For by grace you are saved....

[warnerfranklin]

One of the things I appreciate about being a relatively new Mormon (coming over from an evangelical background) is being able to develop a deeper appreciation of scriptures as I study The Book of Mormon and the Bible side by side.

One of those appreciations comes from the comparison of the following two scriptures:

For by grace are yea saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

and...

 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.  2 Nephi 25:23

Now before I became a Mormon this is the type of verse I would point to and say, “see you people believe in salvation by works!”  

When I read this 2 Nephi 25:23 for the first time about six months ago, that was my initial knee-jerk reaction, but after I consider this passage it occurred to me that all blessings in the scriptures are predicated on us doing something.

If you believe in your heart.... Romans 10:9

Seek and yea shall find....  Matthew 7:7

Tithe and you will be blessed.... Malachi 3:10

etc....

I also found, when I was trying to eliminate a stronghold in my life, that it was only after “I did all I could do” that God’s grace came into play. I don’t believe this stronghold was demolished because of anything I did, but because I demonstrated that I was willing to be obedient now matter what the cost to me (God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble James 4:6).

Someone once said (I forget who), “God honors the honest desire of His children to be obedient and to draw closer to Him.  In the beginning that is enough.”  Through my struggles I have most certainly have found that to be true. This is the part, the willingness to be obedient, is where our Father is able to apply Grace because without the willingness to be obedient on our part He can’t bless us. 

Let me know what you think. ??

[prisonchaplain]

I've come to realize that arguing Grace v. Works from Evangelical vs. LDS perspectives is like trying to discuss an elephant by debating about it's trunk (it's long...no! it's loud!). In Pentecostal circles we talk about "seed faith." If we plant "a seed," by doing or giving a small amount, we can expect to reap a great harvest. Ultimately, I've been told that LDS do believe that salvation (to an eternal reward) is totally by grace, but that the greater rewards/responsibilities come with faith-that-produces. I'm not so sure that's different from my Evangelical belief that in heaven some will receive greater responsibilities (dare I say more stars in their crown?) based on their 'harvest' (30, 60, 100), or their use of talents (1, 2, 5). So, I agree with your post. There is much to discuss in what is different about Evangelical vs. LDS understandings about the nature of salvation, and our part in it, but reducing that to grace vs. works generally needs to debate based on multiple misunderstandings. Thanks for your great post!

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, warnerfranklin said:

One of the things I appreciate about being a relatively new Mormon (coming over from an evangelical background) is being able to develop a deeper appreciation of scriptures as I study The Book of Mormon and the Bible side by side.

One of those appreciations comes from the comparison of the following two scriptures:

For by grace are yea saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

and...

 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.  2 Nephi 25:23

Now before I became a Mormon this is the type of verse I would point to and say, “see you people believe in salvation by works!”  

When I read this 2 Nephi 25:23 for the first time about six months ago, that was my initial knee-jerk reaction, but after I consider this passage it occurred to me that all blessings in the scriptures are predicated on us doing something.

If you believe in your heart.... Romans 10:9

Seek and yea shall find....  Matthew 7:7

Tithe and you will be blessed.... Malachi 3:10

etc....

I also found, when I was trying to eliminate a stronghold in my life, that it was only after “I did all I could do” that God’s grace came into play. I don’t believe this stronghold was demolished because of anything I did, but because I demonstrated that I was willing to be obedient now matter what the cost to me (God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble James 4:6).

Someone once said (I forget who), “God honors the honest desire of His children to be obedient and to draw closer to Him.  In the beginning that is enough.”  Through my struggles I have most certainly have found that to be true. This is the part, the willingness to be obedient, is where our Father is able to apply Grace because without the willingness to be obedient on our part He can’t bless us. 

Let me know what you think. ??

We certainly are saved by grace!  Without Christ and without grace, every one of us would end up in outer darkness for having sinned even a single time.  By grace, virtually every one in the world will end up at least in the telestial kingdom and be saved.  This is pure grace of Christ.  Same for the resurrection - without grace, none of us would be resurrected.  By grace, all of us will be resurrected.  None of these things come about through works - salvation from hell is through grace and grace alone.

Works come into play regarding one's place in heaven (whether one can be exalted), but even this is not totally accurate - grace is very much at work here, in enabling repentance, etc., not to mention all the works in the world could not truly "earn" such a great gift as eternal life.

So, while works have a place in gaining exaltation, it really is grace that ultimately saves us all.

[Guest]

I should someday tell you how I consider myself to be simultaneously BOTH a Mormon AND a Born Again Christian!  The two are NOT mutually exclusive for me, and yes, I have very much had a moment when I was 11 years old where I had the type of specific experience where I accepted Jesus as my savior and had a very spiritual experience in doing so.  At that point, I didn't know much about doctrinal details - I just had a pure, very religious experience with Christ where I begged him to save my soul in earnest prayer and forgive me of my sins, and I know he accepted.

Some people would say, "hey, that can't be right, you can't be BOTH a Born Again Christian AND a Mormon!"  But here I am.  I know what I experienced, and I know it is exactly the thing that my Southern Baptist friends would describe as being "saved".  

Food for thought!

Edited February 7, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[Jane_Doe]

Of course we are saved by grace!  It is God's gift to us!

That being said, being disciple of Christ (aka a Christian) is about following Him.   Being a Christian is != being a couch potato!  We were not created to be couch potatoes who do nothing, and following Him doesn't involve couch-potatoing.  Rather it involves gives EVERYTHING to Him - our celebration, our love, our actions, our thoughts, our hearts.  Being a Christian is about holding nothing back for us, and giving it all to Him.  And even after we give him everything (aka each person's entire collection of rags), He's still gifting us far more-- eternal magnificent robes for the child of the highest king.   

I've visited a LOT of Christian groups over the years, and have never met one which does not joyfully shout "Amen!" to that.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[anatess2]

There was this talk President Uchdorf gave about God's Blessings being very abundant such that it is like rain falling on every person.  The reason people don't get soaked in the blessings is not because God did not grace them with it but because they hold up an umbrella.

[prisonchaplain]

14 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I should someday tell you how I consider myself to be simultaneously BOTH a Mormon AND a Born Again Christian!  The two are NOT mutually exclusive for me, and yes, I have very much had a moment when I was 11 years old where I had the type of specific experience where I accepted Jesus as my savior and had a very spiritual experience in doing so.  At that point, I didn't know much about doctrinal details - I just had a pure, very religious experience with Christ where I begged him to save my soul in earnest prayer and forgive me of my sins, and I know he accepted.

Some people would say, "hey, that can't be right, you can't be BOTH a Born Again Christian AND a Mormon!"  But here I am.  I know what I experienced, and I know it is exactly the thing that my Southern Baptist friends would describe as being "saved".  

Food for thought!

I would greatly appreciate hearing the long version of this experience. Were you alone, in your ward, in a different setting? How did you come to embrace the phrase "born again" (my Lutheran grandma never would use the term--she said she was born into the church, and believed from the get-go, so did not need to be 'born again'). BTW, I believe she was. In any case, I'd love to hear/read about this encounter--and perhaps, how some of your LDS brothers/sisters have reacted to your saying you're a born again Mormon.

[Maureen]

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

...Being a Christian is != being a couch potato!...

Can you explain this sentence? Is it just a weird typo?

M.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Can you explain this sentence? Is it just a weird typo?

M.

!= is code for "not equal" or <>

[zil]

Just now, zil said:

!= is code for "not equal" or <>

I do that sometimes too, but try to catch them and replace them with words.

[Jane_Doe]

9 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Can you explain this sentence? Is it just a weird typo?

M.

"Not equal".  Sorry... I should write in English and not code.

[Jane_Doe]

22 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I would greatly appreciate hearing the long version of this experience. Were you alone, in your ward, in a different setting? How did you come to embrace the phrase "born again" (my Lutheran grandma never would use the term--she said she was born into the church, and believed from the get-go, so did not need to be 'born again'). BTW, I believe she was. In any case, I'd love to hear/read about this encounter--and perhaps, how some of your LDS brothers/sisters have reacted to your saying you're a born again Mormon.

PC, I'm going to make you a whole thread about this:

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[JohnsonJones]

An example of the Mormon idea of Grace.

I can take some kids to Disneyland.  It is $100 dollars a ticket.  I have 7 kids, but only $400 to give out (if they give me enough heads up though, for example, an hour before I go, I can get MORE money so all of them can go, but from past experience I can make a good estimate of how many actually WILL state they want to go).  I have to decide which kids really want to go to Disneyland and which ones do not want to go.  I simply tell them some menial task...for example...they have to tell me that they want to go to Disneyland before I get in the car and drive there.

Three kids tell me they want to go.  They get to go.  This took action on their part, they had to express to me that they actually wanted to go to Disneyland, and so as per my request, had to make sure that I Knew this. 

The fourth one tells me that they had intended to let me know right as I go out to the car, but kept on forgetting because of schoolwork, or had to do her hair, or many other excuses.  She starts crying...and begs me to let her go even though I had already basically gotten ready to go, but as I am not gone yet...I of course let her get ready and as long as she can be ready when I start up the car, she gets to go.

None of these kids have the money to be able to afford to go, none of them can pay for it.  It's all on me, I'm paying the entire way.  They still had to take an action on their part, but it in no way even pays a single penny of the cost.  They had to take that action, but I'm still the one paying the entirety of it.

On the way there I get a phone call from home telling me the other three kids are upset that I did not take them to Disneyland with me.  However, they never told me that they wanted go.  They never took the action that I had asked them to do.  It is possible I could have gotten more money from the bank if they had told me they wanted to go and I had enough of a heads up, but they never said a word.  Because of their inaction, they did not get to go to Disneyland.

None of them paid anything to go, I cover the entirety of the cost.  Nothing they did would cover the cost, once again, that's all on me.  However, there WAS action required on their part to be able to go.

In that same way, I think is sort of a parallel to how I think works and grace are related in regards to what we as Mormons do.  We have actions to show the Lord that we want to follow him and be with him, however, those actions in no way, shape, or form, even have an inkling of being able to pay anything in regards to the cost.  Thus it is only by Grace that we are saved.

Edited February 7, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I would greatly appreciate hearing the long version of this experience. Were you alone, in your ward, in a different setting? How did you come to embrace the phrase "born again" (my Lutheran grandma never would use the term--she said she was born into the church, and believed from the get-go, so did not need to be 'born again'). BTW, I believe she was. In any case, I'd love to hear/read about this encounter--and perhaps, how some of your LDS brothers/sisters have reacted to your saying you're a born again Mormon.

Here it goes.

When I was eight years old, I did something very bad.  I was fighting with my mother and having a tantrum.  She told me I was acting in a way that disappointed God.  I waited until she left the room and basically, because I was angry and very young (remember I was eight years old), I cursed God.

I spent the next three years wondering, "What have I done?"  I assumed I had committed a sin awful enough to automatically send me to hell.  I didn't tell anyone - it was my secret, that I believed I was a son of perdition.

When I was 11, I couldn't take it any more.  One night when I was laying in bed, I told my mom I had done something awful and was unworthy of God's love.  She told me she was going to leave the room and I needed to pray to Him and have a talk with my Father.

I didn't know a lot of doctrine at this point - I didn't know about whether God was a trinity or not, the balance of faith and works, any of that.  I just knew that Jesus died for my sins, and if I had any hope it was through Him.

I prayed and was weeping as I prayed.  I told Heavenly Father that I was sorry for what I had done, and asked him to please, please forgive me and not send me to hell and to please, please help me, knowing that Christ was my only hope.

And like that, the intense guilt I had felt for three years was just gone, replaced by feelings of peace.  I felt such powerful relief.  I knew I had reached out, pleaded with the Lord to have mercy on me, a sinner, and to please save me from hell.  And I knew very strongly and powerfully that He had done so.  My relationship with God and Jesus changed from that day forward.  It was a very strong experience that was almost supernatural in intensity.

Later, I found out about the "sinner's prayer" and the moment of being born again, as taught by Protestants.  I believe that this specific moment was when I truly converted to following Christ and invited Him into my life, when the gospel became real to me.  I guess many of my Protestant friends would say I had a born again experience and then became indoctrinated later on, and many of my Mormon friends would say I had an intense spiritual experience that was essential for finding my testimony.  But whatever happened, I felt something and it was real and from God.  It was a pure spiritual experience.

And that is why I believe I am a Born Again Christian, and a Mormon.  

(I don't tell other people necessarily that I am a Born Again Christian/Mormon, but really, isn't that what I am, after having this experience?)

Edited February 7, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

(I don't tell other people necessarily that I am a Born Again Christian/Mormon, but really, isn't that what I am, after having this experience?)

I will continue to debate/discuss/have convicted conversations about LDS v. Evangelical doctrine until I die, or become convinced otherwise. However, thankfully, it's not my place to question the authenticity of another's testimony. This I can say though--in heavenly glory I suspect that there will be many souls whom I may have bested in the doctrinal correctness category, who nevertheless outshined me in their devotion, their witness, and their express of love to God/neighbor. Then again, so long as I'm there I'll have no complaints. 

[warnerfranklin]

9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

There is much to discuss in what is different about Evangelical vs. LDS understandings about the nature of salvation, and our part in it, but reducing that to grace vs. works generally needs to debate based on multiple misunderstandings.

 

Having been on both sides of the fence I really don’t think the differences between evangelicals and Mormons are as great as people think. Like you said just LOTS of misunderstandings. I’m so glad this forum exists so people from different backgrounds can strip away the misconceptions we have and concentrate on what we have in common: one faith and one Lord who loves us all. 

[laronius]

Here are two additional Book of Mormon scriptures that have helped me in understanding the "after all we can do" principle.

2 Nephi 10:24  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh, and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. 

Alma 24:11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain-

In the 2 Nephi scripture the "after all we can do" is replaced with becoming "reconciled unto God" or "to the will of God." In the Alma scripture it is equated with "to repent of all our sins" or to "repent sufficiently before God." Some food for thought.

[Sunday21]

On 2018-02-07 at 2:50 PM, DoctorLemon said:

I should someday tell you how I consider myself to be simultaneously BOTH a Mormon AND a Born Again Christian!  The two are NOT mutually exclusive for me, and yes, I have very much had a moment when I was 11 years old where I had the type of specific experience where I accepted Jesus as my savior and had a very spiritual experience in doing so.  At that point, I didn't know much about doctrinal details - I just had a pure, very religious experience with Christ where I begged him to save my soul in earnest prayer and forgive me of my sins, and I know he accepted.

Some people would say, "hey, that can't be right, you can't be BOTH a Born Again Christian AND a Mormon!"  But here I am.  I know what I experienced, and I know it is exactly the thing that my Southern Baptist friends would describe as being "saved".  

Food for thought!

 I thought many/most lds people had the same type of experience!

[warnerfranklin]

23 minutes ago, laronius said:

Here are two additional Book of Mormon scriptures that have helped me in understanding the "after all we can do" principle.

2 Nephi 10:24  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh, and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. 

Alma 24:11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain-

In the 2 Nephi scripture the "after all we can do" is replaced with becoming "reconciled unto God" or "to the will of God." In the Alma scripture it is equated with "to repent of all our sins" or to "repent sufficiently before God." Some food for thought.

Thank you for the scriptures!  I am always looking for something quotable!

There might be the misunderstanding that I am confused as to whether or not we are saved by grace.  I'm not.  For me, the verse from 2 Nephi 25:23 had more to do in a change in my line of thinking from being an evangelical to becoming a Mormon.

A lot of churches in the evangelical community will preach something along the lines of, "The victory is already won, all you have to do is claim it."  Which sounds good and all, but is, unfortunately not true.  Since becoming a Mormon I have found that to be a "successful" Christian there is a lot of work to do.  Even if that work is just, in the words of Elder Holland, "Holding onto the ground we have already won."

I think a lot of my frustration as an evangelical came from buying into the lie that all I had to do "was accept the work already done by Christ".

But battles aren't won by just claiming victory.  They're won by actually fighting.  When I described eliminating a stronghold in my life I was talking about learning how to forgive.  I have struggled most of my life with bitterness and unforgiveness.  When, in late 2016, I felt God calling on me to work on that I began what was probably the most difficult part of my spiritual life.  Lots of prayers, lots of tears, lots of repentance, lots of requests for prayers and asking for blessing, lots of learning new habits to replace the old ones and lots and lots of failure....

And it was during these times of failure, after having done all that I could do, that God's Grace came in. Having days where failure abounded and going to our Father and saying, "I'm sorry, I don't want to be that person anymore, please forgive me."  and always getting the answer back of, "it's okay, we'll try again tomorrow."

Having days where I'd have one rolling wave of bitterness after another wash over me, days where I would be reminded of things I had literally not thought of in decades, days where....  if you haven't gone through this I don't know how to adequately explain it (and no I'm not trying to be overly dramatic), but having days where all I could do is ask for someone to give me a blessing.  And while the blessing didn't make the struggle any less difficult it did give me the strength to keep on fighting for the rest of the day.  Strength, that I believe, was God's Grace working in me.

Grace was what allowed me to learn how forgive.  Grace was what allowed me to, in the words of CS Lewis, "replace a vice with a virtue"; to learn new habits.

Grace that granted, at the end, to have the understanding that my unforgiveness was not a sin towards the people I hadn't forgiven, but a sin against God because I had ignored what He said about His demand that we forgive others (Matthew 6:15). 

I don't think I would have come to rely on his strength if I hadn't have had to struggle as hard as I did.  I don't think I wold  understood His Grace if I hadn't been brought to a place where my utter bankruptcy hadn't have been laid bare.  But all of this was predicated on my doing something. By at least wanting to change and trying to be obedient.   "....for we know that it is by Grace that we are saved, after all we can do."  

"God honors the honest desire of His children to be obedient.  In the beginning that is enough."  I don't think Grace is just about salvation. 

“God will meet you where you are to take you to where He wants you to go.”  Pastor Tony Evans – Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship     

I think, for me at least, it is along this journey that we learn and accept His Grace.

I have a testimony that God honors the honest desire of His children to be obedient and draw closer to Him.  In the beginning that is enough.  Once you have learned that Grace will lead you home.  

 

 

[laronius]

I think part of the misunderstanding in the grace vs works debate between LDS and other Christians is the nature of works that we LDS believe in. I think many Evangelicals (and even some LDS for that matter) view our belief concerning works as a principle independent of grace when in reality it is the complete opposite. Do our own works save us? No. Our own works are never that good. But do works save us? Yes, God's works. But to say God's works ceased following his death and resurrection is only telling half the story. In our LDS Bible dictionary it describes grace as an enabling power. This enabling power helps us maintain good works that we could not do otherwise. Hence, it is God working in and through us in the performance of these works that helps bring about salvation. The Lord made it very clear that those who seek to "do good" but not in connection with his will and grace will not be accepted before him. In Matt. 7:21-23 Jesus pointed out that it is doing God's will and not our own (no matter how grand our intentions) that will allow us to enter into his kingdom. And it is though God's grace that we both know his will and are able to do it.

[laronius]

@warnerfranklin your experience describes Ether 12:27 perfectly.

Edited February 10, 2018 by laronius

[warnerfranklin]

1 minute ago, laronius said:

@warnerfranklin your experience describes Ether 12:27 perfectly.

I have not gotten to the Book of Ether yet, so thank you.  Thank you very much.  This is a scripture I will cherish.