Repentance

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

He never did anything but that he was commanded to do so by his Father. 

Have we been commanded to be like and do as Christ did or have we not?

[Colirio]

17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Have we been commanded to be like and do as Christ did or have we not?

I submit that yes, we should do as Christ did and seek His Father's will concerning those things he would have us do. 

 

Speaking as someone who often puts his foot in his mouth, unless teaching is done in the Lord's way, it's not going to be effective anyway. 

 

D&C 42:14 And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.

 

D&C 50:17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.
21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Colirio said:

I submit that yes, we should do as Christ did and seek His Father's will concerning those things he would have us do. 

 

Speaking as someone who often puts his foot in his mouth, unless teaching is done in the Lord's way, it's not going to be effective anyway. 

 

D&C 42:14 And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.

 

D&C 50:17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.
21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

Do you believe putting one's foot in one's mouth is really the key to "darkness" and sin?

I don't believe it.

[Colirio]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Do you believe putting one's foot in one's mouth is really the key to "darkness" and sin?

I don't believe it.

Nope. 

 

Thats not not at all what I was saying. 

 

I have at times attempted to teach/preach/call to repent and have not sought the Lord's inspiration first. And as a result, it was simply not effective. 

 

At best, it was less effective than it could have been had I done so in the Lord's way. 

[person0]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:51 PM, CV75 said:

#5 would be reserved only for those possessing all the keys due to the damnation part, which goes way beyond a call to repentance and requires keys of the knowledge and power to say that in the name of God.

I disagree.  Once on my mission I boldly told an investigator to his face that if he continued his adulterous relationship and did not repent for what he had done against his wife, he would go to hell and be damned.  I know that the Spirit was with me as I bore witness to him, and I am absolutely confident in the truth and accuracy of that declaration.  Refusal to repent = damnation 100% of the time to those who are accountable for their own choices.

Edited March 6, 2018 by person0

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, person0 said:

I disagree.  Once on my mission I boldly told an investigator to his face that if he continued his adulterous relationship and did not repent for what he had done against his wife, he would go to hell and be damned.  I know that the Spirit was with me as I bore witness to him, and I am absolutely confident in the truth and accuracy of that declaration.  Refusal to repent = damnation 100% of the time to those who are accountable for their own choices.

Did it work? Did he stop his behavior? Curious, nothing more. 

[person0]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Did it work? Did he stop his behavior? Curious, nothing more. 

No or technically I don't know for sure.  I gave him that warning during our final visit.  He had decided to stop investigating the Church because he didn't want to give up his 'beautiful relationship' with his adulterous lover.  I asked him if his wife was aware (she lived in another country at the time), he admitted that she wasn't, then after a bit more discussion I gave him that warning and we left soon afterward.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, person0 said:

No or technically I don't know for sure.  I gave him that warning during our final visit.  He had decided to stop investigating the Church because he didn't want to give up his 'beautiful relationship' with his adulterous lover.  I asked him if his wife was aware (she lived in another country at the time), he admitted that she wasn't, then after a bit more discussion I gave him that warning and we left soon afterward.

I'm not sure how successful saying what you did would be if he wasn't already a member or a believer in God. Just so there is no confusion-I'm not saying I disagree with what you said. I also think his behavior would lead to damnation, but if you aren't a member or a believer in God, you probably don't care. 

[person0]

Just now, MormonGator said:

I'm not sure how successful saying what you did would be if he wasn't already a member or a believer in God. Just so there is no confusion-I'm not saying I disagree with what you said. I also think his behavior would lead to damnation, but if you aren't a member or a believer in God, you probably don't care. 

I agree with you.  In this case, he was raised Catholic and was aware he was committing a grievous sin.  He appeared to be trembling when I said that to him.  Personally, I'm not so sure I would even have been inspired to testify of that to him unless the Lord knew it would have an effect of some sort.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, person0 said:

I disagree.  Once on my mission I boldly told an investigator to his face that if he continued his adulterous relationship and did not repent for what he had done against his wife, he would go to hell and be damned.  I know that the Spirit was with me as I bore witness to him, and I am absolutely confident in the truth and accuracy of that declaration.  Refusal to repent = damnation 100% of the time to those who are accountable for their own choices.

#5 reads, “Telling someone they have sinned against G-d and will be dammed unless they have a change of heart.” You spoke of the man doing something against his wife. You also bore testimony of the principle that if the accountable do not repent, they are damned, but you did not warn him of exercising the keys of damnation in his behalf, which is something different and what I was referring to. And sometimes people say things, even correct things, with passion and even invoking the name of God, but not necessarily with the Spirit. So, I think you can agree with me just as I agree with you!

[Traveler]

13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Have we been commanded to be like and do as Christ did or have we not?

 

The question cannot be properly answered in the way that it is framed.  So, I believe the best answer at this place of our discussion is no; but with obvious exceptions.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Better check the JST on that one.

 

Now we must make a righteous judgment of the difference between a righteous judgment and unrighteous judgment.  I believe my statement stands that before we condemn someone there are two necessary elements. 

#1 That we have been ordained to a stewardship that requires a judge.  In other words that we have a calling to inform others what G-d has judged and determined for them – It is not a matter of our individual opinion in such a matter. (See D&C 84)   

#2.  That G-d has commanded us through the spirit and our stewardship to reveal something specific to an individual.

It is my understanding that we may, as Saints both seek and teach general principles as we have so learned them – but even then, it is my understanding that we should always seek the spirit to guide us as to what we should say.

I would like to say to you that in past discussions I have been a righteous example for you to follow – but we both know that would not be true.  I believe I have responded poorly in the past – for that I am both sorry and apologetic.  You add a great deal of insight to the forum.  I do not want to alter your contribution even though I have thought differently in some matters.

I have become convinced that anointed Saints should not find themselves disputing.  That Saints of G-d may have strong and passionate differences of view and opinion – but to create disputations among the Saints of G-d – even and especially when we are the one right – I have come to believe is an unrighteous judgment.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

On 3/2/2018 at 9:35 AM, Traveler said:

I am wondering – when should we call others to repentance?  Does stewardship have anything to do with such consideration?  Or should we just call it as we see it.  If anyone is doing something they shouldn’t is it proper to call them to repentance?

Elder Oaks has an answer for you.  Bold/italics/underlining mine:

“Judge Not” and Judging - By Elder Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles - Aug 1999 Ensign

Quote

In contrast to forbidding mortals to make final judgments, the scriptures require mortals to make what I will call “intermediate judgments.” These judgments are essential to the exercise of personal moral agency.
...
During His mortal ministry the Savior made and acted upon many intermediate judgments, such as when He told the Samaritan woman of her sinful life (see John 4:17–19), when He rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy (see Matt. 15:1–9; Matt. 23:1–33), and when He commented on the comparative merit of the offerings of the rich men and of the widow’s mites (see Mark 12:41–44).

Church leaders are specifically commanded to judge.
...
The Savior also commanded individuals to be judges, both of circumstances and of other people. 
...
On one occasion the Savior chided the people, “Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?” (Luke 12:57). On another occasion he said, “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

Quote

Let us consider some principles or ingredients that lead to a “righteous judgment.”

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire. 

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest. 

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. 

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. 

A fifth principle of a righteous intermediate judgment is that whenever possible we will refrain from judging people and only judge situations. 

Sixth, forgiveness is a companion principle to the commandment that in final judgments we judge not and in intermediate judgments we judge righteously. 

Seventh, a final ingredient or principle of a righteous judgment is that it will apply righteous standards. If we apply unrighteous standards, our judgment will be unrighteous. 

...

I love the words in Susan Evans McCloud’s familiar hymn:
Who am I to judge another
When I walk imperfectly?
In the quiet heart is hidden
Sorrow that the eye can’t see.
Who am I to judge another?
Lord, I would follow thee.

In one of the monthly General Authority fast and testimony meetings, I heard President James E. Faust say, “The older I get, the less judgmental I become.” That wise observation gives us a standard to live by in the matter of judgments. We should refrain from anything that seems to be a final judgment of any person, manifesting our determination to leave final judgments to the Lord, who alone has the capacity to judge.

In the intermediate judgments we must make, we should take care to judge righteously. We should seek the guidance of the Spirit in our decisions. We should limit our judgments to our own stewardships. Whenever possible we should refrain from judging people until we have an adequate knowledge of the facts. So far as possible, we should judge circumstances rather than people. In all our judgments we should apply righteous standards. And, in all of this we must remember the command to forgive.

 

 

It sounds to me like person0's experience is a good example of a powerful and righeous intermediate judgment.  

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by NeuroTypical