Not earned, its a gift

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

There's no confusion here.  It's really just about semantics and attitude.

I'll repeat my rope analogy.  If you are stuck in a pit, and someone throws a rope to you, what saved you?  And what was earned?

The man who threw you the rope saved you.  You don't thank the rope.  You don't pat yourself on the back for climbing up the rope.  You're supposed to be grateful that the man was around and had a rope to send to you.  And you gratefully grabbed the rope and started climbing.

Because the rope is there for us, and the man holding the rope is there for us, what should we have to worry about?  We need to grab the rope and then we need to climb up the rope.  That is why we so often emphasize the "work" we have to do.  The rest has been provided to us through hearing the word, having faith, performing ordinances, and making covenants (grabbing the rope).  Now we just need to KEEP those covenants (climb the rope).

Who in his right mind would say we "earned our way out of the pit" by climbing up the rope?

I agree, though I think it is more apt that we knew how to tie a bowline and the man throwing the rope to us was far stronger than anything we could imagine.  We didn't have to even climb up the rope, just remember the things we were taught (how to tie the bowline) and apply it, the man actually did far more than just toss us the rope, he hauled us up once we got situated on the rope itself.  Basically, he did all the work, what we did was minimal.

[wenglund]

On 10/22/2017 at 6:59 PM, priesthoodpower said:

Elder Holland said that perfection is received as a gift from heaven...."we wont earn it", but then later in his talk he contradicts himself by saying "if we persevere, somewhere in eternity our refinement will be finish and complete, which is the new testament meaning of perfection".

https://youtu.be/KyL3beFoswg?t=1m54s

So what started off as, we cant earn perfection because its a free gift, turned into the free gift that is earned if we work and stay the course (persevere). Im confused.

I believe the resolution is found in Alma 32:27-43. If I plant a seed which then grows up to perfection and becomes a fruit-bearing tree, I cannot logically say that I earned that perfection, even though attainment of that perfection (i.e. fruit) requires nurturing on my part.

We each have within us the seed of godliness. Perfection consist of becoming a fruit-bearing tree of life, even as our Heavenly Father, or as Paul describes it: attaining the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Such perfection cannot logically be described as "earned," though it does require nurturing on our part.

More to the point, since, as Elder Nelson points out, salvation is an individual matter, whereas exaltation is a family matter, when parents exercise their procreative powers, and conceive and raise their children, hopefully to be an eternal family, they haven't earned the children, or the mature adults they have or may become, though considerable effort is required on their part.

It is the difference between acquiring things (such as knowledge and education), which, in a sense, can be earned, versus becoming something, which isn't earned, but requires human effort nevertheless.

This is, in part, why, in the process of revealing a mystery of the kingdom,  Elder Oaks has said:

"Attaining what the Apostle Paul described as “the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13) requires far more than acquiring knowledge. It is not even enough for us to be convinced of the gospel; we must act and think so that we are converted by it. In contrast to the institutions of the world, which teach us to know something, the plan of salvation and the gospel of Jesus Christ challenge us to become something." (see HERE)

Does this help?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 27, 2017 by wenglund

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[Guest]

On 10/27/2017 at 1:24 PM, JohnsonJones said:

I agree, though I think it is more apt that we knew how to tie a bowline and the man throwing the rope to us was far stronger than anything we could imagine.  We didn't have to even climb up the rope, just remember the things we were taught (how to tie the bowline) and apply it, the man actually did far more than just toss us the rope, he hauled us up once we got situated on the rope itself.  Basically, he did all the work, what we did was minimal.

You're right.  We disagree.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Not sure if this is a good analogy. I been going to the gym the past 3 months and I can now do two full pull-ups, climbing a rope even ten feet tall is impossible for me and im sure 99% of the population, if living the Gospel spiritually (following covenants and commandments)  is comparable to physically climbing up a rope, well then that is very hard. If you say that I am on the right path of training and if I am persistent in my workouts in about 2 years i will be strong enough to climb ten feet up a rope, well then that is a lot of hard work, thus earning my way out of the pit with the free gift (the rope) that the Savior has thrown down to me.

I would think more of what JohnJ said that we just need to hold on to the rope and Jesus pulls us out or even better Jesus built a set of stairs and all we need to do is walk up and out and when even walking up those stairs becomes difficult (i.e. life trials) Jesus comes down and helps us up the stairs as long as we continue to try.

I, too would be unable to climb the rope.  But it is not so much that we are giving up and having the Savior lift us up with no effort on our part.  Instead, we ask Him to lend us HIS strength, so that we can climb the rope.  Again, we're not earning it.  It is His strength that gets us up there.

The thing is that it is one thing to say that He lends us His strength to accomplish this otherwise impossible feat.  It is quite another to simply say "I'm just a worm without the ability to do this, so I just don't need to be concerned with it."  No, we at least need to humble ourselves (which is different than giving up because we can't do it) to the point where we're learning to depend upon the Lord.  See the subtle difference?

While both say we (by ourselves) are incapable, one is asking for the strength to overcome the obstacle.  The other is asking for the obstacle to be removed from before us.

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I, too would be unable to climb the rope.  But it is not so much that we are giving up and having the Savior lift us up with no effort on our part.  Instead, we ask Him to lend us HIS strength, so that we can climb the rope.  Again, we're not earning it.  It is His strength that gets us up there.

The thing is that it is one thing to say that He lends us His strength to accomplish this otherwise impossible feat.  It is quite another to simply say "I'm just a worm without the ability to do this, so I just don't need to be concerned with it."  No, we at least need to humble ourselves (which is different than giving up because we can't do it) to the point where we're learning to depend upon the Lord.  See the subtle difference?

While both say we (by ourselves) are incapable, one is asking for the strength to overcome the obstacle.  The other is asking for the obstacle to be removed from before us.

I am surprised, as I would have thought we agreed for the most part.  I think we still agree for the most part, just not on our story of the pit, but most likely on salvation itself I think we probably agree for the most part.

As Mormons, we believe in the principle of grace.  It is something that some forget at times, to the point that even some other churches will point to Mormons and say they believe that works saves them, not grace.  This idea of works saving us is incorrect, for we believe in the atonement as the central and essential part of our own salvation and exaltation.

Indeed, we believe in James (and alma) rather than the Koran.  As per our teachings, our works do not save us.  There is no amount of work we can do that would save us.  We could do works our entire lives, and it still would not be enough.  There is only one mighty enough to save, and that is Jesus Christ.  He alone has the power to save us from death and sin.

Even the idea of tying the bowline may be too much credit to ourselves, as we ourselves, are powerless to do anything.  We can do nothing of ourselves to attain our salvation, because we have not the power nor the strength to do so.  Everything, and I mean everything, for our salvation is done by the Lord.  Our contribution is so minimal as to be basically of no worth at all.

What we do, is to show our faith in the Lord.  It is our trust and faith in his ability to save that he asks of us.  However, as it is pointed out, faith without works is dead.  You can state you have faith, but our faith will be exhibited by works, or what we do will prove we have faith.  In otherwords, actions speak louder than mere words.

We deserve no credit in our own salvation.  Any teaching that says that we have power of any sort to effect our own salvation on our own, by ourselves, or by our own works because the Lord only took us part of the way is a false doctrine, as we rely entirely upon the Lord.  He is literally the way, the truth, and the light.  No man comes to the father, but by him.  No man has the works to save himself, for all sin and fall short.

Ephesians 2: 8-9

Quote

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

and again, 2 Nephi 2: 5-8

Quote

5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

Everytime you grab the rope, you try to climb, but you just slip that inch you tried and fall down into the pit of sin once again.  YOU CANNOT climb your way out on your own, even with the rope right there.

However, it does not mean that we do not take action.  We MUST take action, for we believe in James and others who talk about our works, but it is NOT our works that have in any degree the power to save except to show our acceptance and love for the Lord.  We cannot climb out, we need someone to SAVE us.  However, if one has faith, you will be able to see that faith by the works that we do such as repentance, and then Baptism, and other ordinances that we have been commanded of the Lord.

This is why I included the bowline on our part.  It is because we obtain the knowledge, and then we are expected to apply it, and through that application, we show our faith that we accept that rope and want to be saved.  We must show that by action on our part (the tying the knot) for us to be pulled out of the pit of sin, and even more, elevated beyond where we once were.

Uchtdorf states

Quote

Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God.26 Thinking that we can trade our good works for salvation is like buying a plane ticket and then supposing we own the airline. Or thinking that after paying rent for our home, we now hold title to the entire planet earth

And again from the same talk

Quote

However, I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.”

We are not saved “because” of all that we can do. Have any of us done all that we can do? Does God wait until we’ve expended every effort before He will intervene in our lives with His saving grace?

Many people feel discouraged because they constantly fall short. They know firsthand that “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”³² They raise their voices with Nephi in proclaiming, “My soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.”³³

I am certain Nephi knew that the Savior’s grace allows and enables us to overcome sin.³⁴ This is why Nephi labored so diligently to persuade his children and brethren “to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God.”³⁵

In fact, I believe his talk is the very essence of our belief as Mormons today.  It is not that our works are useless, I would in fact state they are necessary facets, but they are not even half as useful as people may think.  In fact, as I said, even attributing us to tying the knot maybe giving us more credit than is due.  It is possible that the it is that he has a lasso and loops it around us.  All we needed to do was to cry out to him to save us from our pit of sin, and then to not purposefully avoid the lasso or remove it from ourselves once it is in place.

This talk of President Uchtdorf's, which I must admit encapsulates a LOT of my modern thinking (and I believe it was one that impressed me greatly when I originally heard it) is found here

The Gift of Grace - By President Uchtdorf

Edited October 30, 2017 by JohnsonJones
Fixed Link to work properly and clarifications in hope that I am not misunderstood

[Just_A_Guy]

We’re getting awfully tripped up by this “free gift” language considering that the expression  “free gift” is nowhere in elder Holland’s most recent conference address.  

It’s a conditional gift, and I confess I have a difficult time seeing why this is is considered to be such a problem.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

14 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Not sure if this is a good analogy. I been going to the gym the past 3 months and I can now do two full pull-ups, climbing a rope even ten feet tall is impossible for me and im sure 99% of the population, if living the Gospel spiritually (following covenants and commandments)  is comparable to physically climbing up a rope, well then that is very hard. If you say that I am on the right path of training and if I am persistent in my workouts in about 2 years i will be strong enough to climb ten feet up a rope, well then that is a lot of hard work, thus earning my way out of the pit with the free gift (the rope) that the Savior has thrown down to me.

The problem is not the analogy, which is fine. The problem is focusing on parts of the analogy that are irrelevant to its meaning.

Suppose my son is a wrestler, and I say, "He's really a tiger out there on the mat." Then someone responds, "Scratching and biting are illegal in wrestling. Your son will be disqualified. In any case, his claws will never pass the nail check. Plus, even a small tiger will be way above his weight class. Cheater."

Dwight? Dwight Schrute?

The meaning of the analogy is clear. If you fall into a pit that is too deep to climb out of, and you're stuck there and waiting to die of thirst, starvation, or becoming a meal to animals, then you cannot save yourself. Period.

If someone then comes along with a rope and pulls you out, you didn't "earn" your way out of the pit -- even if you climbed the rope. The rope guy saved you. Period.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Vort

[Vort]

Luckily, I was able to save myself by my clever strategy of boarding the rescue boat.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

We’re getting awfully tripped up by this “free gift” language

I blame the rope.

[priesthoodpower]

.
 

Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Dismissing parts of the analogy means that you are saying all five, ten, or 100 people that fall in the pit all get saved, this sounds like the atonement of Jesus Christ which saves the entire human population from physical death (a Free Gift).

The Free Gift for perfection Elder Holland talks about refers to persevering and enduring to the end, is this referring to the part of the atonement where Jesus Christ also overcame spiritual death? ..where in order for us to use that gift we need to take upon us his name and repent?

 

Once again, the talk by President Uchtdorf (link posted above by me)  is perhaps one of the more excellent talks on the subject of Grace that we've had in the recent few years, at least it's the one that really impressed upon me how Grace is defined and plays for the LDS in regards to salvation and exaltation.  One could view the Pit parallel in several ways.  One, from the view of salvation from physical death, in which case, it is the Lord actually coming down, tying the rope around us, and then physically hauling us up himself.

The other one, still would have minimal action from the Lord.  As President Uchtdorf points out in that talk, we can do nothing to save ourselves.  We are not saved by our works, nor even because all we can do. One could even view it (my words here, not Uchtdorf's) that we are saved despite all we do to destroy our own salvation as we sin daily.  What our actions do is to show our Love for the Lord, it is a natural recourse for our faith.  Anyone who thinks that we our selves have any power to save ourselves, is ignoring the real power of the atonement.  It is akin to the Jews when they lived the Law of Moses, and though they practiced the law, the did not understand the law nor it's purpose.  They felt that it was the law of Moses that saved them, and the works that they did under that law.  In truth, the entire law pointed to the law giver, who was the real power to save.  However, in their haste to ignore the lawgiver, and to obey the law as they saw it, or do their works, they killed the lawgiver.

They did not understand that works will not save them, nor will they save us.  Works of themselves, have no power.  The Lord, on the otherhand, has all power.  He can set any standard he wants for us to be saved.  As the one who has ALL the power and ALL the ability, he decides who is saved and who is not.  We all fall short, not one of us even comes close to even succeeding in doing what he has commanded us (be ye therefore perfect).  He can save whoever he wants to save.  He does NOT need any of our actions to save anyone if he so desired, he could literally simply decide to save those who have no ordinances whatsoever if he so decided from what I understand.  He does NOT NEED our works, but we NEED his grace.  WE do not know all who he will save or exalt at the day of judgment, and it is not ours to decide.  He will choose any who the Lord judges of his own, and save and exalt those who he (the Lord) decides.   We have no decision in that process, but instead are as beggars who hope that he will judge us worthy, not just of salvation, but exaltation itself.  He is the one that decides, and has all the power to grant or not to grant these rewards.  I, as a sinner, can repent and hope to attain the great reward, even as I try as best I can, but it is on the mercy of the Lord that I rely entirely if I am to obtain not just salvation, but exaltation as well.

However, he has set things for us to do, and by doing them we show our faith and love for him.  We show that we are attempting to fulfill the things he has commanded us, even if we fall short doing them.

However, the key difference between salvation in the pit analogy, and exaltation are different as this.  In salvation, we are being hauled up with no conscious effort of ourselves overall.  In it, we are simply taken out of the pit, we are rescued from the pit that we dug ourselves into.  In exaltation, we are not only taken out of the pit, but raised to a higher station or power and glory to the one who saved us. This is far more than simply being taken out of the pit, as it is putting us in a better situation than we were before we even ended up there in the first place.

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[mordorbund]

23 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

We’re getting awfully tripped up by this “free gift” language considering that the expression  “free gift” is nowhere in elder Holland’s most recent conference address.  

It’s a conditional gift, and I confess I have a difficult time seeing why this is is considered to be such a problem.

Perhaps it's because, despite this being an LDS forum, we have let Evangelicals frame the discussion.

[priesthoodpower]

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Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[wenglund]

On 10/31/2017 at 2:49 AM, priesthoodpower said:

Im still sketchy about where perfection fits into our salvation/exaltation/eternal life.

A vessel can be made perfectly clean--i.e. the complete removal of impurities (salvation) and also be made perfectly full--i.e  filled with Godliness (exaltation). Christ remained pure in spirit throughout his life, and was thus perfectly clean. However, he also grew and developed in bodily size and godly knowledge and character, from grace to grace, and on the third day he was "perfected" (see HERE), and thereby became "perfect" (saved from physical impurity of fallen flesh and exalted) even as his Father in Heaven is perfect. (Compare the wording of Matthew 5:48 with 3 Nephi 12:48 --see also D&C 67:13 to see how the same principle may apply to us)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-