Premature Death and Celestial Glory

[clbent04]

The Church says that the highest level of salvation, Celestial glory, is automatically awarded to young children who die before they reach 8 years old.  This is because sin is not possible to commit until a child reaches age 8, which is the declared age of accountability.

While this is a merciful doctrine which surely comforts parents who sadly have had to deal with the loss of a young child, is it logical to how we generally understand obtaining Celestial glory?

Should dying at a young age in itself be the reason why Celestial glory is awarded?  Is not faith in Jesus Christ prerequisite to obtaining salvation?   Many children who die before 8 years old are not even capable of comprehending the concept of Jesus Christ as a Savior to mankind.

Some say that these children of premature deaths are special, that each and every one is of Celestial caliber.  If they had been able to live out their lives they would have unquestionably succeeded in living Christlike lives worthy to return to God.

The predicament of being able to logically accept this thinking can be related to the school bus example:

A kindergarten class of 5-year-olds rides the bus home one day.  During the ride, a tire blows out and the bus driver loses control.  The bus veers off a bridge resulting in the tragic deaths of everyone aboard.   How would the teacher of this class describe her class?  Were all these children of perfect behavior?  Was everyone in the class bound to live out the remainder of their lives in a Celestial manner?  Did no one ever yell or argue in that class?  Did no one ever lie?  Did everyone willingly share their toys?  Or was the class similar to any other kindergarten class where kids have different levels of obedience?  Most likely the latter.

Why are a portion of us exempted from the consequence of sin solely because of a premature death?  And how does it make sense that these children are automatically awarded Celestial glory even if they have never accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior?

 

 

 

[pam]

https://askgramps.org/die-8-get-free-ride-celestial-kingdom/

[zil]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

This is because sin is not possible to commit until a child reaches age 8...

I submit this isn't the reason. Haven't read ask gramps answer yet.

[Sunday21]

There are many things about salvation that we do not understand. If this situation truly disturbs you, pray for understanding. Try not to obsess about this issue.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Sunday21

[pam]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

 

A kindergarten class of 5-year-olds rides the bus home one day.  During the ride, a tire blows out and the bus driver loses control.  The bus veers off a bridge resulting in the tragic deaths of everyone aboard.   How would the teacher of this class describe her class?  Were all these children of perfect behavior?  Was everyone in the class bound to live out the remainder of their lives in a Celestial manner?  Did no one ever yell or argue in that class?  Did no one ever lie?  Did everyone willingly share their toys?  Or was the class similar to any other kindergarten class where kids have different levels of obedience?  Most likely the latter.

 

According to Mormon  Doctrine these 5 year olds were not accountable.  They could not have sinned.  Yes children misbehave.  That is part of the learning process of growing up.  Children express their feelings more outwardly than adults do (in most cases).  That's how they deal with things until they have learned how to handle situations better growing up.  It also seems that you are holding these children to a higher standard than adults.  Adults lie at times, adults yell and argue.  Adults sometimes don't want to share.  Does that keep them out of the Celestial Kingdom?  That's why we have repentance once we've taken on the covenant of baptism.  

[zil]

Gramps nailed it. 

[pam]

Just now, zil said:

Gramps nailed it. 

That gramps is one amazing dude.

[Sunday21]

I wish Askgramps existed when I joined the church! 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I wish Askgramps existed when I joined the church! 

So do I

[Mike]

@clbent04 Personally I'm not satisfied with the so-called answer from "ask gramps".  I wonder if you are satisfied. In any event I feel that for my own part I have little choice but to try to follow Psalm 46:10

 

[Sunday21]

10Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

psalm 46:10

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Mike said:

@clbent04 Personally I'm not satisfied with the so-called answer from "ask gramps".  I wonder if you are satisfied. In any event I feel that for my own part I have little choice but to try to follow Psalm 46:10

Well, I found that the answer meandered a bit.  But the real answer was buried in there.

The part that addresses the OP is that even though children have differing levels of obedience and "good behavior", they are not considered "sinning" because they don't know any better.  Their disobedience is not willful, but rather a part of the learning process.

Mosiah 3:16

Moroni 8:8

[clbent04]

I read the Gramps post. In short, he supports the answer given by modern day prophets and apostles while quoting Doctine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.  He says it is fair for children who die before age 8 to receive Celestial glory because it was predesigned that way.  They proved themselves worthy of the Celestial Kingdom in the premortal life, and no further testing is necessary. They are of exceptional caliber who simply deserve the Celestial Kingdom, and there is nothing unfair about someone obtaining something they deserve.

Yet this still doesn't make sense to me.  It is HIGHLY probable that out of the entire group of children who die before reaching 8 years old in this life, that had they all been given the opportunity to live out their lives, there would undoubtedly be some who would turn out to be deserving of the Terrestial and Telesstial Kindgoms.

i know this goes against what Bruce R McKonkie said of our stations here in life being predesigned, but did not Elder mcKonkie also suggest that people of African American descent were born with black skin in this life because they didn't prove themselves in the premortal life as well as those born with white skin. And wasn't this theory of predesign later debunked by the Church? 

 

 

[zil]

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Yet this still doesn't make sense to me.  It is HIGHLY probable that out of the entire group of children who die before reaching 8 years old in this life, that had they all been given the opportunity to live out their lives, there would undoubtedly be some who would turn out to be deserving of the Terrestial and Telesstial Kindgoms.

a) Do you realize that this reads like you saying that you know better than God?  I for one have no problem with the idea that God really is omniscient and knew exactly what everyone would do, and all the consequences that would have, and arranged everything to proceed in such a way that each of us gets the experiences we need.  I'm also confident that this is more by allowing things to happen than by causing or forcing things to happen.

b) You cannot use the people who did need to experience more of mortality to calculate the probable behavior of those who did not need to experience more of mortality - that is highly irrational.

[Mike]

30 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 ...The part that addresses the OP is that even though children have differing levels of obedience and "good behavior", they are not considered "sinning" because they don't know any better.  Their disobedience is not willful, but rather a part of the learning process. ...

Personally, my reasons for wondering about the doctrine were never related to whether little children can sin, or not. It just always lead my mind down strange paths and rabbit holes.

 

[Mike]

18 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Yet this still doesn't make sense to me.  It is HIGHLY probable that out of the entire group of children who die before reaching 8 years old in this life, that had they all been given the opportunity to live out their lives, there would undoubtedly be some who would turn out to be deserving of the Terrestial and Telesstial Kindgoms.

I think I understand what you're saying here. (And if it matters, I don't think that you saying so means that you are questioning God.) 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think I understand what you're saying here. (And if it matters, I don't think that you saying so means that you are questioning God.) 

He's not questioning God, just LDS doctrine.  He's not LDS.  At least, he doesn't seem to be.

[Mike]

Just now, Carborendum said:

He's not questioning God, just LDS doctrine.  He's not LDS.  At least, he doesn't seem to be.

Oh, I don't know. But does it matter? Even LDS question doctrine from time-to-time. And frankly many of us do even question God  from time-to-time. It's all part of the way the world goes around...but I suppose that's fodder for a different thread.

 

[clbent04]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

a) Do you realize that this reads like you saying that you know better than God?  I for one have no problem with the idea that God really is omniscient and knew exactly what everyone would do, and all the consequences that would have, and arranged everything to proceed in such a way that each of us gets the experiences we need.  I'm also confident that this is more by allowing things to happen than by causing or forcing things to happen.

b) You cannot use the people who did need to experience more of mortality to calculate the probable behavior of those who did not need to experience more of mortality - that is highly irrational.

@zil I agree. You can't really talk statistics when you're talking about a God of miracles.  More than talking statistics though, I'm talking about living in the real world, where I see the majority of people following less than righteous lives. I see the wicked tendencies of man affecting all of us.  The majority of people who live on this Earth long enough will be pulled down by these wicked tendencies.  And to think that all the children who die before reaching 8 years old aren't subjected to this mortal test and any other test is hard for me to comprehend.

The Bible says there will be very few who make it to the Celestial Kingdom.  And how many children have died before reaching 8 years old?  100 million?  1 billion?  It's a huge number whatever it is.  I used the kindergarten class in my original post to break it down on a more simple, comprehensibly level. Can we not discern the temperament and level of obedience a child will have in this life by the time they are 8 years old?  Even though a child's disobedience does not translate into committing a sin, you can gauge a general trajectory path for a lot of kids. Sure kids continue to develop and we are continually surprised who they may turn out to be, and their early behaviors are not always indicative of how they will live out the remainder of their lives, but for a lot of kids you know early on who will be the stubborn ones, the easy to raise, the more difficult, the sharing, the selfish, and so forth.

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

 ... but for a lot of kids you know early on who will be the stubborn ones, the easy to raise, the more difficult, the sharing, the selfish, and so forth.

Well, if that's the case for us puny humans (and I suppose it is) then how much more must it be the case for God to know who will do what, and so on. Don't you think so, too?

 

[Just_A_Guy]

56 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I know this goes against what Bruce R McKonkie said of our stations here in life being predesigned, but did not Elder mcKonkie also suggest that people of African American descent were born with black skin in this life because they didn't prove themselves in the premortal life as well as those born with white skin. And wasn't this theory of predesign later debunked by the Church? 

Mormonism has not debunked the notion of foreordination/election; except that it has renounced foreordination/election as a basis for racial discrimination post-1978 and pleads agnosticism for any role it may have played pre-1978.  McConkie (not "McKonkie") is also on record as saying the sky is blue.  Should we throw that statement out, too?

The notion that the circumstances into which we are born are entirely random, is utterly foreign to Mormonism.  Rather we belong to a religion rife with suggestions that, to an almost insanely detailed degree, God places each of us into the circumstances wherein as eternal beings we could play particular roles and have the best-possible opportunities to foster the type of growth that we, individually, need. 

9 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

The Bible says there will be very few who make it to the Celestial Kingdom.  

I don't think this is accurate.  The Bible (and other LDS scripture) refers to God surrounded by numberless concourses of heavenly beings.  Where do they all come from?

[CV75]

14 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The Church says that the highest level of salvation, Celestial glory, is automatically awarded to young children who die before they reach 8 years old.  This is because sin is not possible to commit until a child reaches age 8, which is the declared age of accountability.

While this is a merciful doctrine which surely comforts parents who sadly have had to deal with the loss of a young child, is it logical to how we generally understand obtaining Celestial glory?

Should dying at a young age in itself be the reason why Celestial glory is awarded?  Is not faith in Jesus Christ prerequisite to obtaining salvation?   Many children who die before 8 years old are not even capable of comprehending the concept of Jesus Christ as a Savior to mankind.

Some say that these children of premature deaths are special, that each and every one is of Celestial caliber.  If they had been able to live out their lives they would have unquestionably succeeded in living Christlike lives worthy to return to God.

The predicament of being able to logically accept this thinking can be related to the school bus example:

A kindergarten class of 5-year-olds rides the bus home one day.  During the ride, a tire blows out and the bus driver loses control.  The bus veers off a bridge resulting in the tragic deaths of everyone aboard.   How would the teacher of this class describe her class?  Were all these children of perfect behavior?  Was everyone in the class bound to live out the remainder of their lives in a Celestial manner?  Did no one ever yell or argue in that class?  Did no one ever lie?  Did everyone willingly share their toys?  Or was the class similar to any other kindergarten class where kids have different levels of obedience?  Most likely the latter.

Why are a portion of us exempted from the consequence of sin solely because of a premature death?  And how does it make sense that these children are automatically awarded Celestial glory even if they have never accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior?

I think it possible that the Lord allows no unaccountable person to die that has not already proven himself worthy not only of celestial, but of exalted life. The others He miraculously spares to live to accountability. Those responsible for innocent blood or innocents’ deaths that were prevented by God are judged according to their own level of accountability.

Now I’ll read what Gramps has to say.

Edited: I think I was a bit more succinct.

Edited August 5, 2017 by CV75

[CV75]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

I read the Gramps post. In short, he supports the answer given by modern day prophets and apostles while quoting Doctine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.  He says it is fair for children who die before age 8 to receive Celestial glory because it was predesigned that way.  They proved themselves worthy of the Celestial Kingdom in the premortal life, and no further testing is necessary. They are of exceptional caliber who simply deserve the Celestial Kingdom, and there is nothing unfair about someone obtaining something they deserve.

Yet this still doesn't make sense to me.  It is HIGHLY probable that out of the entire group of children who die before reaching 8 years old in this life, that had they all been given the opportunity to live out their lives, there would undoubtedly be some who would turn out to be deserving of the Terrestial and Telesstial Kindgoms.

i know this goes against what Bruce R McKonkie said of our stations here in life being predesigned, but did not Elder mcKonkie also suggest that people of African American descent were born with black skin in this life because they didn't prove themselves in the premortal life as well as those born with white skin. And wasn't this theory of predesign later debunked by the Church?

To me this is evidence as to why Elder McConkie eventually said the doctrine of pre-existant valiance in connection with race and priesthood was wrong. I think all who come to earth are by design prepared for exaltation, no matter their race, and God knows all the parameters we require to prove ourselves (Acts 17:26, 27: "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us…). The debunking was in connection to race, not worthiness for exaltation.

[clbent04]

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The Bible says there will be very few who make it to the Celestial Kingdom.  

 

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don't think this is accurate.  The Bible (and other LDS scripture) refers to God surrounded by numberless concourses of heavenly beings.  Where do they all come from?

@Just_A_Guy how else do you interpret Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."  So at least less than half of us, right?

I'm not saying numberless concourses of heavenly beings won't be surrounding God, I'm just saying the majority of us under God's realm will not make it back to live with him in the Celestial Kingdom per Matthew 7:14.  Since there are very few who will be going to Outer Darkness, and not a high percentage of us who are murderers and rapists (Telestial Kindgom - not that all murderers and rapists can't be forgiven and possibly qualify for a higher kingdom), I think most of us will be in the Terrestrial Kingdom.

[clbent04]

@Just_A_Guy Matthew 7:14 is actually another topic I wanted to address to see want the general understanding is. I'll address in another post so this thread won't start veering off subject too much