Old Testament Accounts that I do not believe happened

[Sunday21]

Further to discussions of some Old Testament prophet/king supposedly offering his daughter as a burnt offering, other Old Testament stories that are likely fables:

some prophet being asked to takes as a wife an adulteress, second wife a prostitute

Jonah and the ? 

snake in the garden of Eden. 

Job. God and Satan have a bet about Job. No way!

Slaughter of the Innnocents. Really? No record of this occurring. Even for the nasty ancient world, if this happened, I think there would be many retellings and thus a record.

Noah's flood covered the whole world. No way. Happened on a small scale. So why did Noah's daughter feel constrained to take unusual steps thinking they were the only people left?

The good brother buys the birthright of the bad brother for a bowl of soup. Big parts of the story missing here!

Some stories are fables. Some are missing a lot of detail.

Feel free to attack!

 

 

 

 

[Vort]

49 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

So why did Noah's daughter feel constrained to take unusual steps thinking they were the only people left?

I believe you're mixing up the story of Ham seeing his father Noah's nakedness when Noah was drunk with Lot's daughters taking advantage of his drunkenness to get pregnant by him and bear him sons.

[JohnsonJones]

I, on the otherhand am a literalist.  I take the entirety of the scriptures as having happened.  They can double as morality stories, and explanations, but overall, that what is written is what occurred.

We, as westerners can have problems with our current morality views vs. what happened in the Bible, but at times it is because we do not comprehend the mind of the Lord.

A prime example of that is slavery.  In our society, we view it as evil, totally and completely.

However, in the Bible, it is not.

There are condemnations upon slave owners that treat their slaves badly (so, all those stories of slaves being ill treated in the South...well...as per the bible those owners could have some great difficulties regarding justifying that in a biblical context).

However, in ancient society, a slave could be more powerful than a freeman.  A prime example, Joseph was always a slave, even when he was the second most powerful man in Egypt besides Pharaoh himself. 

We see this in the ancient world all the way up to the Ottoman Empire.  They also had slaves, normally as the military (and taking a slant from the Mamluks who also I believe were slaves and considered the most powerful force in the world at the time of their existence...they were the ones who turned back the invading hordes from Asia of all things at the time if I recall correctly).  People would try to give up their children as slaves into that force they were so powerful in the Ottoman empire.  Their heads of the order which were also slaves could do almost whatever they wanted to the free men without repercussions.

This type of morality however, differs from what we, as the West, now understand it.  Hence, due to separation of time and culture, much of what may have been easily understood in the morals of the Ancient Israelites (or the Jews in the New Testament times) are not easily understood by us today.

Still, there is no problem in having difficulties with the Bible either.  As long as one believes in the Lord and his atonement, it is to each individual.  We KNOW that parts of the Bible are inaccurate (even I, as a literalist know this) from an LDS viewpoint, which is why we have the 8th article of faith.

[Fether]

Just a thought on the story of Jonah... it never really says he was alive while in the whale. God may have just brought him back to life after he washed up on the shore 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Fether

[Sunday21]

16 minutes ago, Fether said:

Just a thought a thought on the story of Jonah... it never really says he was alive while in the whale. God may have just brought him back to life after he washed up on the shore 

Never thought of that!

[Sunday21]

Maybe this is the answer to the lack of proof with respect to the slaughter of the innocents

Brown and others argue that, based on Bethlehem's estimated population of 1,000 at the time, the largest number of infants that could have been killed would have been about twenty,^[15][16] and R. T. France, addressing the story's absence in Antiquities of the Jews, argues that "the murder of a few infants in a small village [is] not on a scale to match the more spectacular assassinations recorded by Josephus".^[1

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

[Fether]

And maybe the situation with Job and the dialogue between God and the Devil was just the scribe's way of reconciling why Job was facing so many trials

just thoughts! I do agree though, I'm not sure what all is literal and what isnt

Edited September 15, 2017 by Fether

[Midwest LDS]

I believe Job is the story of a real man. Otherwise, I don't believe the Lord would have used it in D and C 121:10 when talking to Joseph Smith about the blessings he still has when he is in Liberty Jail. It would be rather unfair of the Lord to compare Joseph's suffering to a fictional man, and so I believe the story is more or less true. I do believe it is a very metaphorical way of discussing an event (Satan and God don't make wagers with each other) which fits the Jews ancient eastern thought processes a lot more than our literal 21st century ones. And while I believe the other stories as well, I think our discomfort with some of the stories can be helped by remembering these 3 things.

1. I already mentioned this earlier but cultural differences with the ancient Israelites make it exceedingly difficult for us to understand some of their teaching methods. 

2. We hold it as an article of faith that the Bible is correct as far as it is translated correctly. There are places where large chunks of the story are missing or have been misinterpreted and copied incorrectly for generations. This would lead to obvious confusion. The Lord told us when the Bible came forth from the Jews it was clear and perfect (1 Nephi 13:23-26) but parts of it have been corrupted by evil and designing men.

3. I figure if God can make the universe from formless matter he can make a donkey talk, or keep a guy alive in a great fish, or cause the Earth to stand still☺.

Interesting topic discussion.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[Blueskye2]

9 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Further to discussions of some Old Testament prophet/king supposedly offering his daughter as a burnt offering, other Old Testament stories that are likely fables:

some prophet being asked to takes as a wife an adulteress, second wife a prostitute

Jonah and the ? 

snake in the garden of Eden. 

Job. God and Satan have a bet about Job. No way!

Slaughter of the Innnocents. Really? No record of this occurring. Even for the nasty ancient world, if this happened, I think there would be many retellings and thus a record.

Noah's flood covered the whole world. No way. Happened on a small scale. So why did Noah's daughter feel constrained to take unusual steps thinking they were the only people left?

The good brother buys the birthright of the bad brother for a bowl of soup. Big parts of the story missing here!

Some stories are fables. Some are missing a lot of detail.

Feel free to attack!

 

 

 

 

I think so too. Some are myths, in the usage of the word, as meant to convey important truths. Anagogical, allegorical and moral, not entirely literal. Adam and Eve as an example conveys the important truths that God is our creator, who was disobeyed by our first parents, which had consequences. I view the snake and the supernatural plants and fruits as allegory.  There is also heaps of anagogy, particularly from a Christian POV (and Catholic Eucharist). 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Blueskye2

[person0]

9 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Further to discussions of some Old Testament prophet/king supposedly offering his daughter as a burnt offering, other Old Testament stories that are likely fables:

1) some prophet being asked to takes as a wife an adulteress, second wife a prostitute

2) Jonah and the ? 

3) snake in the garden of Eden. 

4) Job. God and Satan have a bet about Job. No way!

5) Slaughter of the Innnocents. Really? No record of this occurring. Even for the nasty ancient world, if this happened, I think there would be many retellings and thus a record.

6) Noah's flood covered the whole world. No way. Happened on a small scale. So why did Noah's daughter feel constrained to take unusual steps thinking they were the only people left?

7) The good brother buys the birthright of the bad brother for a bowl of soup. Big parts of the story missing here!

Some stories are fables. Some are missing a lot of detail.

Feel free to attack!

1) True story.  Used as a mechanism of instruction to Israel.

2) True story.  @Fether's idea seems plausible enough.  I'll leave it at that.

3) Doesn't matter if it's true or not, but if the Holy Spirit can come in the sign of the dove, I would assume the devil could come in the sign of a serpent.

4) True:  It is likely a work of literacy added on top of a true story where the role of God/Satan was the addition, but where Job was a real person and the events depicted in His life were real:

Quote

The greatness of the book of Job as literature, however, is a stumbling block for some biblical scholars, who believe it is fiction 2 and that Job was not an actual individual. 3 However, substantial evidence exists to the contrary. A conservative scholar, M. J. Unger, states, “There is no concrete reason for denying that Job was a real character or for maintaining that the events recorded are not historical.” 4

Scriptures confirm the fact that Job was an actual man by listing him among the prophets. For example, the three great men the Lord mentions to Ezekiel are Noah, Daniel, and Job. (See Ezek. 14:14, 20.) James also refers to Job. (See James 5:11.) Latter-day scriptural confirmation of Job’s existence is Doctrine and Covenants 121:10 [D&C 121:10], where the Lord refers to Job in answer to a plea of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

(Job the Man and His Message)

5) True event.  Joseph and Mary Fled to Egypt for this reason.  Do you really think HF would be giving us false details about the life of His only begotten through the Apostles/Prophets?

6) True.  The earth is a living entity.  The flood was the baptism of the earth.

7) Esau likely had no intention of keeping that agreement.  Jacob had no intention of forcing him to keep it.  Jacob's mother required him to follow through with the plan.  Not because of the agreement over soup, but because Jacob was the more righteous and more capable agent of the birthright.

Edited September 15, 2017 by person0