Are animals damned?

[Traveler]

I forget the philosopher and critic of Christians – but one of his statements would seem to apply here.  In essence he stated that Christians (in this particular case Mormons) are obsessed with heaven.  They argue about who will qualify to be there – they dream that they will be happier there someday in some distant future.  Yet, they have no clue what they will do if they ever actually get there.  And so they are like geese that waddle around in the mud day after day.  Then once a week – on Sunday they get together and talk about flying.   Then they are finished with talking about flying they waddle off in the mud - never even attempt to fly.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I forget the philosopher and critic of Christians – but one of his statements would seem to apply here.  In essence he stated that Christians (in this particular case Mormons) are obsessed with heaven.  They argue about who will qualify to be there – they dream that they will be happier there someday in some distant future.  Yet, they have no clue what they will do if they ever actually get there.  And so they are like geese that waddle around in the mud day after day.  Then once a week – on Sunday they get together and talk about flying.   Then they are finished with talking about flying they waddle off in the mud - never even attempt to fly.

 

The Traveler

Wow, unbelievably true!

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I forget the philosopher and critic of Christians – but one of his statements would seem to apply here.  In essence he stated that Christians (in this particular case Mormons) are obsessed with heaven.  They argue about who will qualify to be there – they dream that they will be happier there someday in some distant future.  Yet, they have no clue what they will do if they ever actually get there.  And so they are like geese that waddle around in the mud day after day.  Then once a week – on Sunday they get together and talk about flying.   Then they are finished with talking about flying they waddle off in the mud - never even attempt to fly.

 

The Traveler

Now, let's not be cryptic here now Mr. The Traveler. Who, exactly, are you suggesting is waddling in the mud?

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Now, let's not be cryptic here now Mr. The Traveler. Who, exactly, are you suggesting is waddling in the mud?

I am guessing that it is me even though I am more of a turkey than a goose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

Ive been flying for some time watching what appears to be my fellow geese slopping around in the mud...

[Crash]

[wenglund]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ive been flying for some time watching what appears to be my fellow geese slopping around in the mud...

Ground Control to Major Rob...

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 25, 2018 by wenglund

[askandanswer]

So back to the OP

Doctrine and Covenants 88

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37  And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38  And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

These verses suggest to me that law is universal – that everything and everywhere and everybody exist in a situation that is governed by law. I submit that this extends to animals

2 Nephi 9:25  Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

27  But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

These verses suggest to me that where there is a law given, and where that law is transgressed, there is a consequence.

In response to the possibility that these principles only apply to people, I point to the Earth (1), the fig tree (2) and the serpent as examples of non-humans that seem to have been affected as a result of the operation of the scriptures quoted above.

1)      The Earth D&C 88 25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—26  Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it. (Obedience by a non-human to the law, resulting in a beneficial consequence)

2)      The fig tree Matthew 21: 19  And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever.  And presently the fig tree withered away and the serpent (A punishment given to a non-human, possibly for disobedience to a law, otherwise we are faced with the quandary of Christ inflicting a punishment on something innocent)

3)      The serpent Genesis 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: (Disobedience by a non-human to a law resulting in an unfortunate consequence)

 

So it seems to be as if there is at least some reason to consider that animals are subject to law and subject to consequences if they abide by or ignore the law.

However, Moroni 8:22, says “they that are without the law” are saved through the atonement of Christ, and possibly animals fall into this category.

22  For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law.  For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

So back to the OP

Doctrine and Covenants 88

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37  And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38  And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

These verses suggest to me that law is universal – that everything and everywhere and everybody exist in a situation that is governed by law. I submit that this extends to animals

2 Nephi 9:25  Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

27  But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

These verses suggest to me that where there is a law given, and where that law is transgressed, there is a consequence.

In response to the possibility that these principles only apply to people, I point to the Earth (1), the fig tree (2) and the serpent as examples of non-humans that seem to have been affected as a result of the operation of the scriptures quoted above.

1)      The Earth D&C 88 25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—26  Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it. (Obedience by a non-human to the law, resulting in a beneficial consequence)

2)      The fig tree Matthew 21: 19  And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever.  And presently the fig tree withered away and the serpent (A punishment given to a non-human, possibly for disobedience to a law, otherwise we are faced with the quandary of Christ inflicting a punishment on something innocent)

3)      The serpent Genesis 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: (Disobedience by a non-human to a law resulting in an unfortunate consequence)

 

So it seems to be as if there is at least some reason to consider that animals are subject to law and subject to consequences if they abide by or ignore the law.

However, Moroni 8:22, says “they that are without the law” are saved through the atonement of Christ, and possibly animals fall into this category.

22  For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law.  For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

I agree. I think it would be absurd that animals could be thought of sinning. Just a general lack of intelligence on the animals part- they are kind of like children outside the law.

[Traveler]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 6:26 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Now, let's not be cryptic here now Mr. The Traveler. Who, exactly, are you suggesting is waddling in the mud?

 

When Jesus met with his apostles for Passover he indicated that there was in the inner circle of Apostles one that would betray him.  Perhaps we can learn something here.  A careful consideration of what is written in scripture we can learn what was said next; Peter with great wisdom and inspiration leaned over to John and said, “I’ll bet it is Judas, he has been wrong about a few doctrinally points lately – I should call him out and tell him to repent.”  Obviously, this is exactly what Jesus intends for his true followers to think and do?

If accused in a court of law of being a disciple of Christ – who, according to actual evidence and without any shadow of doubt, would be convicted?  I am quite sure I could get off for “good behavior”.  I am thinking others could get off with an insanity plea.  

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

When Jesus met with his apostles for Passover he indicated that there was in the inner circle of Apostles one that would betray him.  Perhaps we can learn something here.  A careful consideration of what is written in scripture we can learn what was said next; Peter with great wisdom and inspiration leaned over to John and said, “I’ll bet it is Judas, he has been wrong about a few doctrinally points lately – I should call him out and tell him to repent.”  Obviously, this is exactly what Jesus intends for his true followers to think and do?

If accused in a court of law of being a disciple of Christ – who, according to actual evidence and without any shadow of doubt, would be convicted?  I am quite sure I could get off for “good behavior”.  I am thinking others could get off with an insanity plea.  

Someone is deflecting now.

Shall we stay on point re the waddling in the mud idea?

[Traveler]

32 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Someone is deflecting now.

Shall we stay on point re the waddling in the mud idea?

Have you ever been involved in a crab fest?  Crabs are interesting characters – it does not matter what trap carbs are place into before cooking them – if there is more than one – any effort one makes to escape; the nature of crabs will cause the other(s) to pull the one escaping back into the trap.

How can you and I saty on point without being a little craby about the point?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Have you ever been involved in a crab fest?  Crabs are interesting characters – it does not matter what trap carbs are place into before cooking them – if there is more than one – any effort one makes to escape; the nature of crabs will cause the other(s) to pull the one escaping back into the trap.

How can you and I saty on point without being a little craby about the point?

No idea what you're talking about. I want to address this whole "wallowing in  mud" idea. I want you to speak plainly and say what you actually mean so we can discuss it. As it stands, it seems like either a random, meaningless interjection, or else the implication seems to be that you've judged either Rob, myself, or someone else involved in the discussion, as being Sunday only Mormons who talk about heavenly things but are unconcerned with living them. That some or all of us are only interested in talk. If this is your judgement, I'd like to know where you get that idea from. Moreover, even if you weren't assuming without any actual knowledge what we are engaged or not engaged in outside "discussions" on a "discussion forum", which specific actions are you presuming qualify any of us as "waddling in the mud", and conversely, which actions would count as "flying" for us geese? Or is your point merely a random philosophical interjection with no actual relation to the discussion at hand?

Edited March 26, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

Alright...resurrection is a principle of the gospel...so.... (of course some things are better off left dead...but....)

So...scripture study this morning was 2 Nephi 9. A few things I noted:

vs 24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

vs 34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

vs 36 Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.

D&C 76 is explicit about those who will be "saved" to the telestial kingdom though in vs 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Lest any try and claim that the verses in 2 Nephi 9 are referring to the hell of Spirit Prison before the Resurrection and judgment, vs 12-14 specify that we're talking about after that "hell" has delivered up its dead and we stand before the Savior to be judged with a perfect knowledge of all our guilt.

And vs 38-39 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins. O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.

What is laid out between 2 Nephi 9 and D&C 76 is pretty plain. If Rob is right, there can logically be no Telestial or Terrestrial at all, not temporarily or otherwise. The liars cannot be consigned to both outer darkness and "saved" to the Telestial kingdom.

vs 13-24 quoted in full here make it plain. When we are delivered from prison we stand before God and if we are guilty of sin, if we haven't endured to the end, if we are not righteous, if we have not endured the crosses of the world, if we do not have perfect faith in Christ, we cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God. So either one must accept that the Telestial Kingdom doesn't count as part of being "saved in the the Kingdom of God" here, or one must accept that all liars, whoremongers, etc., will go to outer darkness, which is contrary to the plain teaching in D&C 76.

13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.

16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.

17 O the greatness and the justice of our God! For he executeth all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his law must be fulfilled.

18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever.

19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knowethall things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

22 And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

And since I'm in 2 Nephi 9 I'll quote this from vs 28 also: O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise

 

[Rob Osborn]

20 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Alright...resurrection is a principle of the gospel...so.... (of course some things are better off left dead...but....)

So...scripture study this morning was 2 Nephi 9. A few things I noted:

vs 24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

vs 34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

vs 36 Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.

D&C 76 is explicit about those who will be "saved" to the telestial kingdom though in vs 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Lest any try and claim that the verses in 2 Nephi 9 are referring to the hell of Spirit Prison before the Resurrection and judgment, vs 12-14 specify that we're talking about after that "hell" has delivered up its dead and we stand before the Savior to be judged with a perfect knowledge of all our guilt.

And vs 38-39 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins. O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.

What is laid out between 2 Nephi 9 and D&C 76 is pretty plain. If Rob is right, there can logically be no Telestial or Terrestrial at all, not temporarily or otherwise. The liars cannot be consigned to both outer darkness and "saved" to the Telestial kingdom.

vs 13-24 quoted in full here make it plain. When we are delivered from prison we stand before God and if we are guilty of sin, if we haven't endured to the end, if we are not righteous, if we have not endured the crosses of the world, if we do not have perfect faith in Christ, we cannot be saved in the Kingdom of God. So either one must accept that the Telestial Kingdom doesn't count as part of being "saved in the the Kingdom of God" here, or one must accept that all liars, whoremongers, etc., will go to outer darkness, which is contrary to the plain teaching in D&C 76.

13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.

16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.

17 O the greatness and the justice of our God! For he executeth all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his law must be fulfilled.

18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever.

19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knowethall things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

22 And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

And since I'm in 2 Nephi 9 I'll quote this from vs 28 also: O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise

 

You are starting to understand the absolute truths of the Book of Mormon and how understansing its text allows other scriptures to have meaning. Its what I have patiently been trying to show all along. Follow along with me here and I will show you a mystery-

2 Nephi 9 is an absolute gem. Jacob describes the type of person who is saved at the great last day of judgment which comes after the millennium when all are resurrected and brought forth to be judged. At that point only one type of person is saved. That person is one who has been cleansed of all his sins through the blood of the Lamb by obedience to the gospel. Everyone must repent and be baptized or they will, and must, be condemned to the eternal hell with the devil and his angels.

That is absolutely truth. There is no way around that principle. Thus, when reading and trying to understand section 76, one must realize and keep that in mind. So now, who are these liars, whoremongers, etc, spoken of in verse 103? Is there a contradiction? Absolutely not! Remember earlier when I kept asking why Joseph Smith saw the sons of perdition in the telestial world and no one would answer? Verse 103, if you cross reference it, is a specified group who suffer the second death- the lake of fire and brimstone in hell. But, and this is the master clue, the second death doesnt happen until after all have been resurrected and brought forth for judgment at the end of the millennium. According to the Book of Mormon and D&C only the sons of perdition take part in the second death. Therefore, why does Joseph Smith see the sons of perdition in the telestial world? Its because Joseph Smith did not realize "at that time" that the angel was trying to show Joseph Smith that in order to be saved one had to progress through several kingdoms until he got to the state where he became perfected, purified and cleansed from all sin. Some of those Joseph Smith saw in the vision were indeed ones who would not be saved such as those mentioned in verse 103.

The truth is, according to a very careful reading of section 76, Christ only saves the celestial as described in verses 50-70. Those are the only ones who qualify for salvation. Everyone else must be thrust down to hell. How is it we know this? Because verses 50-70 is the testimony of those spoken of earlier in verses 40-43

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us-

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
            42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
            
            43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Read those scriptures 10 times and uncover the mysteries in layer there. It specifically lays out who Christ saves (everyone except sons of perdition), how they are saved (through the gospel), and that all are cleansed. Now, jump down to verse 50 as its the actual testimony concerning "all" those Christ saves he just spoke of in verses 40-43.

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just-

Verses 50-70 then proceed to show the only type of person Christ can save- of who they become and are at the judgment bar. After this the vision shows Joseph Smith how men either get to that point through progression from our earth to the terrestrial earth and finally to the celestial or are not saved and come forth to be condemned to hell. How do we know this? Jump to verse 102-

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

Read this one several times. This scripture only speaks of two groups- those caught up unto the church of the Firstborn and those not gathered up to be received there. These ones spoken of that arent gathered up unto the cloud, as I have explained verse 103, are sons of perdition. The verse states that everyone else, except for these, are gathered up unto the church of the Firstborn. And who are the members of the church of the Firstborn? The celestial heirs-

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 76:54)

Section 76 has to be peeled in layers like this or one will fail to see the mystery and not understand the gospel.

Thus, its no wonder then that the parable of tge wheat and the tares, as carried over from Christs ministry into latter day times only shows two outcomes for everyone in the end which thus proves 2 Nephi 9 is perfectly correct. In the end, those whose names arent recorded in the temple (the "garners" in the parable) through obedience to the House of the Lord (the holy temple and its saving ordinances and covenents) are the tares who suffer the second death in hell. Read it-

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
            66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned. (D&C 101:65-66)

This is speaking of that same period in time as described in 2 Nephi 9. Its after the millennium, after all the temple work is completed for the dead and all the saved have their names recorded there to be crowned with celestial glory. The "only" other group besides these are the "tares" and they are the sons of perdition and are burned in the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.

Theres a lot to dissect there. I will or can give a myriad of supporting scriptures to these truths.

[The Folk Prophet]

39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Will you walk into my parlour?
'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.

 

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

Thats not my quote. Regardless, he who has eyes to see will see, he who has ears to hear will hear.

[Traveler]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:48 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

No idea what you're talking about. I want to address this whole "wallowing in  mud" idea. I want you to speak plainly and say what you actually mean so we can discuss it. As it stands, it seems like either a random, meaningless interjection, or else the implication seems to be that you've judged either Rob, myself, or someone else involved in the discussion, as being Sunday only Mormons who talk about heavenly things but are unconcerned with living them. That some or all of us are only interested in talk. If this is your judgement, I'd like to know where you get that idea from. Moreover, even if you weren't assuming without any actual knowledge what we are engaged or not engaged in outside "discussions" on a "discussion forum", which specific actions are you presuming qualify any of us as "waddling in the mud", and conversely, which actions would count as "flying" for us geese? Or is your point merely a random philosophical interjection with no actual relation to the discussion at hand?

 

I have been somewhat conflicted about responding to your question.  There is an old saying that the devil is in the details.  Sometimes I think it most difficult to be specific with details without contributing to the “walling around in the mud”.   

With all this in mind I would point you (and others) to 3Nephi Chapter 11.  Then starting with verse 28 – I believe that Jesus takes up this issue of being stuck – or walking around in the mud – However, rather than calling it “walking around in the mud” - he references this condition as “disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine”.

Perhaps a short story may have some application.  A few years ago, I had to drive into work (I prefer ridding my bicycle – but this particular day I had do drive in).  When I drive I like to think of myself and a careful driver and somewhat better than most.  But on this particular day I was cut off by a car cutting into my lane forcing me to break hard to avoid an accident.  I was a little unhappy but thought to let it pass.  As I observed the car then switched lanes again and within a few blocks the car cut me off again causing me to break hard to avoid an accident.  This angered me and I decided to communicate to the driver that they were ticking me (and other drivers) off.

I adopted an aggressive posture in my driving to catch up to the car in the other lake so I could indicate by some gesture my displeasure.  It was most difficult and between the two of us I am sure that we were creating greater danger for everyone else.  Finely I pulled up alongside the other car to get the attention of the driver.  As the other driver turned and we made eye contact – I realized it was my Stake President whom I greatly respect and is also a close friend.  As they turned I simply smiled and waved back feeling rather foolish for my aggressive behavior.  Later we had a good laugh about this incident and I have come to realize that I treat others differently according to my love of them.

Sometimes I think the internet is too impersonal.  That because we do not know enough about those we converse with – we tend to dispute too easily.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

On 3/27/2018 at 10:18 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

What is laid out between 2 Nephi 9 and D&C 76 is pretty plain. If Rob is right, there can logically be no Telestial or Terrestrial at all, not temporarily or otherwise. The liars cannot be consigned to both outer darkness and "saved" to the Telestial kingdom.

"If Rob is right, there can logically be no Telestial or Terrestrial worlds of glory the saved go to after resurrection and judgment. The liars cannot be consigned to both outer darkness and "saved" to the Celestial kingdom."

There, fixed it.

Either the Book of Mormon is dead wrong, or, our interpretation of section 76 is dead wrong. Its one or the other.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

However, rather than calling it “walking around in the mud” - he references this condition as “disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine”.

If this is your view, then what are you doing here in the "mud"?

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Sometimes I think the internet is too impersonal.  That because we do not know enough about those we converse with – we tend to dispute too easily.

Absolutely agree. Thanks for the reminder.

That being said:

I believe that Jesus's teaching requires us to think about what he really meant. He -- God -- Jehovah -- has literally commanded His servants to fight with and kill others at time. What He meant, I believe, is that we all come to Him and embrace His teachings, His truths, His ways, His plan, His methods, His principles, and His doctrine -- and by that means we have no disputations. I don't believe for a second that He meant we need to get along with every idiot we come across no matter how preposterous their position, or that we should never raise a contrary voice when someone is out there publicly preaching pernicious principles.

Yes, the methods matter. But the idea that anytime someone tries to preach blatantly false evil "doctrine" we should just shut up, smile, and nod pleasantly or we're breaking Jesus's commandments does not ring true to me.

In person or online -- someone who tries to promote the idea that the three degrees of glory is being taught wrong by the church and that the prophets and apostles are leading us astray is going to hear my contradicting view on the matter.

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If this is your view, then what are you doing here in the "mud"?

Absolutely agree. Thanks for the reminder.

That being said:

I believe that Jesus's teaching requires us to think about what he really meant. He -- God -- Jehovah -- has literally commanded His servants to fight with and kill others at time. What He meant, I believe, is that we all come to Him and embrace His teachings, His truths, His ways, His plan, His methods, His principles, and His doctrine -- and by that means we have no disputations. I don't believe for a second that He meant we need to get along with every idiot we come across no matter how preposterous their position, or that we should never raise a contrary voice when someone is out there publicly preaching pernicious principles.

Yes, the methods matter. But the idea that anytime someone tries to preach blatantly false evil "doctrine" we should just shut up, smile, and nod pleasantly or we're breaking Jesus's commandments does not ring true to me.

In person or online -- someone who tries to promote the idea that the three degrees of glory is being taught wrong by the church and that the prophets and apostles are leading us astray is going to hear my contradicting view on the matter.

You are just wrong, so wrong. Its no wonder you cant get out of the mud to fly.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 3/24/2018 at 4:58 PM, Traveler said:

I forget the philosopher and critic of Christians – but one of his statements would seem to apply here.  In essence he stated that Christians (in this particular case Mormons) are obsessed with heaven.  They argue about who will qualify to be there – they dream that they will be happier there someday in some distant future.  Yet, they have no clue what they will do if they ever actually get there.  And so they are like geese that waddle around in the mud day after day.  Then once a week – on Sunday they get together and talk about flying.   Then they are finished with talking about flying they waddle off in the mud - never even attempt to fly.

In addition to the previous response where I point out how I do not agree with you on the value of what you believe are "disputations":

The implication seems to be that you are suggesting that anyone on this forum or similar who don't fully agree on any given matter are failing to fly.

I wonder how it is that you assume that the discussions on this forum amount to the bulk of said's person's life. Even someone who posts often is doing it between their actual life actions. As in their job, their families, their callings, etc.

So someone works hard at their job, is honest in their dealings, supporting their family, etc. At home spends quality time with their families, teaches them the gospel, etc., At church faithfully fulfills their callings, both on Sunday and during the week, does their home/visiting teaching, goes to the service projects, reaches out to their neighbors, etc., Above all said person daily studies their scriptures, prays, ponders, attends the temple frequently, makes good efforts towards being involved with family history, and basically does all they can to faithfully do their duty and be obedient. But you feel comfortable assessing, not having the vaguest idea about this person's actual life, that said person must be wallowing in the mud and failing to fly because they spend some of their free time on this forum making good faith efforts to defend the church, the gospel, and their God?

[Rob Osborn]

One thing I think the traveler is saying is that the tone we bite back and forth with defeats the purpose as it becomes impersonal by not knowing each other. Its a genuine lack of respect towards each other as testified by the condescending nature and tone of the back and forth texts.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If this is your view, then what are you doing here in the "mud"?

Absolutely agree. Thanks for the reminder.

That being said:

I believe that Jesus's teaching requires us to think about what he really meant. He -- God -- Jehovah -- has literally commanded His servants to fight with and kill others at time. What He meant, I believe, is that we all come to Him and embrace His teachings, His truths, His ways, His plan, His methods, His principles, and His doctrine -- and by that means we have no disputations. I don't believe for a second that He meant we need to get along with every idiot we come across no matter how preposterous their position, or that we should never raise a contrary voice when someone is out there publicly preaching pernicious principles.

Yes, the methods matter. But the idea that anytime someone tries to preach blatantly false evil "doctrine" we should just shut up, smile, and nod pleasantly or we're breaking Jesus's commandments does not ring true to me.

In person or online -- someone who tries to promote the idea that the three degrees of glory is being taught wrong by the church and that the prophets and apostles are leading us astray is going to hear my contradicting view on the matter.

 

I will mention a few things that I think I have learned.  I wish I was a better example but I have often been involved in an overfly of a target.  I apologize for not being a better example of even what I claim to believe.  But here are some thoughts.

I agree that there are circumstances where we are commanded to take another’s life.  Having served in the military I personally faced this reality when I received orders that would take me into combat.  However, these kinds of things are both rare and exceptions.  I believe that the commandment to love others as ourselves is a commandment to get along with idiots.  This is very hard for me – but I believe Jesus expects us to try.

Without exceptions I think every individual should speak for themselves as to what they believe and seldom should anyone take it upon themselves to speak for others and their beliefs – especially when someone has the power to do it themselves.  Of course, there are exceptions but when we speak for others it should not be something we assume.  I should very seldom assume to speak for you – you can certainly speak for yourself.  I should never try to tell you what you believe.  Though we can all speak for ourselves – and should speak our opinions – G-d is capable as well as willing to speak to anyone that will listen concerning his doctrine.  We can all speak to our own understand and opinion concerning the things G-d reveals.   But I have come to believe that he can speak himself better than any of us can concerning his doctrine.  I have a hard time thinking anyone can speak better than he can concerning his doctrine.

If someone misrepresents things I have said – I believe I have every right to argue with them as the expert in what I believe.  There are two things I have learned if someone has screwed up what Jesus has taught – First it is most unlikely I will convince them of what is correct.  And two – Jesus speaks to all that will listen – if they are not listening to Jesus they most certainly will not listen to me.

The best I can do is try to understand how they came to the conclusion that is so different than mine.  But it is also my experience that very few will explain an illogical conclusion.  Rather they will get upset.  Usually if someone is upset with questions – I either disengage or look for another opportunity to validate my understanding of their conclusions.

I, myself, am like Nephi, I do better conversing in person than writing.   I would like to improve my writing abilities and for this reason I post – but it appears to me that most do not understand what I write.  - or at least as well as I think they should.

 

The Traveler

Edited March 28, 2018 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

One thing I think the traveler is saying is that the tone we bite back and forth with defeats the purpose as it becomes impersonal by not knowing each other. Its a genuine lack of respect towards each other as testified by the condescending nature and tone of the back and forth texts.

My lack of respect is for your view. From what else I know of you from other posts, you are a good man, and mostly supportive of gospel principles and righteousness. Your view on this matter is egregious and will lead to harm and despair for you and for any others you persuade because it centers on the debased premise that the church and the living prophets and apostles are wrong -- at best confused and at worst bumbling nincompoops. You stand on your virtual Rameumpton proclaiming how you fly while everyone else is lost in the mud, mocking and showing scorn for the concepts of humility and the need to trust in and follow our living prophets' and apostles' teachings and guidance. I make no apology for my approach to cutting that view down and showing its evil nature. It is abhorrent. My tone and condescension towards that view is intentional. Your view qualifies for it. I am boldly calling out an evil view -- the view that we should abandon the teachings of our church in favor of our own personal interpretations of the scriptures. My purpose is not to convince you. You, on this matter, are a stubborn, blind, foolish lost cause, and will remain so until you accept the importance, right, power, authority and means whereby the Lord delivers His truth through our living prophets and apostles. But as for others who might be swayed by the deceptive and pleasing-to-the-carnal mind idea that their own intelligence and ability to work out matters is superior to the teachings of our living prophets and apostles that you are promoting -- there is, perhaps, some hope for them.

Edited March 28, 2018 by The Folk Prophet