Moses 2:26

[Grunt]

Even though this is related to my other thread, I'm hoping it answers a question or two.  Thus, I'll start a new thread that is properly titled and searchable.

The lesson I'm stuck on is Gospel Principles, Chapter 5.  Christ as the creator of land and sky is a new concept for me, and I'm not solid on it.  However, also in this chapter, they discuss the creation of Adam.  God says unto Christ:

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“And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so” 

His only begotten?  I thought Christ was his "Only Begotten" through the miracle of Mary?  This hadn't happened yet and it seems odd to foreshadow it.  

With me from the beginning?  I understand some of this might get into deep doctrine, but it IS in the Principles class.  Weren't we all with him from the beginning?

He also calls to make man in "our" image.  Our?  Christ didn't have a body yet.  He was in his pre-mortal image, just like us.  Why would he say "our", when in Genesis he says His own image?  

[Jane_Doe]

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

His only begotten?  I thought Christ was his "Only Begotten" through the miracle of Mary?  

Yep.  

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

This hadn't happened yet and it seems odd to foreshadow it.  

I'm not sure why you think this.  But yeah, Christ held that title before physically being born.  

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

With me from the beginning?  I understand some of this might get into deep doctrine, but it IS in the Principles class.  Weren't we all with him from the beginning?

Yes we were all with him in the beginning.  Though Christ was ONE with the Father (100% unified) before the creation/fall/atonement.  For a Principle's class on the creation of the Earth, I'm not sure why'd you go into that (not that there's a nothing wrong with it either, I'm just thinking for simplicity sake).  It just seems more logical to talk about the Creation in a Creation class. 

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

He also calls to make man in "our" image.  Our?  Christ didn't have a body yet.  He was in his pre-mortal image, just like us.  Why would he say "our", when in Genesis he says His own image?  

Your spirit looks generally like your body (I don't know an actual reference for that belief though).

Again, Christ is working 100% in perfect unison with the Father.

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm not sure why you think this.  But yeah, Christ held that title before physically being born.  

 

Why?  How?  Was it talking about things to come?

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Yes we were all with him in the beginning.  Though Christ was ONE with the Father (100% unified) before the creation/fall/atonement.  For a Principle's class on the creation of the Earth, I'm not sure why'd you go into that (not that there's a nothing wrong with it either, I'm just thinking for simplicity sake).  It just seems more logical to talk about the Creation in a Creation class. 

1

Why was Christ unified but we weren't?   Also, I have NO desire to go into ANY of that in a Principles class and would certainly NEVER bring it up.  However, these were questions I remember having in the class and I want to at least have a short answer and understanding.  I can then acknowledge, briefly answer, then say it isn't really a topic for this class rather than giving them nothing.

Thanks for the answers!

[zil]

A few things:

1) Moses is basically the Joseph Smith translation of the beginning of Genesis - that's why it differs from Genesis, it's Joseph Smith's corrections to Genesis.

2) Abraham's creation account is a good thing (IMO) to add to your study of the creation. (Personally, it's my favorite version of the creation account.)

3) God speaks of future things as if they had already happened.  Here are some scriptures to consider in relation to that:

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Abraham 3:17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

Unlike us, there's nothing iffy about the future for God.  If he says he will do it, he will do it.

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Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

We need time (and corresponding verb tenses, God doesn't).

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Moses 1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

Again, God knows the future and can therefore speak of it as if it had already happened.  See also D&C 38:2-3.

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Moses 5:9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

See also the topical guide entry for "Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son", especially Moses 2:1,26 and D&C 76:13.

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Moses 4:1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

Only begotten is a title, a role Christ was called to and covenanted to take on himself.

Another instance of someone else doing this:

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Moses 4:26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many.

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Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Eve was just introduced to Adam, she had not yet born a single child, yet she was called the mother of all living - because that was the role she took on, and it was what would be.

Hope that helps.

[Jane_Doe]

(Answering this for Grunt, not Principles class)

8 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Why?  How?  Was it talking about things to come?

... looking for the best word... "fore-ordination" perhaps?  God knows all.  Christ had already accepted the role He would play.  

8 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Why was Christ unified but we weren't?

Christ was chosen for His role because He was the one selected/up to it.  We weren't/aren't. 

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Grunt]

As usual, I'm amazed at the time you all put into plainly answering these questions.  Thank you very much.  I don't know how you find this stuff so fast.

[zil]

Oops, forgot the "our image part" - will try to do that before rushing off to Stake Conference:

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John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Christ looks exactly like the Father.  I'm pretty sure Joseph Smith said that too - sorry, no time to hunt outside the scriptures.  (See the footnotes on the word "Father" in that verse - there are several others which say Christ was in the image of his Father.)

Also, I think it's just a general statement - let's make a human being.  (Though I think I've heard it said that Adam himself also looked like God - and scriptures say Seth was the express image of Adam.)

[zil]

Regarding the with me from the beginning bit - yes, we all were, but Christ was far, far beyond most of us in progression.

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Abraham 3:19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

It is generally understood that this is Christ teaching Abraham.  I had an institute teacher who said that the Lord was not just more intelligent that the most intelligent of the rest of us, but that he was more intelligent than all the rest of us put together (the sum of us).  Something to ponder anyway.

Gotta run off to Stake Conference now:

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Grunt said:

He also calls to make man in "our" image.  Our?  Christ didn't have a body yet.  He was in his pre-mortal image, just like us.  Why would he say "our", when in Genesis he says His own image?  

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And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: 

Gen 1:26

 

[zil]

16 hours ago, Grunt said:

He also calls to make man in "our" image.  Our?  Christ didn't have a body yet.

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D&C 77:2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse?

A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

Doesn't matter that Christ was a spirit - his spirit and body have the same basic appearance.

[zil]

Oh, another:

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Ether 3:7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

A few more verses in that chapter, if not the whole thing may prove useful.

[wenglund]

On 2/10/2018 at 5:27 PM, Grunt said:

His only begotten?  I thought Christ was his "Only Begotten" through the miracle of Mary?  This hadn't happened yet and it seems odd to foreshadow it.  

Long before his atoning sacrifice, and even prior to his birth into mortality, God the Son was referred to as Savior and Redeemer.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[wenglund]

On 2/11/2018 at 1:58 PM, changed said:

... whose son was he again? and how is this g-d's son?  wasn't he the son of that carpenter?

:The term "father" applies biologically as well as in reference to the man who raised him--not unlike with adoption.

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- after which a discussion of genealogy happens, and Jesus is proclaimed a "son of God" through Adam...

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Kind of interesting as all of us are supposed to be children of Adam and Eve - so I guess we are all grandchildren of G-d?

The designation "son of God" may either refer literally to Adam's pre-mortal spirit, in which case we are all sons of God even as Adam; or it could refer figuratively to Adam's creation on earth, in which case we are both the "grandchildren" of God through Adam, or the "sons of God" in that we, too, are God's creations.

Furthermore, we are children of God , and he our father, and the church our mother, by being born again through baptism. 

Finally  we will be children of God, and God as our father, by being born anew through the resurrection.

In each of these cases, the "God" and the "father" is both God the Father and God the Son, since the Father doeth all things through the Son.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Anddenex]

On 2/11/2018 at 1:58 PM, changed said:

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

... whose son was he again? and how is this g-d's son?  wasn't he the son of that carpenter? - after which a discussion of genealogy happens, and Jesus is proclaimed a "son of God" through Adam...

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 

Kind of interesting as all of us are supposed to be children of Adam and Eve - so I guess we are all grandchildren of G-d?

No; although, it is a logical question. This is referencing that there was no "father" before Adam. Adam is the first male parent, Eve is the first female parent of the sons and daughters of God. This is referencing the creation. God created Adam and Eve, Adam was not the "son" of some other earthly creature. Adam was the creation of God, in an immortal state. No "father" before Adam. Adam's life began with the creation.

We are all the sons and daughters of God. We are all made in his image. Adam and Eve's creation though is different from ours. Our bodies never existed in an immortal state as Adam and Eve. So, how would an author describe genealogy down to Adam? Just as we see it described, "son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam (Adam has no earthly father or parentage), thus the statement "which was the son of God" referencing the creation.

[person0]

25 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is referencing that there was no "father" before Adam.

Or. . . it could be referencing a more complete understanding of what Brigham Young might have been talking about when touting controversial ideas about Adam's relationship to God!

[Anddenex]

10 hours ago, person0 said:

Or. . . it could be referencing a more complete understanding of what Brigham Young might have been talking about when touting controversial ideas about Adam's relationship to God!

You just had to go there

I am seeking to be subtle

[mordorbund]

16 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This is referencing

It hasn't been mention yet, but just to throw water on the oil fire.....

Has anyone read the JST for verse 38?

[Anddenex]

11 hours ago, mordorbund said:

It hasn't been mention yet, but just to throw water on the oil fire.....

Has anyone read the JST for verse 38?

"^cwhich" "c" = "who was formed of God, and the first man upon the earth."

"^dson" "d" = Moses 6:22; TG Man Physical Creation of.

For anybody wondering.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Anddenex