of deception is beyond the point and somewhat of a hijacking.

Edited July 3, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The question of the thread is how do we avoid being deceived per the scriptural command. I don't find the response, "I don't know how to avoid being deceived" helpful. I also think it quite obvious that the point is to discuss spiritual deception and the "you thought the ball was under the middle cup but you were wrong, it's under the left one! Haha!" kind of deception is beyond the point and somewhat of a hijacking.

 

I guess we can sin without being deceived - I prefer to think those that chose to come to this mortal existence – only sin through some of sort of deception.  I also believe that someone claiming they cannot and will not be deceived – likely are in the very process of being deceived.  Sure, we should avoid it whenever we can – especially concerning certain things that are obvious.  

I am being very honest when I say I have not yet figured out how to avoid sin 100% of the time.  Sure, I know all the doctrines – I pretend I know mostly how to avoid sin – but I do on occasions sin.  I would be deceiving everyone to say otherwise.  I am grateful that despite thinking I know better and then somehow end up sinning – I can still repent.  That is my plan – to repent.  Sure, I work very hard to avoid sin – but my experience is that avoidance is not a 100% workable plan.  Others may think they can always avoid sinning (100% of the time) and having never to repent – but I personally believe they are being deceived thinking so. 

Plan A may be to avoid being deceived – good luck to everybody that puts all their eggs into that basket.   What I am suggesting is a plan B (called repentance) for when the plan A does not produce 100% results.  I promise that plan B (repentance) will always work – even when one has been deceived into thinking that plan A will always work.  But then maybe it is just me, because I am not as righteous as some – likely most.  But this I do know – for all that I have been deceived concerning so many things – I have never been deceived with Plan B (repentance) not working.  Not ever. 

It is true that at first repentance is not so fun and can be quite difficult or a bother – but once you get use to and the hang of it – it is not so bad.  Maybe not as fun as some things but, at least for me, repentance, when I actually do it, always brings and results in a lot a joy.  I recommend it when the plan of avoiding being deceived does not work.

 

The Traveler

[Sunday21]

On 2017-06-26 at 2:50 PM, Fether said:

One way of avoiding deception is knowing what God will and will not reveal to you. The last half of Dallin H Oaks talk titled "revelation" expounds in this quote a bit

Dear @Fether, I have been searching diligently for this talk. Bro Oakes has given many on this subject! Could you give me the full name or a link to the talk? Thanks I am really interested in the topic of deception as per revelation. Many thanks!

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear @Fether, I have been searching diligently for this talk. Bro Oakes has given many on this subject! Could you give me the full name or a link to the talk? Thanks I am really interested in the topic of deception as per revelation. Many thanks!

He may be referring to this one.

[Sunday21]

@Vort. Thank you Vort! But I don't see anything about deception in the latter half of the talk. Am I just missing it?

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

@Vort. Thank you Vort! But I don't see anything about deception in the latter half of the talk. Am I just missing it?

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks_revelation/

here it is

The first half talks about purposes of revelation and the last half talks about warnings and when we will not receive revelation even when we feel we do

Edited July 4, 2017 by Fether

[Sunday21]

@Fether Thank you!

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

I guess we can sin without being deceived

You think?

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

I prefer to think those that chose to come to this mortal existence – only sin through some of sort of deception. 

You say a lot of what you think. But can you support it with anything other than your thoughts? Like, you know....some scripture or quote that says anything of the sort? Because honestly, that would be very useful. The idea that all sin comes from deception would be interesting, if true. I expect you'll reply with some convoluted theory you've come up with based on your views of agency and the pre-existence and what-have-you...but...really.... Quotes? Scriptures? Support?

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

I also believe that someone claiming they cannot [...] be deceived – likely are in the very process of being deceived. 

Anyone "can" be deceived.

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

I also believe that someone claiming they [...] will not be deceived – likely are in the very process of being deceived.  

Our salvation is our choice. We choose or we choose not. So it strikes me that choosing that one will not be deceived is key. Otherwise we're victims and there is no justice or law.

Would you like a scripture on the matter? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Sure, we should avoid it whenever we can

"Solid, permanent progress can only take place in the days ahead if deception is avoided, no matter how advantageous it may seem to yield or compromise basic principles of conduct. Be not deceived. God is not mocked. He knows what is best for his children and those who love him and would develop the traits and characteristics shown by his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ." Marvin J. Ashton (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/10/a-pattern-in-all-things?lang=eng)