Similarity in rewards?

[askandanswer]

Is it the case that the rewards Lucifer sought for in the pre-existence – power, honour and glory¹ – in return for bringing all of his Father’s children back to the presence of God the same as the reward that is offered to us – power honour and glory² – in return for bringing back just our own soul to the presence of God?

 This is not a question about whether or not Satan’s plan would have worked, that question has been discussed extensively on this forum, I think on numerous occasions. It is a question about whether the rewards offered and sought for are the same. Because if they are the same, it raises the possibility that we and Satan, are being motivated, or “incentivised” by the same thing.

 

 1.      Moses 4:1  AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2.      D&C 75: 5  And thus, if ye are faithful ye shall be laden with many sheaves, and crowned with honor, and glory, and immortality, and eternal life.

 Doctrine and Covenants 84:38  And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father's kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

Moses 4:3

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

[zil]

When I read the relevant verses, I understand it as Satan wanting sole possession of power, honor, and glory (that is, God would not just make Satan equal, but would step down and give up what He had; and no one else would get any).

Obviously, in God's plan, we gain what God already has, without diminishing what God has.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

wherefore give me thine honor.

As zil said.  He wanted to be the top dog.  The head cheese. Numero Uno Honcho. He wanted to call the shots through force.

And that is exactly what he could not have.  The Father promises us power and glory to be used to provide liberty and eternal life, not captivity and death.  This is the reason why we can have all power granted by God and not diminish His power in any way.  We can only wield such power if we are of one mind and one will with God.  There will never be a time we would have our wills contrary to that of the Father.  What we do is what He would do.

That is not what Satan wanted -- no matter how similar the wording.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And that is exactly what he could not have.  The Father promises us power and glory to be used to provide liberty and eternal life, not captivity and death.  This is the reason why we can have all power granted by God and not diminish His power in any way.  We can only wield such power if we are of one mind and one will with God.  There will never be a time we would have our wills contrary to that of the Father.  What we do is what He would do.

And...there will never be a time when we will not give the glory to God.

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

 

 

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Moses 4:3..     I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power

 

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

.. .   therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

 

 

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, zil said:

When I read the relevant verses, I understand it as Satan wanting sole possession of power, honor, and glory (that is, God would not just make Satan equal, but would step down and give up what He had; and no one else would get any).

Obviously, in God's plan, we gain what God already has, without diminishing what God has.

Perhaps not

Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son,

[The Folk Prophet]

13 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Perhaps not

Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son,

I was going to make a similar point.

[zil]

14 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Perhaps not

Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son,

"I will be thy son... until it's all over, and I succeed, then you give it all up, cuz I did it, not you..." blah blah blah.  I could be entirely wrong.  Can't remember details about what happened, for some odd reason.  That's just how it always sounded to me.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Is it the case that the rewards Lucifer sought for in the pre-existence – power, honour and glory¹ – in return for bringing all of his Father’s children back to the presence of God the same as the reward that is offered to us – power honour and glory² – in return for bringing back just our own soul to the presence of God?

 This is not a question about whether or not Satan’s plan would have worked, that question has been discussed extensively on this forum, I think on numerous occasions. It is a question about whether the rewards offered and sought for are the same. Because if they are the same, it raises the possibility that we and Satan, are being motivated, or “incentivised” by the same thing.

 

 1.      Moses 4:1  AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2.      D&C 75: 5  And thus, if ye are faithful ye shall be laden with many sheaves, and crowned with honor, and glory, and immortality, and eternal life.

 Doctrine and Covenants 84:38  And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father's kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

 

The big issue as I see it is that Satan lied about saving Gods children. He was a liar and had no intention of saving even one soul into heaven. He was being deceptive trying to gain the glory of an immortal body.

That being said, the whole scenerio of your question changes. Satan sought for wickedness while Jesus sought for righteousness. They were opposing forces and thus why it is said Satan came out in rebellion to Christ- he rebelled and gloried in wickedness and sin.

We are motivated by righteousness and godliness, Satan is and was motivated by wickedness, lies, pride and sin.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Is it the case that the rewards Lucifer sought for in the pre-existence – power, honour and glory¹ – in return for bringing all of his Father’s children back to the presence of God the same as the reward that is offered to us – power honour and glory² – in return for bringing back just our own soul to the presence of God?

 This is not a question about whether or not Satan’s plan would have worked, that question has been discussed extensively on this forum, I think on numerous occasions. It is a question about whether the rewards offered and sought for are the same. Because if they are the same, it raises the possibility that we and Satan, are being motivated, or “incentivised” by the same thing.

 

 1.      Moses 4:1  AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2.      D&C 75: 5  And thus, if ye are faithful ye shall be laden with many sheaves, and crowned with honor, and glory, and immortality, and eternal life.

 Doctrine and Covenants 84:38  And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father's kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

 

Looking at these verses alone, the first shows an attitude of taking something away from God, or bringing Him down; the second and attitude of giving and sharing; the third an attitude of submission followed by receiving a gift. In the first, honor is taken away in a deal; in the second honor is granted in love; in the third honor is shared.

[The Folk Prophet]

No one seeking power is worthy.

It's about will. Satan sought his own will. Jesus sought God's. If we're seeking for power and glory we're on the wrong path. We must seek God's will.

[askandanswer]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

We are motivated by righteousness and godliness, Satan is and was motivated by wickedness, lies, pride and sin.

The incentive, or motivation, or reward, call it what you will, that God offered His children, and that Lucifer asked of God, seems to me to be pretty much the same - power, honour and glory. Wickedness, lies, and sin seem to me to be more like tools to achieve a goal, rather than a motivation to achieve a goal. And this is what led me to think about this question. It seems to be to be a little surprising, and perhaps a little concerning, that what Lucifer sought for, and what God is offering, seem to be so similar. It suggests that we and Lucifer are motivated or incentivised by the same things.

[askandanswer]

9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No one seeking power is worthy.

It's about will. Satan sought his own will. Jesus sought God's. If we're seeking for power and glory we're on the wrong path. We must seek God's will.

And the irony (perhaps there is a better word?) is that if we seek and  do God's will all our life, power and glory is the promised reward.

This relates closely to another question that I have been thinking about in the last week or so, but haven't yet precisely worded - something to do with the idea that the rewards on offer - power, honour and glory - might not be too appealing to those most entitled to receive them: the meek and the humble. Power, honour and glory seem like things that would be of great appeal to the proud.  

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

And the irony (perhaps there is a better word?) is that if we seek and  do God's will all our life, power and glory is the promised reward.

He that loses His life shall find it.

The first shall be last and the last first.

The gospel is full of paradoxes.

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Power, honour and glory seem like things that would be of great appeal to the proud.  

So are riches, but paraphrasing (Jacob 2;18-19) "But before ye seek for [power, honor, glory], seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain [power, honor, glory], if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted." Putting the kingdom of God first and having a hope in Christ keeps things in perspective, and the perspective we need to put the kingdom first and obtain that hope keep such things as a sense of entitlement, merit, reward, and earning foreign concepts.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The incentive, or motivation, or reward, call it what you will, that God offered His children, and that Lucifer asked of God, seems to me to be pretty much the same - power, honour and glory. Wickedness, lies, and sin seem to me to be more like tools to achieve a goal, rather than a motivation to achieve a goal. And this is what led me to think about this question. It seems to be to be a little surprising, and perhaps a little concerning, that what Lucifer sought for, and what God is offering, seem to be so similar. It suggests that we and Lucifer are motivated or incentivised by the same things.

They arent similar though, they are opposite, Satan just didnt understand. You have to go back to what was really going on. Satan wanted to have glory but thought he could achieve it through building a kingdom of destruction built upon lies, pride and sin. In reality though his methods and end result just destroy ones agency. Christ on the other hand offers true glory through obedience.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 It suggests that we and Lucifer are motivated or incentivised by the same things.

So what?

If you and I are both motivated to get food to eat but you stab a man and steal his food and I went out to get an honest job to buy the food we're both motivated by the same thing.

I find the -- being motivated by the same thing as someone evil is problematic -- idea a bit of a logical faux pas.

Edited June 29, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Jwrenf02]

I feel like the rewards are different. What's the true path of honor? Is it not humility? This is the paradox of the gospel. The rewards of lucifer are external. The rewards of Jesus are internal or intrinsic. This is the lie of Satan, we couldn't return progressed human beings under his plan of external compulsion.