Are animals damned?

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we all see only what we are willing to see. And we wonder why Gods mysteries remain.

I trust that the Scribes and Pharisees felt the same way during Christ's mortal ministry. After all, they believed they had the Law and words of the then dead prophets (Torah). So, who was this young upstart named Jesus who proclaiming things divergent from the traditions of the fathers?

I can imagine them asking the living Christ, can you show me one scripture where it says, among many things, that adultery includes lusting in one's heart?

Sometimes people can become so cemented in their beliefs that they fail to recognize the Savior and Redeemer when he is in their presence, or his hand in matters when his chosen leaders are present for him.

Something to think about.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:19 AM, wenglund said:

I think there is a difference between disputations and reproving betimes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Regardless of the difference - It is most rare that someone does not take offence when anyone else disagrees with them.  It would seem that it is human nature to find offence when certain others even express their opinion.  In shorth it seems that anything a democrat says is taken in the spirit of “disputing” to a republican and vice versa.   I am convinced that we all should be able to openly express our opinions without degenerating to disputing. 

I would like to blame certain others on this forum – but then, I find myself crossing the fine line and having some delight in things I should not. 

It is may not seem all that evil to some but once even an amusing and entertaining daemon is set loose – they will ravage any possibility of friendship even if we can find again a way to later contain them.

 

The Traveler

[mordorbund]

On 3/21/2018 at 9:50 PM, Rob Osborn said:

 Im tryingvto show you, help you understand that regardless of how Joseph Smith viewed the various rewards or degrees of glory, he never, not once, ever used "damnation/damned" to describe any of those rewards or degrees of glory in heaven.

How about condemned?

On 3/21/2018 at 12:30 AM, Rob Osborn said:

99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.
            100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation;
            101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth. (D&C 88:99-101)

 

Those resurrected to a telestial glory ("heirs of salvation") are "found under condemnation".

[Rob Osborn]

On 3/22/2018 at 9:58 AM, wenglund said:

The temple endowment has undergone multiple changes since it was first revealed, as also the garment. Unlike you, the Church continues to gain new light and knowledge about the new and everlasting.covenant. Unlike you, the church continues to PROGRESS in its understanding of spiritual things, and this in accordance with the Plan of PROGRESSION. In other words, the church is not damned in its grasp of spiritual truths, but progressing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It has changed. What has been a constant though is the progression through the kingdoms. We have had that light and knowledge for a very long time. It has remained a constant. In time our doctrine we teach outside the temple will change and reflect the same doctrine we learn inside the temple. To say its perfect now, doesnt need changing is to deny facts.

[Rob Osborn]

59 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

How about condemned?

Those resurrected to a telestial glory ("heirs of salvation") are "found under condemnation".

They ate certainly found condemned "before" resurrection and judgement. Read a bit more and it speaks of perfecting tjose he saves. Thus, all those he saves, he saves from eternal condemnation.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It has changed. What has been a constant though is the progression through the kingdoms. We have had that light and knowledge for a very long time. It has remained a constant. In time our doctrine we teach outside the temple will change and reflect the same doctrine we learn inside the temple. To say its perfect now, doesnt need changing is to deny facts.

Just out of curiosity...if something needs changing, how do you draw the conclusion that it's not the temple that needs changing?

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Just out of curiosity...if something needs changing, how do you draw the conclusion that it's not the temple that needs changing?

From viewing all the evidence coupled with the principle of God revealing truth line upon line.

[Rob Osborn]

Certain principles that cannot be changed- they are eternal law. One must understand them in order to judge all doctrine. Heres a short list-

1. Repentance of all sins and baptism is required to be saved eternally from hell

2. All of Gods laws pertaining to salvation is for the purpose to advance us into the exact being he is.

3. Every person must accept and comply with all ordinances of the temple endowment in order to be saved eternally from hell.

4. There will be no sinners in any region of heaven, they will all be without spot.

5. Every person saved from hell will be found with their names written in the book of life

6. Every person God saves from hell will dwell with him in his kingdom as his sons and daughters.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

32 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

From viewing all the evidence coupled with the principle of God revealing truth line upon line.

I wonder how it is that our church leaders haven't drawn the same conclusion then. They must be uneducated buffoons. 

[Crash]

My understanding of the claims being raised here is that:

1. There is progression after souls are sent to the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms.

2. Our definition of damnation is wrong.

3. After the term of progression, all souls will either be in the Celestial Kingdom or Outer Darkness.

4. The Doctrine and Covenants and all church manuals are not in line with the Bible or the Book of Mormon. 

Here are my thoughts:

1. We do not believe in or teach of purgatory. After the final day of judgement, there is no progression outside of the Celestial Kingdom. All souls in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms will reside there for eternity. This has been revealed through modern-day revelation. The description of there being one heaven and one hell does not omit these modern-day revelations. The Book of Mormon also says that Jesus is both the Father and the Son, but we know through modern-day revelation that they are separate and light has been given to what the Book of Mormon was saying. 

2. In terms of damnation, all those who are cut off from the presence of the Lord are damned. They cannot progress. They will remember their sins forever, wallowed up in their grief forever. Thus, all souls outside of the Celestial Kingdom are damned. This is the "state of eternal misery and grief" and is not necessarily a place but rather a state of being.

3. There is no purgatory. That is a false doctrine to entice souls to put off the day of their repentance. Modern-day revelation has clearly revealed what happens in the afterlife. The idea that something is taught in the temple but contradicted outside of it is false.

4. All church manuals are written under the direction of the First Presidency. So, we either have a testimony that the Lord leads His church through them or we do not. No modern-day revelation omits the doctrines of the other standard works but rather they expand on the doctrines in them just as the BofM expands on the doctrines of the Bible. Furthermore, the last dispensation of the fullness of times also refers to all of the mysteries of heaven pertaining to salvation will be revealed, though they were not revealed in older times, at least not publicly. How many times is it written in the Book of Mormon that there were things that the prophets were commanded not to reveal? Today, however, all things pertaining to salvation have been revealed. 

Be careful about claiming doctrines that are unsupported by modern-day revelation and are taken out of context. This leads to apostasy. David O. MacKay said in his 90s that he was just beginning to understand the endowment ordinance. That's quite a humbling statement coming from a prophet of God. Be humble and seek the Lord's guidance just as President MacKay did. 

 

[Crash]

One thing I did not address and that's about animals being damned. It's simple, animals do not sin, so they cannot be damned.

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I wonder how it is that our church leaders haven't drawn the same conclusion then. They must be uneducated buffoons. 

Well, we certainly dont know what they really know. They are both smart and wise.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Crash said:

One thing I did not address and that's about animals being damned. It's simple, animals do not sin, so they cannot be damned.

Right. But....can animals eternally progress? I think not. Not in the sense we understand eternal progression.

I don't think the damned/saved paradigm fits animals. They become what they should. The are not children of God with the potential to become like Him. They are creations of His and will become what He means them to...whatever that is.

Of course I could be wrong. But.......

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we certainly dont know what they really know. They are both smart and wise.

You seem to be implying they are smartly and wisely lying to us.

[Crash]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Right. But....can animals eternally progress? I think not. Not in the sense we understand eternal progression.

I don't think the damned/saved paradigm fits animals. They become what they should. The are not children of God with the potential to become like Him. They are creations of His and will become what He means them to...whatever that is.

Of course I could be wrong. But.......

True, they do not progress but the question was if they will be damned. Clearly, they will not.

It's a good question in terms of thinking about what they will be used for in the afterlife. Hunting and fishing, I hope. 

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

It has changed. What has been a constant though is the progression through the kingdoms. We have had that light and knowledge for a very long time. It has remained a constant. In time our doctrine we teach outside the temple will change and reflect the same doctrine we learn inside the temple. To say its perfect now, doesnt need changing is to deny facts.

If so, then it is good that the Lord has you to lead the way on earth. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Right. But....can animals eternally progress? I think not. Not in the sense we understand eternal progression.

I don't think the damned/saved paradigm fits animals. They become what they should. The are not children of God with the potential to become like Him. They are creations of His and will become what He means them to...whatever that is.

Of course I could be wrong. But.......

I agree. As God commanded, each species will reproduce (and thus progress) after their own kind. They each will fill the measure of their own creation. They will not fill the  measure of other creations. Hence, celestial dogs will not become celestial Gods--though this is pure speculation on my part, and not worth much.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

Edited March 23, 2018 by wenglund

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, changed said:

Do you believe g-D is loving enough to place each of His children into the right educational environments?  Do you thonk g-D is a good teacher?  Careful. I am baring you.

 

You're baring me?

Let's see. Unknown and complicated. Obviously.

There. I answered your questions. Willing to expand if you want. Are you going to answer mine?

Edited March 23, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You seem to be implying they are smartly and wisely lying to us.

No, but I do find it of interest that a prophet of the Lord did address at a recent general conference that we are now living in the telestial kingdom. Progress happens slowly. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Do you believe g-d is loving enough to place each of His children into the right educational environments?  Do you think g-d is a good teacher?  Careful. I am baiting you.

edited from phone txting version.

I hope that g-d and Christ are powerful enough to teach and change all of their children.  Not save us from sin - but educate everyone properly so that we can all love what is good.  

I question the "refining" that the majority of the people here on earth receive - all that lived through the dark ages, all that live in oppressive regimes.  Most of the atheists I know reject g-d  because they were not "refined" by the abuse they received in life.

1/3 did not make it to earth, so already g-d has a grade of 66%, D+... and of the ones who come to earth, only a "small flock" are in agreement with g-d by the end of it?  let's see, LDS church currently makes up only 1.7% of the world's population soo... about a 1.7% pass rate going on?  or less - as not all Mormons are saved?

What would happen to a school here on Earth who only passed 1% of its kids, and left the other 99% to be raped/starved/plagued with disease - and then cast into eternal darkness?  ... would you call that a great plan of salvation?  Does not sound like salvation to me.

 

I think that pretty much 99% or slightly higher will become sons of god and make it to Heavenly Fathers celestial Kingdom- the other 1% or less will become sons of perdition. So, a pretty high success rate. I think it bodes well with this scripture-

25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord;
            26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen. (Helaman 12:25-26)

[The Folk Prophet]

49 minutes ago, changed said:

Either Christians who believe in outer darkness / hell have it wrong, or g-d is an evil hypocritical monster.  

What the?

What on earth is wrong with you? Are you LDS or not?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Do you believe g-d is loving enough to place each of His children into the right educational environments?  Do you think g-d is a good teacher?  Careful. I am baiting you.

edited from phone txting version.

I hope that g-d and Christ are powerful enough to teach and change all of their children.  Not save us from sin - but educate everyone properly so that we can all love what is good.  

I question the "refining" that the majority of the people here on earth receive - all that lived through the dark ages, all that live in oppressive regimes.  Most of the atheists I know reject g-d  because they were not "refined" by the abuse they received in life.

1/3 did not make it to earth, so already g-d has a grade of 66%, D+... and of the ones who come to earth, only a "small flock" are in agreement with g-d by the end of it?  let's see, LDS church currently makes up only 1.7% of the world's population soo... about a 1.7% pass rate going on?  or less - as not all Mormons are saved?

So if I fail my class it's my teacher's fault? Man...I would have loved that philosophy in high-school.

1 hour ago, changed said:

What would happen to a school here on Earth who only passed 1% of its kids, and left the other 99% to be raped/starved/plagued with disease - and then cast into eternal darkness?  ... would you call that a great plan of salvation?  Does not sound like salvation to me.

You clearly have no concept of the principles of agency and accountability at all.

Edited March 23, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Crash said:

In terms of damnation, all those who are cut off from the presence of the Lord are damned. They cannot progress. They will remember their sins forever, wallowed up in their grief forever. Thus, all souls outside of the Celestial Kingdom are damned. This is the "state of eternal misery and grief" and is not necessarily a place but rather a state of being.

I dont agree with this. Can you give a scripture that shows those gaining salvation in Gods kingdom are in an eternal state of misery?

[wenglund]

45 minutes ago, changed said:

Either Christians who believe in outer darkness / hell have it wrong, or g-d is an evil hypocritical monster.  

I think that those who believe this way should share a room with Saddam Hussein, Kim Jung-un. Jack the Ripper, an infamous pedophile and the like during the early part of the afterlife, or at least until they get the point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, changed said:

So you do not believe a third were already cast away?

I do believe they were already cast away. I was speaking of those who came to earth.