The promise of Section 76

[Vort]

The end of Section 76 reads:

Quote

But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; to whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; that through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory. And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76. Am I wrong?

If you think I am wrong, what exactly (or even approximately) do you think the promise means instead?

If you think I am not wrong...well, at the risk of shaming myself, to this point in my life I have not been granted this vision. Now I haven't specifically sought for it, which might be part of the problem; but I rather suppose that I'm simply not spiritually mature enough yet. I also suspect that those who have seen this vision probably don't talk openly about it, so I'm not expecting anyone to raise his/her hand. But does anyone have thoughts as to how this promise is fulfilled among men and women today?

Edited December 28, 2017 by Vort

[CV75]

51 minutes ago, Vort said:

The end of Section 76 reads:

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76. Am I wrong?

If you think I am wrong, what exactly (or even approximately) do you think the promise means instead?

If you think I am not wrong...well, at the risk of shaming myself, to this point in my life I have not been granted this vision. Now I haven't specifically sought for it, which might be part of the problem; but I rather suppose that I'm simply not spiritually mature enough yet. I also suspect that those who have seen this vision probably don't talk openly about it, so I'm not expecting anyone to raise his/her hand. But does anyone have thoughts as to how this promise is fulfilled among men and women today?

The mysteries that God showed Joseph were only to be recorded afterwards while they were not in the Spirit, seemingly to ensure proper boundaries and that we get the portion of the mysteries we are ready for.

The beginning of the vision says basically the same thing as the last verse: “For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end. Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations. And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught. For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.” (verses 5-10)

So I think it is a matter of "all in good time." I think that we can still, to an extent, see and understand these mysteries by the power of the Holy Spirit, and we can still love God, and purify ourselves before Him, and have granted this privilege of seeing and knowing these same things for ourselves, if only to an extent. So, I think the promise can be fulfilled by degrees. I think a lot is determined by what the Lords sees fit that we need, which is enough to keep going and magnify our stewardships as Joseph was given.

[skalenfehl]

I do not believe you are wrong, Vort. Furthermore, this section is a record of what both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon saw while in the flesh, which includes an audience with Jesus Christ (v. 11-14). Furthermore, this can be tied with Ether 4:4-15.

[skalenfehl]

This vision of glories happened after Joseph and Sidney moved to the John Johnson home in Hiram, Ohio, on September 12, 1831 to prepare texts of Joseph's translation of the Bible and had begun laboring with the Gospel of John. Upon examining John 5:29, they were shown a multifaceted vision beginning with a vision of the Father and the Son in the highest glory. One witness, Philo Dibble, present in the room recalled that the two men sat motionless for about an hour. One would say, "What do I see," and describe it, and the other would say, "I see the same" (Source: Juvenile Instructor 27 [May 15, 1892]:303-304).

Both Joseph and Sidney gazed into heaven for “about an hour.” Furthermore, it is apparent that Joseph did not impart all that he saw in vision, for he later said, "I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them." (Source: TPJS, p. 305). He also said, “Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject.” (Source: TPJS, p. 324)  If one could know more than all that was ever written on the subject by just gazing into heaven five minutes, what kind of knowledge, then, did Joseph and Sidney possess after gazing into heaven “for about an hour?” Certainly more than has ever been written on the subject by students and scholars.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

The end of Section 76 reads:

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76. Am I wrong?

If you think I am wrong, what exactly (or even approximately) do you think the promise means instead?

If you think I am not wrong...well, at the risk of shaming myself, to this point in my life I have not been granted this vision. Now I haven't specifically sought for it, which might be part of the problem; but I rather suppose that I'm simply not spiritually mature enough yet. I also suspect that those who have seen this vision probably don't talk openly about it, so I'm not expecting anyone to raise his/her hand. But does anyone have thoughts as to how this promise is fulfilled among men and women today?

Well, Im not sure about this particular vision but around the time of my sons birth 22 years ago I had several heavenly dreams and what could be described as visions of heaven. My vision was more along the lines of the traditional "heaven" and "hell" as taught by Christ. I do recall that time when my heart went through a mighty change. I also felt it had something to do with my son coming into tge world.

Im not sure if everyone saw a vision of heaven if they would all describe it the same. . 

[Anddenex]

7 hours ago, Vort said:

The end of Section 76 reads:

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76. Am I wrong?

If you think I am wrong, what exactly (or even approximately) do you think the promise means instead?

If you think I am not wrong...well, at the risk of shaming myself, to this point in my life I have not been granted this vision. Now I haven't specifically sought for it, which might be part of the problem; but I rather suppose that I'm simply not spiritually mature enough yet. I also suspect that those who have seen this vision probably don't talk openly about it, so I'm not expecting anyone to raise his/her hand. But does anyone have thoughts as to how this promise is fulfilled among men and women today?

I read and interpret this verse the same way you do. My mind believes these verses correlate with this verse, 2 Peter 1: 3-8 and Moses 6:60. If an individual is purifying themselves, this means they are exercising their faith unto repentance. This means they are continually reconciling themselves unto God.

This also reminds me of these two verses in Mormon chapter 9:

Quote

27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.

28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.

Well, I will raise my hand if the question was, "If you haven't experienced this yet"? This vision was my hope since I returned from my mission and when I first understood the principle of our calling and election made sure. I have sought it; however, sadly, I think my heart currently falls within "consuming it on my own lusts" rather than with a firmness unshaken. I wanted to tell all those damn dang anti-Mormons, "Screw you I know and you're wrong"! Fortunately, I have grown away from that mentality. I would still love this, but I am not sure I have yet accomplished what Omni said here, "offer your whole souls as an offering unto him." I think the world offers some luring things that I still love (i.e. a good worldly movie (Caveat: Marvel, DC, Lord of Rings, Van Damme pre-mission, and many more)).

I believe as with all of God's other promises that if we have the faith, the consistent actions to prove it, that God is bound to open the way. I struggle in the consistent actions to prove it though.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Anddenex

[Anddenex]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, Im not sure about this particular vision but around the time of my sons birth 22 years ago I had several heavenly dreams and what could be described as visions of heaven. My vision was more along the lines of the traditional "heaven" and "hell" as taught by Christ. I do recall that time when my heart went through a mighty change. I also felt it had something to do with my son coming into tge world.

Im not sure if everyone saw a vision of heaven if they would all describe it the same. . 

That depends on what part God wanted to show you and what parts he showed someone else.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Vort said:

The end of Section 76 reads:

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76. Am I wrong?

If you think I am wrong, what exactly (or even approximately) do you think the promise means instead?

If you think I am not wrong...well, at the risk of shaming myself, to this point in my life I have not been granted this vision. Now I haven't specifically sought for it, which might be part of the problem; but I rather suppose that I'm simply not spiritually mature enough yet. I also suspect that those who have seen this vision probably don't talk openly about it, so I'm not expecting anyone to raise his/her hand. But does anyone have thoughts as to how this promise is fulfilled among men and women today?

I believe you have the correct interpretation.  It is fulfilled exactly as you think it would be fulfilled.  People today will have such a vision.  Who says they don't?

The funny thing is that just before I came across your post, I was pondering the question: How exactly does one go about telling others that they've had a vision?  We see the flak Joseph got for declaring such.  And when your average member of the Church says they've received a vision, they're usually met with scorn or derision.  Often times it is for good reason. Their visions apparently say that it is ok to worship Ashera, or that the apostles have led the Church astray, or any number of interesting things.  That is derided for good cause.  It is leading us away from the oracles of God.  But I've read one or two declarations of visions that really revealed no false doctrines, but didn't reveal any new ones either.  Yet, I met them with skepticism.  Primarily, the descriptions offered seemed rather boring.  They didn't radiate the Spirit.  There was nothing inspiring about them.  There was nothing about them that said to my soul,"This was more than just a dream or the vain imaginings of one person's heart."  Could they have actually seen something?  Possibly.  But I sure didn't get any spiritual confirmation of such.

The other reason I have difficulty believing them is the part that you did NOT bold.

Quote

But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; neither is man capable to make them known,

So, to really reveal what is in the heavenly realms in not really possible.  I notice that in all visions of heaven, I see the description of what is said and people who were present, etc.  I don't read any description of the surroundings.  Is there an exception to that rule?  Visions have backgrounds if they are symbolic or prophetic.  But the description of heaven itself?  I don't know of any.  Some of these "alternative" visions try to describe them.  I find that odd.

Having a vision would be parallel to, but on a higher plane than, having a lucid dream.  How often have we had a very intense dream that cause us to wake in a sweat with heart thumping that seemed so clear and real while we were dreaming, then wake with only a vague memory of the details?  I wake and think,"There was something very important I needed to get done.  And I was going... to this place... "  As intense and as clear as the dream was, I wake with only a very general ability to remember.  Visions can be like that.

Consider the fact that we're in a very unfamiliar realm.  Our spirits consider them familiar because they were once there.  So, while in the spirit, it makes all the sense in the world.  But once back in the body, our physical brains have difficulty processing such an event.  It may seem somewhat of a jumble and a blur.

Joseph had enough visions where he became much more familiar with that realm.  As he received more visions, he was able to remember more and see more clearly.  I personally believe that no other prophet of this dispensation has been so accustomed to visions.  Line upon line.  Precept upon precept.

I also believe that they were certainly more familiar with them than your average member of the Church.  Even section 138 may very well have been missing many parts of the actual vision itself.  Nephi saw more than Lehi for a similar reason.  Therefore, we have the statement from Brigham Young about being "but a yankee guesser" compared to Joseph.

People have visions a lot more than we'd think.  But most are instructed not to talk about them.  And if they are not apostles, I don't see why anyone else would be given a Spiritual confirmation that they are true.

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 1:13 PM, Vort said:

The end of Section 76 reads:

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76. Am I wrong?

If you think I am wrong, what exactly (or even approximately) do you think the promise means instead?

If you think I am not wrong...well, at the risk of shaming myself, to this point in my life I have not been granted this vision. Now I haven't specifically sought for it, which might be part of the problem; but I rather suppose that I'm simply not spiritually mature enough yet. I also suspect that those who have seen this vision probably don't talk openly about it, so I'm not expecting anyone to raise his/her hand. But does anyone have thoughts as to how this promise is fulfilled among men and women today?

 

I haven't had time to go over all the statements in this thread.  I'm trying to do a quick gloss over highlights of the forum before I have to leave, but I have some thoughts on this (obviously as I am writing).

We must be careful how we interpret some things.  There is a rogue and apostate faction in the church today that has some false theology based upon ideas they interpret in this verse as well as other verses.  They believe in order to be saved one has to receive their calling and election in this life, and that to do this it must be received from the Lord in the flesh.  This is an apostate interpretation of it.  This type of interpretation has made many people worry about their salvation, as well as their worthiness.

The real key is that it is not necessary for one's salvation, and that things can be revealed to individuals, even without seeing the Lord.  Of all the General authorities, only a few have seen the Lord, and of those, most do not share their experiences of it except in special times or special circumstances so as the things of the Lord will not be mocked among the current generation of people living on the earth (and as such preserve such a generation from the condemnation of mocking the prophets for saying such).

I think the key to the verse when asking about it is as follows

Quote

 to whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves

It is up to the Lord whether one will be granted this privilege or not.  There are MANY who are faithful and loyal to the Lord, but who do not see him in this life. The Lord told Thomas (I believe it was) that those who believe on the words of others are so much more blessed than those who have to see and believe.  You may be the most righteous person on this Earth Vort (probably more righteous than I), and yet, you may never see the Lord in this life.  That is no judgment on your character, but rather that the Lord judged it unnecessary to grant that privilege currently, perhaps as there was no need or reason).  Saul as a wicked man saw the Lord, but it was for a reason, and as such became Paul.  Others, such as Elder Haight saw the Lord and the events in the Garden of Gethsemane via dream/vision and though he was probably pure and worthy of it, it was also for a purpose as he was called as a Special Witness of Jesus Christ.

It is as the Lord wills it. I have no doubt that you strive to be righteous and pure, and there are probably others who are not so righteous or pure that have received such a vision...but it is as the Lord grants, and in his own due time.  If it is after our deaths, then so be it, but if it is in this life, then glorify the Lord for it.

I will say this though...people who aspire to this do not realize what they are asking sometimes.  With greater knowledge comes greater challenges and opposition.  If one feels life is hard already, when granted more knowledge from the Lord, it can become even harder than it was previously.  If one knows with absolute certainty, then expect the Jaws of Hell to open up as if to devour you and only faith in the Lord will preserve you then.  It is a great blessing, but the challenge will be more than some can take in this life.  AS such, the Lord will not grant you to be tempted more than you are able.  Thus sometimes, things are for our own benefit so that we can withstand and endure to the end, even though we'd love to have the blessings we feel we could gain if we had these things happen to us.

[Traveler]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 1:13 PM, Vort said:

The end of Section 76 reads:

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76. Am I wrong?

If you think I am wrong, what exactly (or even approximately) do you think the promise means instead?

If you think I am not wrong...well, at the risk of shaming myself, to this point in my life I have not been granted this vision. Now I haven't specifically sought for it, which might be part of the problem; but I rather suppose that I'm simply not spiritually mature enough yet. I also suspect that those who have seen this vision probably don't talk openly about it, so I'm not expecting anyone to raise his/her hand. But does anyone have thoughts as to how this promise is fulfilled among men and women today?

 

It is my opinion that you are not correct and that all will not see the revelation in this life (see Moroni Chapter 10 - especially verses from 8 on).  I believe that those that do receive in this ( what you reference ) - in this life - shall do so in the temple.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is my opinion that you are not correct and that all will not see the revelation in this life (see Moroni Chapter 10 - especially verses from 8 on).  I believe that those that do receive in this ( what you reference ) - in this life - shall do so in the temple.

@Vort

Is that what you meant by this?

On 12/28/2017 at 2:13 PM, Vort said:

I interpret the above, specifically the part in bolded italic, as meaning that all those who love God and purify themselves through the power of the Holy Ghost (which presupposes baptism) are granted this same vision that Joseph Smith experienced in Section 76.

ALL?

Are we talking about the Brother of Jared kind of thing?  Or what are you saying?  I don't believe that someone needs to get to the level of the Brother of Jared to have such a revelation.  And I don't believe that we need to in order to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom.

What I do believe is that many individuals have had such visions.  But they just don't talk about them.  Why should they?