God was once a man?!

[prisonchaplain]

@Traveler When two doctrines seem at odds, most traditional Christians will investigate it to varying degrees. Then, if it's not resolved, because we trust God, will usually put it on the back burner, so to speak. A current example that many struggle with is God's love vs. eternal hell. Previous generations did not struggle with that--but ours does. I've not met a minister yet that relishes in describing hell. We know God is just, but the idea of the eternity of hell is tough. Yet, I trust God's justice,mercy, grace--and truly believe that those who go there need to do so. Still, I don't have to like it.

[prisonchaplain]

  On 8/23/2017 at 6:24 PM, Carborendum said:

Well, that's interesting.  But my question was not about our rewards, but rather, God's purpose in making us or glorifying us.

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This reminds me of the essay exam I did once:  C+ -- Great writing--well thought-out response. You didn't answer the question, however.  Hey--I still got a 78.

So, you want to know about God's purpose, not our end condition?  How about Colassians 1:16 -

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

¹⁸ And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

¹⁹ For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

²⁰ And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

²¹ And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

²² In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

 

Bottom line: To reconcile us to God and build into us holiness.

[prisonchaplain]

  On 8/23/2017 at 6:24 PM, anatess2 said:

Which means... God created them to condemn them for the sake of others achieving heaven.

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This is the loggerhead. LDS hold God accountable for our actions, because He created us in totality. The rest of us don't see it that way. We believe God created us with sufficient free will to be accountable for our own sins.

[Rob Osborn]

It is contrary to Gods will to create a child for hell.

[Guest]

  On 8/23/2017 at 6:31 PM, prisonchaplain said:

This reminds me of the essay exam I did once:  C+ -- Great writing--well thought-out response. You didn't answer the question, however.  Hey--I still got a 78.

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I was once given a zero on my French exam because I mixed up which were the direct object pronoun and which were the indirect object pronouns.  So, the "zero" actually told me that I would have gotten a 100% had I not mixed them up.  It didn't make me feel much better.

So, if that doesn't make you feel better, I understand.

  On 8/23/2017 at 6:31 PM, prisonchaplain said:

Bottom line: To reconcile us to God and build into us holiness.

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You seem to be giving me the same answer a Lutheran friend once gave me.  And he balked at my response.  So, I want you to know that I'm asking the following not to make an argument, but to possibly clarify.

This purpose presupposes we were there in the first place to be reconciled at all.  But go back a step (or try to explain what I'm missing) where we don't exist at all.  He gets an idea into His head to create us.  Why did He do that?

I recognize that we have to ignore for a moment that God always knows all things and there is no moment when He says,"Hey, I just thought of something."  But I need it broken down for my mortal and Mormon mind here.  Why?

BTW, it was a well thought out response.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Guest

[anatess2]

  On 8/23/2017 at 6:35 PM, prisonchaplain said:

This is the loggerhead. LDS hold God accountable for our actions, because He created us in totality. The rest of us don't see it that way. We believe God created us with sufficient free will to be accountable for our own sins.

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Not a loggerhead.  Let's just forget about LDS for a moment.  Yes, God created us with free will to be accountable for our sins.  Free Will is a gift - supposed to be a really awesome gift.  Yet, it is THIS GIFT that marks people for condemnation.  Therefore, when God gave his creation that gift of free will, he willingly created people KNOWING that some will be condemned.  So yes, hell is a choice.  God made that possible.

[person0]

If there was ever a moment when nothing existed except for God, and even at that point God had 100% knowledge of all events for all eternity, then I think it would follow that God Himself does not have real agency, but merely acts out what He has always known He was going to do from the beginning.  This would basically reduce God to being a self-existing program that controls the universe.  That's not something I could believe.

[person0]

Also applicable, either something can come from nothing, or it can't, but not both.  Observe the following information from a popular Christian online ministry:

  Quote

Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. . .
We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God.
(Who Created God?) emphasis added

The term "creation ex nihilo" refers to God creating everything from nothing. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Prior to that moment there was nothing.
(What does Creation "ex nihilo" mean?) emphasis added

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They argue that something can not come from nothing, but then they also argue that something actually can come from nothing.  In my experience, this is a consistent contradiction within mainstream Christianity.  I know we mortals still lack a lot of information, but from what we do have, the only thing that seems logical to me is to believe there is no beginning nor end to all forms of intelligent existence and/or matter, only to the state in which they exist at any given moment throughout eternity.

  Quote

Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity, find out the generation where Gods began to be?
(If You Could Hie to Kolob)

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[Guest]

  On 8/23/2017 at 8:57 PM, person0 said:

If there was ever a moment when nothing existed except for God, and even at that point God had 100% knowledge of all events for all eternity, then I think it would follow that God Himself does not have real agency, but merely acts out what He has always known He was going to do from the beginning.  This would basically reduce God to being a self-existing program that controls the universe.  That's not something I could believe.

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Now, there is where you're falling into the same trap as predestinationists.  That is faulty logic.

[Traveler]

  On 8/23/2017 at 7:11 PM, anatess2 said:

Not a loggerhead.  Let's just forget about LDS for a moment.  Yes, God created us with free will to be accountable for our sins.  Free Will is a gift - supposed to be a really awesome gift.  Yet, it is THIS GIFT that marks people for condemnation.  Therefore, when God gave his creation that gift of free will, he willingly created people KNOWING that some will be condemned.  So yes, hell is a choice.  God made that possible.

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Two points of doctrine I find in complete and obvious flaw are:

First. Mortal man has free will or agency

Second.  G-d is no respecter of persons.

I do not see how it can be considered that G-d has granted man free will (agency) when G-d allows man to be lied to by an intelligent being with superior knowledge compared to man’s.   Then if agency or free will is truly a gift – how is it just that G-d gives advantage to some with superior agency and will as well as circumstance.  I find it most ironic that those that claim these two point above to be unflawed parts of G-d’s plan also consider themselves safely saved and redeemed by Christ and that those that disagree (heretics) are in grave danger of hell fire.  In essence if you see the doctrinal flaw – you are damned.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

  On 8/23/2017 at 9:24 PM, Carborendum said:

Now, there is where you're falling into the same trap as predestinationists.  That is faulty logic.

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Just wondering what you think – would it be predestination if there was an existence before mortality where we, using our agency, completely planned our mortal existence – in essence that we knew as well as G-d what our choices would be.  But then there was another time (spirit world) where once again agency would be restored and our lot in eternity is no longer determined so that we could stand at the final judgment and complete our free will or agency?  Just speculating.

 

The Traveler

[person0]

  On 8/23/2017 at 9:24 PM, Carborendum said:

Now, there is where you're falling into the same trap as predestinationists.  That is faulty logic.

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My statement was only in the context of the ex-nihilo creation of everything in existence except for God Himself.  It would not apply to the LDS view of creation/existence.  I am not sure what you see as being the fault in this context, but if you still feel there is one, please elaborate.

[prisonchaplain]

  On 8/23/2017 at 7:11 PM, anatess2 said:

So yes, hell is a choice.  God made that possible.

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Was it worth it? Was it right for God to do so?  Do we even dare question Him?  I don't.

[anatess2]

  On 8/24/2017 at 4:20 AM, prisonchaplain said:

Was it worth it? Was it right for God to do so?  Do we even dare question Him?  I don't.

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Of course I would question Him!  That's the point of existence.  To understand God that we may be Gods.

[prisonchaplain]

  On 8/23/2017 at 6:43 PM, Rob Osborn said:

It is contrary to Gods will to create a child for hell.

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But is it contrary that God allows adults (above the age of accountability) to choose hell?

[prisonchaplain]

  On 8/23/2017 at 8:57 PM, person0 said:

If there was ever a moment when nothing existed except for God, and even at that point God had 100% knowledge of all events for all eternity, then I think it would follow that God Himself does not have real agency, but merely acts out what He has always known He was going to do from the beginning.  This would basically reduce God to being a self-existing program that controls the universe.  That's not something I could believe.

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It sounds like you are questioning the logic of a all-knowing-powerful-present God.

[prisonchaplain]

  On 8/24/2017 at 4:21 AM, anatess2 said:

Of course I would question Him!  That's the point of existence.  To understand God that we may be Gods.

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I might inquire of the LORD, but I would not challenge his justice or morals.

[anatess2]

  On 8/24/2017 at 4:26 AM, prisonchaplain said:

I might inquire of the LORD, but I would not challenge his justice or morals.

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Yes.  But I do challenge a Church's teaching.  Which is why I was a very devout Catholic, leaving those questions to faith until they got answered.

[Rob Osborn]

  On 8/24/2017 at 4:21 AM, prisonchaplain said:

But is it contrary that God allows adults (above the age of accountability) to choose hell?

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Not at all. If some desire to sin and not follow rules then so be it. The law stands.

[person0]

  On 8/24/2017 at 4:24 AM, prisonchaplain said:

It sounds like you are questioning the logic of a all-knowing-powerful-present God.

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I think we can agree on much, but my point would be more like this:

• God is omniscient  ✔
• God is omnipotent  ✔
• God is omnipresent (for LDS - via the Holy Spirit)  ✔
• God is benevolent  ✔
• God allows for the agency ('free will') of mankind  ✔
• For at least some, there is or will be a permanent state of abode which we can call 'Hell'  ✔
• God created everything in existence ex-nihilo, and all things are created after His own design  ✖

The final doctrine in that list is logically incompatible with the combination of those listed previous, unless one believes in absolute determinism.  However, if one believes in absolute determinism, it would also be incompatible with the combination of the other doctrines.

You may disagree with what I have presented, although I currently don't see any logical flaw, but I wanted to clarify what was actually being questioned.

[Guest]

@prisonchaplain,

The reason ex nihilo and pre-existence are different, lie in the "responsibility" and overall philosophy of why we were created in the first place.

MORMONS:

God came upon us and saw that we had intelligence.  It was His duty to help us grow.  This meant bringing us through spirit life and into mortal life.

Through spirit life, we have an upbringing.  Through mortal life, we have a test and additional growth.  Throughout, God gave us exactly what we would need to grow and learn as much as possible.

Some were more intelligent (had more light) than others.  Therefore, they would learn more in both lives and grow more through the trials of life.

Others were less intelligent (had less light).  These would not learn as well.  And they would even diminish through trials.

Such tests were as much as we could handle because that is what requires us to grow.  Some can only handle so much of a trial.  So, we could only grow so much.

All throughout, God did everything He could to give each of us as much as we could possibly get, to learn as much as we could possibly learn, to grow as much as we could possibly grow.  That possibility was due to our original state of pre-existence as intelligences.  He had no responsibility in that condition.  That was all us.

God only provided us the greatest university in which to study.  Some flunked out to outer darkness.  Some get associates degrees and are perfectly happy.  Others get bachelor's degrees, others graduate degrees.  And each has achieves everything they could possibly achieve.

God fulfilled his responsibility by giving us all the resources to grow and learn.  We fulfill our responsibility to achieve all we could achieve, given those resources.

Because we were uncreated beings, God does not take responsibility for the choices we made because it was all our choice.

As created beings, the responsibility for our choices lies in the creator of our beings that made those choices.

[zil]

  On 8/24/2017 at 2:54 PM, person0 said:

The final doctrine in that list is logically incompatible with the combination of those listed previous, unless one believes in absolute determinism.  However, if one believes in absolute determinism, it would also be incompatible with the combination of the other doctrines.

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I wish I could believe in absolute determinism.  Then I could say, "Excuse me, but God's making me go get some chocolate ice cream now."  And I wouldn't feel at all guilty about any of it.

[Guest]

  On 8/24/2017 at 3:47 PM, zil said:

I wish I could believe in absolute determinism.  Then I could say, "Excuse me, but God's making me go get some chocolate ice cream now."  And I wouldn't feel at all guilty about any of it.

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But it is perfectly acceptable to say "The devil made me do it."

[zil]

  On 8/24/2017 at 3:58 PM, Carborendum said:

But it is perfectly acceptable to say "The devil made me do it."

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Yeah, but I think I'd feel better about it if I could say with conviction that God made me do it.

[Guest]

  On 8/24/2017 at 4:00 PM, zil said:

Yeah, but I think I'd feel better about it if I could say with conviction that God made me do it.

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Sometimes He does.  Not with force or compulsion, but...

I had a prompting to put together a month of food storage for my home teaching family.  So, I took some from my storage and organized it.  I started carrying it to the car and my wife asked,"What are you doing?"

"I'm taking some food storage to my home teaching family."

"Why?"

"Because... I need to."

"Ok."