THE OTHER SHEEP


zlarry123

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3 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

I believe you inescapable intended to say, it's not what Christ said, but what He meant when He said it in the context, power, and spirit of inspiration by our heaven Father the only true God. John 17:3  Would you agree?

Larry: LDS believe Christ literally faced the Nephite people and point-blank literally said " "Ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me."  (emphasis mine).

That is the answer to your question, over and done.  There is no discussion of what Christ meant in John 17:3 are anything like that- He said it Himself, plain and simple, it's right there in scripture (3 Nephi 11:24).  Over and done, no discussion to be had.

3 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

I'm curious if you speak for all members here or did you figure it out for yourself that "WHAT LARRY SAYS DOESN'T TRUMP WHAT CHRIST SAID" (NO OFFENSE).  

I, like the other LDS people, asked Himself is these words were His and True.  And I listened to His answer through the Spirit. 

Larry, you're obviously approaching things from a sola scriptura standpoint.  While I respect your choice in that regard, I do not share it at all.  I don't rely of debating words on a page to determine Truth-- frankly I find such debates to be destructive and degrading to the fact that God still lives.  If you (generic you) want to know what something means, you don't have to waste forever arguing with mortals, just go ask a living God what is Truth-- He will answer you!   

Edited by Jane_Doe
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Larry,

Sorry I haven't checked back in a while.  It looks like others are providing answers.  I did come across an interesting magazine article about the 70AD destruction and Matthew 24 which you might find interesting:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/06/be-ye-also-ready-the-amazing-christian-escape-from-the-a-d-70-destruction-of-jerusalem?lang=eng

BTW - I did do research on Caiaphas's death and he would have been 87 at the start of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple if he was alive.  I think I'd actually read that before but had forgotten.

We aren't bothered by any scriptures with phrases like "this generation" or "last days" or whatever because there are explanations for different interpretations.  Even in mainstream Christianity you can find reasonable explanations (which I'm guessing you've read) to counter Preterism.

Earlier you were asking about how the world would pass away, because a translation of "end of age" could be applied to Matthew 24.  Yes, there was an "end of age" to the Jews in AD 70.  We can learn about it and marvel that Jesus warned them.  But, that doesn't preclude there being a Second Coming in the future.   I shared 2 Peter 3:10.  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/2-pet/3.10-13?lang=eng#p9 which I think speaks to a different end that is yet to happen.  The earth will be burned along with the wicked, and a changed earth (so, in a sense "new") will be for the righteous.  This didn't happen at 70 AD.  Another scripture that supports this is Isaiah 51: 6 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/51.6?lang=eng#p5  That chapter prophesies of still other things that are yet to happen.  Although there was destruction in 70AD, the earth wasn't totally burned and changed along with the destruction of all the wicked.  See also Psalm 102:25-26 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ps/102.25-26?lang=eng#p24   And, see in that same chapter vs 15-16 which will happen in the future.  Looking at more than Matthew 24 I think there's a good amount of evidence of a future Second Coming and a different kind of end.

There just seem to be so many Biblical prophecies related to the Second Coming that were not complete by 70AD, such as the great apostasy and restoration, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon which would start the restoration, the gospel being preached in all the world, the millennial reign of Jesus Christ in which there will be established a political (in addition to religious) Kingdom of God, the binding of Satan during the millennium, the millennial transformation of the Earth in which there will be great physical changes and the nature of animals changed, the Dead Sea being changed, two prophets working miracles in Jerusalem for 3.5 years before being killed then raised from the dead 3.5 days later, the gathering of Israel and restoring them to a knowledge of Christ, the deliverance of the Jews and Jesus showing them the nail prints in his hands, the dividing of sheep and goats via resurrection and judgement and the destruction of the wicked by fire, the return of Elijah and the welding between fathers and children, and so on.

However, the Biblical prophecies are not the complete basis for my understanding.  Additional scripture (Book of Mormon, D&C, and words of modern prophets) further support that there is a Second Coming of Christ yet in the future.   @Carborendum 's reply reminded me of Jacob 5 in the Book of Mormon (because it seems confusing at first) which gives an allegory about the history, scattering, and gathering of Israel.  It wasn't all done by 70AD.  The book of 4 Nephi covers the time period that includes 70AD and it makes no mention of the Second Coming happening.  And, there are later prophesies written in the Book of Mormon between 350AD and 400AD about the gathering of Israel and the restoring them to a knowledge of Christ in the future (Such as Mormon chapters 3 & 5).  The coming forth of the Book of Mormon and conversion of millions of people in fulfillment of these prophecies, along with like prophecies in the Bible, support the notion of a great restoration of the house of Israel preceding the Second Coming.

The D&C states even more directly that the second coming is in the future.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/29.11?lang=eng#p10

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/34.6?lang=eng#p5

 

The other question worth asking is why do we trust Book of Mormon, D&C, or modern prophets' words in addition to the Bible about "other sheep" or Matthew 24 or other topics?  The reason is a witness by the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.  Since God has told me the Book of Mormon is true, I rely on these resources.  My belief and confidence in the Bible is also strengthened from knowing the Book of Mormon is true.

Note however that I do acknowledge that my understanding of the word of God through them is not totally complete and perfect.  But, that's on me.

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Hi Zil

Quote

Quite familiar with scripture and the meanings attributed to it by the Church - we are not a loose affiliation of congregations - we are very much one in our teaching and understanding, practices and policies (worldwide - I could walk into any Mormon church building and find the same Sunday meetings as I find in my home ward).

First it's good to hear from you again, however I don't see  that as evidence of the only true church on earth. If I were a Jehovah Witness I would experience the same scenario.

Actually the bible tells us to make sure of all things. So following a meeting does the audience go home and do their homework with prayer to do that. I think it would be good to remember our standing with God is going to be on an individual bases, not what congregation or denomination we may belong to. 

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully;  hold fast to that which is good NASU

My main point is this, the words of salvation, the atonement of Christ, was followed by the Book of Mormons many years later. BTW I have no problem with that!

Nevertheless if those first century brother of ours who literally walked with Christ under server persecution and finally death did not pen the NT, there would not be a book of Mormons. And the hope of salvation plan through our savior would be lost, together with this forum. :) 

It reminds me of what Jesus said to His disciples on the Mount of Olives.  

Matthew 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. NKJV 

Quote

We are not only used to people trying to convince us we've got it wrong, we're inured to it - it's old hat

If it dosn't bother you what's the big deal, I thought we were suppose to love our neighbor. Did the religious leader do the same with Christ ministry. We should be jumping for joy with the opportunity to preach the word of God. 

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. KJV

Quote

Our doctrine is such that we are firm in our interpretations of scripture, and our firmness comes from prophets and the Holy Ghost, not from argument, reasoning, or even personal interpretation (except as such adds compatibly to what the prophets teach).

Quote

This is true of the vast majority of active, practicing Mormons.  (And from my observation, of all the practicing Mormons who participate on this site.)

My brother shouldn't we both consider what our Lord said,

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. KJV

Regards, Larry

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45 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

I don't see  that as evidence of the only true church on earth

I wasn't trying to give you evidence of that.  I was trying to answer your question to Jane as to whether she speaks for all of us or only herself.

Meanwhile, please learn to use the quote feature - it's a fluke that I even saw your reply to me - had you used the quote feature, it would have notified me that you replied to me.

47 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

If it dosn't bother you what's the big deal

Who said anyone was bothered - I was answering your question and trying to explain some facts which may or may not relate, depending on your goals.

Honestly, I can't follow most of what you write - either the sentences themselves don't make sense to me, or the sequence from paragraph to paragraph doesn't make sense to me.  My only goal was to answer your question and explain how Mormons would approach a discussion on interpretation of scripture.  If I failed, oh well.  There are others here who seem to understand what you're saying, so I'll leave it to them from now on.

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22 hours ago, Rhoades said:

Larry,

Sorry I haven't checked back in a while.  It looks like others are providing answers.  I did come across an interesting magazine article about the 70AD destruction and Matthew 24 which you might find interesting:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/06/be-ye-also-ready-the-amazing-christian-escape-from-the-a-d-70-destruction-of-jerusalem?lang=eng

BTW - I did do research on Caiaphas's death and he would have been 87 at the start of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple if he was alive.  I think I'd actually read that before but had forgotten.

We aren't bothered by any scriptures with phrases like "this generation" or "last days" or whatever because there are explanations for different interpretations.  Even in mainstream Christianity you can find reasonable explanations (which I'm guessing you've read) to counter Preterism.

Earlier you were asking about how the world would pass away, because a translation of "end of age" could be applied to Matthew 24.  Yes, there was an "end of age" to the Jews in AD 70.  We can learn about it and marvel that Jesus warned them.  But, that doesn't preclude there being a Second Coming in the future.   I shared 2 Peter 3:10.  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/2-pet/3.10-13?lang=eng#p9 which I think speaks to a different end that is yet to happen.  The earth will be burned along with the wicked, and a changed earth (so, in a sense "new") will be for the righteous.  This didn't happen at 70 AD.  Another scripture that supports this is Isaiah 51: 6 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/51.6?lang=eng#p5  That chapter prophesies of still other things that are yet to happen.  Although there was destruction in 70AD, the earth wasn't totally burned and changed along with the destruction of all the wicked.  See also Psalm 102:25-26 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ps/102.25-26?lang=eng#p24   And, see in that same chapter vs 15-16 which will happen in the future.  Looking at more than Matthew 24 I think there's a good amount of evidence of a future Second Coming and a different kind of end.

There just seem to be so many Biblical prophecies related to the Second Coming that were not complete by 70AD, such as the great apostasy and restoration, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon which would start the restoration, the gospel being preached in all the world, the millennial reign of Jesus Christ in which there will be established a political (in addition to religious) Kingdom of God, the binding of Satan during the millennium, the millennial transformation of the Earth in which there will be great physical changes and the nature of animals changed, the Dead Sea being changed, two prophets working miracles in Jerusalem for 3.5 years before being killed then raised from the dead 3.5 days later, the gathering of Israel and restoring them to a knowledge of Christ, the deliverance of the Jews and Jesus showing them the nail prints in his hands, the dividing of sheep and goats via resurrection and judgement and the destruction of the wicked by fire, the return of Elijah and the welding between fathers and children, and so on.

However, the Biblical prophecies are not the complete basis for my understanding.  Additional scripture (Book of Mormon, D&C, and words of modern prophets) further support that there is a Second Coming of Christ yet in the future.   @Carborendum 's reply reminded me of Jacob 5 in the Book of Mormon (because it seems confusing at first) which gives an allegory about the history, scattering, and gathering of Israel.  It wasn't all done by 70AD.  The book of 4 Nephi covers the time period that includes 70AD and it makes no mention of the Second Coming happening.  And, there are later prophesies written in the Book of Mormon between 350AD and 400AD about the gathering of Israel and the restoring them to a knowledge of Christ in the future (Such as Mormon chapters 3 & 5).  The coming forth of the Book of Mormon and conversion of millions of people in fulfillment of these prophecies, along with like prophecies in the Bible, support the notion of a great restoration of the house of Israel preceding the Second Coming.

The D&C states even more directly that the second coming is in the future.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/29.11?lang=eng#p10

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/34.6?lang=eng#p5

 

The other question worth asking is why do we trust Book of Mormon, D&C, or modern prophets' words in addition to the Bible about "other sheep" or Matthew 24 or other topics?  The reason is a witness by the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.  Since God has told me the Book of Mormon is true, I rely on these resources.  My belief and confidence in the Bible is also strengthened from knowing the Book of Mormon is true.

Note however that I do acknowledge that my understanding of the word of God through them is not totally complete and perfect.  But, that's on me.

About the Abomination of desolation

By George A. Horton, Jr.

“Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.” (Matt. 24:15–18.)

Of the abomination of desolation to which Jesus referred, Daniel wrote, “They shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.” (Dan. 11:31.)

The abomination had happened in 170 B.C. when the Syrian king Antiochus IV ordered a massacre in Jerusalem, profaned the altar of the temple, and carried away the temple treasures.2 The horrifying events under Antiochus were familiar to every Jew, and those who heard Jesus’ reference to Daniel vividly understood the Savior’s prophecies. 

Thanks for posting those linked editorial, the authors did an excellent job of putting it together. Conversely, not dogmatically, I'm not certain if Jesus had in mind Syrian King Antioch the massacre in Jerusalem in 170 BC years later. I think that Part of the state of affairs should stay put in the AD 70 episode.  

Adam Clarke's   (1760 or 1762 - 1832)      

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc.html

[The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel] This abomination of desolation, Luke (Luke 21:20-21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in Daniel 9 and 11; and so let everyone who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbis. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says (War, b. 6 chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

I found it interesting but not bizarre that George A. Horton, Jr. quoted Adam Clark in the article, a long time ago. I learned how commentator feed off each other in their understanding of scripture. I consider no denomination or congregation has a handle on all truth, and we should as students of the bible make sure of all things.

There is a book out called The Parousia by James Stuart Russell 1878, not sure if you read it, but it has set in motion for me and many others to understand  historical prophecy fulfilled.  BTW I'm not abandoning a future coming of Christ as you mentioned. 

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1878_russell_parousia.html

I will respond to your most interesting post subsequently, it was primarily what I was looking for. 

Thanks for reading

Larry

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19 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I thought somebody he said that I was the other sheep. :P

Well, you know about His sheep and His OTHER sheep.  I had introduced the OTHER other sheep.  But you're the Nether sheep.:D

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Quote

BTW - I did do research on Caiaphas's death and he would have been 87 at the start of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple if he was alive.  I think I'd actually read that before but had forgotten.

 

Matthew 16:27,28 Matthew 26:63

I understand  The coming of Christ in power, with authority,  and the kingdom of God established in AD 70. Furthermore  it was verification to the Jewish community that Jesus was in truth and deed the Son of God.

As you mentioned over a million Jews gathered for the occasion in AD 70 from all over, sadly they were entombed by the surrounding  Roman troops. Leading the people  to starvation and disease. Those poor souls who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Luke 21:22,23

Why is this stuff so important, it's imperative to listen with awareness to our Lord's words. The bible gives reason why! Luke 23:27,28  

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14 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

 

Matthew 16:27,28 Matthew 26:63

I understand  The coming of Christ in power, with authority,  and the kingdom of God established in AD 70. Furthermore  it was verification to the Jewish community that Jesus was in truth and deed the Son of God.

As you mentioned over a million Jews gathered for the occasion in AD 70 from all over, sadly they were entombed by the surrounding  Roman troops. Leading the people  to starvation and disease. Those poor souls who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Luke 21:22,23

Why is this stuff so important, it's imperative to listen with awareness to our Lord's words. The bible gives reason why! Luke 23:27,28  

The "millions" I was talking about are different.  A spiritual gathering of Israel and their conversion to Christ is happening now.  Jews frequently know they are of Judah, but people of other tribes typically don't know their lineage.  Lots of people throughout the world are actually descendants of various tribes of Israel (though they don't know it).  For example, lots of people in the Americas (north and south) are descendants of Israel's son Joseph through Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh.

In Genesis 29:22 Joseph was blessed, "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall".  He was "fruitful" because he would have a large posterity.  And those branches that were by the water and went over the wall include descendants that went across the ocean to the Americas.  One couldn't figure that out from that verse alone, but the Book of Mormon helps make it more clear.  The Book of Mormon teaches that it is a record of some of Joseph's descendants. 

Book of Mormon prophets also taught that their descendants would eventually reject the gospel of Jesus Christ.  They knew people from gentile nations across the ocean (i.e. Europe) would come to this land (Americas) and bring the Bible to their posterity and reintroduce Christianity to them.  Their record (Book of Mormon) after being buried for many years would come forth to show their posterity that they are actually of the house of Israel and help convert them to Christ.  The title page of the Book of Mormon says it was "written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile" and one of its purposes is "to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever".

Also worth mentioning is that the Judah and Joseph writings mentioned in Ezekial 37:16-19 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ezek/37.16-19#p14) that would be separate and then joined together are the Bible and Book of Mormon.

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On 12/6/2017 at 1:19 PM, mordorbund said:

As I mentioned in the hint above, the information has already been provided. This thread is only two pages long. Would you mind reviewing the responses to find the sources for the Mormon claim that the other sheep are from the house of Israel and not the Gentiles? Once you've done so, you can come back and post the sources and how they support the Mormon perspective.

Hi @zlarry123. I see you're still active on this thread. Since you're looking to understand the Mormon position (not just on this, but also on other doctrines) I think it's important for your understanding that you complete the above exercise. The reason I'm asking you to provide the sources is because the answer to your "other sheep" question and the reason for that answer is a really good pattern for the Mormon approach to doctrine and biblical interpretation. So if you don't mind, can you post the sources for why Mormons believe the "other sheep" are from lost Israel and not the Gentiles, and how those sources support that interpretation?

....

And I'll just lay my cards on the table here. Based on your posting history, it looks like you are more interested in using your questions to provide your own answers rather than to learn from anyone else. It's like the person at work who asks what you did this weekend - not because he actually cares, but because he needs the conversation to be about the weekend so he can talk about the awesome thing he did. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you keep returning to your pet interpretation and frankly my doubt is diminishing. I'm checking to see if you understand the Mormon interpretation because it's your stated purpose, and if you can explain it then we know how well we've met your stated objective.

Edited by mordorbund
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Rhoades

Quote

 

The "millions" I was talking about are different.  A spiritual gathering of Israel and their conversion to Christ is happening now. 

In Genesis 29:22 Joseph was blessed, "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall".  He was "fruitful" because he would have a large posterity.


 

 

As I understand marriage is a very solemn contract to produce a large posterity. It is a blessing in the plan of God, because the angel's residing in heaven will find a place to live in.

So the marriage produced millions of Jews to give more angel's a place to dwell. And by the symbolic prediction of the branches crossing water, is in reference to confirm Joseph Smith as true prophet by reading the Book of Mormons. Since before the 18th century when the book was written there were far and few-between Jewish converts like myself.

And those branches that were by the water and went over the wall include descendants that went across the ocean to the Americas. 

Interestingly the Apostle Paul who coined the phrase wall, uses the same terminology, the wall, where he is referring to the Mosaic Law that separated the Jews from Gentiles. Brought about by the crucifixion.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; KJV

There was also a wall surrounding the Jewish temple that separated them from the Gentiles.

Seem to me the incoming of the Gentile in the first century is what Jesus had in mind when speaking of the other sheep, the two becoming one. And that according to the Gospel what happened by the words of the Son of God.

Quote

One couldn't figure that out from that verse alone, but the Book of Mormon helps make it more clear.  The Book of Mormon teaches that it is a record of some of Joseph's descendants. 

Also following Christ death and resurrection, he visited the Americas to establish a church among the "Nephites." 

I took a cursory look once again at 3 Nephi 15–17  

I want to see if this is clear first before going into the reference you posted on Ezekial 37:16-19

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ezek/37.16-19#p14

Thanks for your patience

Larry

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