Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 14 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/11.23?lang=eng&clang=eng#p22 Couldnt find on eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: It's funny, actually. @Rob Osborn demands that I use scripture to prove a definition or meaning of a word, meanwhile claiming that the word means something else that cannot be proven scriptural any better. Scriptures don't typically define words for us. Moreover, words are obviously, constantly, used differently in different contexts. Sure. Once can associate damnation with dwelling in hell. (Just as one can associate loss of eternal progression with dwelling in hell). One can also associate, quite easily I might add, damnation with loss of eternal progression, not returning to dwell with the father, etc., etc. The idea of proving what a word means or doesn't mean using the scriptures is so much nonsense. Reminds me of my Jr. High school days when we'd get together at lunch with the Jehovah's Witness buddies of ours and debate the Bible and what things "really" meant. Very useful. Everyone successfully proved to themselves that their rendering of the word's meanings was the correct one while the others were just being daft. There's a reason we have living prophets and apostles. So, with all the myriad of scriptures defining damnation as condemnation to hell, you are saying the scriptures doesnt define it? Hum...thats strange. Why dont we just get rid of the scriptures then if they dont define anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: So, with all the myriad of scriptures defining damnation as condemnation to hell, you are saying the scriptures doesnt define it? Show me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said: Show me. Sure- 23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell. (D&C 121:23) 4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. (Mormon 9:4) Edited March 14, 2018 by Rob Osborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Sure- 23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell. (D&C 121:23) 4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. (Mormon 9:4) I don't see any definitions there. I see associations. Just as I said. Here's some others: D&C 84:74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am. And explain this: 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. How can there be a "greater" damnation is damnation is just "hell". There must be a lesser damnation if there is a greater one. And: D&C 132 4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. And the real kicker, explained in black and white, as clear as can be for any who wish to see and understand, verses 19-27 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murderwhereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. 23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. 24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law. 25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law. 26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. 27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. The teaching is pretty plain here. Salvation unto exaltation by abiding by the law of God is directly converse to damnation by not entering God's glory by failing to abide by God's law. "Hell" is uses entirely metaphorically in every usage. There is not literal hell as a place. It is a metaphorical state of damnation. In that regard, sure -- you're right. But only metaphorically. Literally, damnation is the state of being stopped. Being, literally, damned from eternal progression. That this is metaphorically a state of some type of "hell" is reasonable, because anything but a fullness of joy is a state of partial lack of joy -- and part of partial misery -- which is what the metaphorical idea of hell represents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I don't see any definitions there. I see associations. Just as I said. Here's some others: D&C 84:74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am. And explain this: 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. How can there be a "greater" damnation is damnation is just "hell". There must be a lesser damnation if there is a greater one. And: D&C 132 4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. And the real kicker, explained in black and white, as clear as can be for any who wish to see and understand, verses 19-27 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murderwhereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. 23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. 24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law. 25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law. 26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. 27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. The teaching is pretty plain here. Salvation unto exaltation by abiding by the law of God is directly converse to damnation by not entering God's glory by failing to abide by God's law. "Hell" is uses entirely metaphorically in every usage. There is not literal hell as a place. It is a metaphorical state of damnation. In that regard, sure -- you're right. But only metaphorically. Literally, damnation is the state of being stopped. Being, literally, damned from eternal progression. That this is metaphorically a state of some type of "hell" is reasonable, because anything but a fullness of joy is a state of partial lack of joy -- and part of partial misery -- which is what the metaphorical idea of hell represents. All easily explained. D&C 84 explains that if one doesnt repent and get baptized they are damned (condemned to hell) and do not get to go into any of the mansions of the Fathers kingdom where Christ and God dwell. The "greater damnation" means that one can be sentenced to a longer duration in hell than for others which will be a lesser time. This is the same as a prison sentence- some receive a greater sentence than others. D&C 132 is easily explained in that if one enters into and makes covenants and then not abide in that covenant then he gets damned after he is dead (condemned to hell) until the day of his or her redemption. It even says that. Hell is a literal place where the wicked are. Edited March 14, 2018 by Rob Osborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said: All easily explained. As is the use of "hell" in association with damnation. Easily explained. Like I said, I'm not going to argue with who's interpretation of the scriptures is more valid -- yours or the church's -- because there's nothing to argue. I will trust the church's view over yours and hope and pray that others do as well. As to your claiming your intelligent analysis is more valid than mine......................................well......we could have an intelligence competition I suppose. Let's say, just for fun, that you whipped me at it. Wouldn't matter a whit. I'd still trust the church's teachings over yours. As for convincing you -- that's not my objective. You won't be convinced by anyone. C'est la vie. You are free to interpret the scriptures however you want. Go start your own church if you want. You have your agency. Do as you will. But your peculiar belief's are not what the church teaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: As is the use of "hell" in association with damnation. Easily explained. Like I said, I'm not going to argue with who's interpretation of the scriptures is more valid -- yours or the church's -- because there's nothing to argue. I will trust the church's view over yours and hope and pray that others do as well. As to your claiming your intelligent analysis is more valid than mine......................................well......we could have an intelligence competition I suppose. Let's say, just for fun, that you whipped me at it. Wouldn't matter a whit. I'd still trust the church's teachings over yours. As for convincing you -- that's not my objective. You won't be convinced by anyone. C'est la vie. You are free to interpret the scriptures however you want. Go start your own church if you want. You have your agency. Do as you will. But your peculiar belief's are not what the church teaches. All I asked for was for you to find me the scripture that teaches what you are saying. None exist. Damnation, according to the scriptures "always" means to be condemned to hell. Its only with that understanding that the scriptures can be correctly understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 I would also say that Joseph Smith clearly used this definition of damnation in all of his writings and translation of scripture- Damnation DAMNA'TION, noun 1. Sentence or condemnation to everlasting punishment in the future state; or the state of eternal torments. How can ye escape the damnation of hell. Matt. http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Damnation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 Oh...well I'm convinced Rob. You win the intelligence competition. Can I be baptized into your church please now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 37 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Oh...well I'm convinced Rob. You win the intelligence competition. Can I be baptized into your church please now? Sure, contact your local missionaries and come down to any of the LDS churches. Its great to be LDS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: I would also say that Joseph Smith clearly used this definition of damnation in all of his writings and translation of scripture- Damnation DAMNA'TION, noun 1. Sentence or condemnation to everlasting punishment in the future state; or the state of eternal torments. How can ye escape the damnation of hell. Matt. http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Damnation Rob, I don't understand that definition as only applicable to outer darkness. I think that being in telestial glory when one has celestial potential is an eternal torment. Or, say, if my husband ends up sealed with the righteous while I end up without the blessings of my sealing due to my unrighteousness - that is eternal torment too, I'd say, even as I may have reached a great glory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 49 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Sure, contact your local missionaries and come down to any of the LDS churches. Its great to be LDS. You mean ROLDS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 1 hour ago, anatess2 said: Rob, I don't understand that definition as only applicable to outer darkness. I think that being in telestial glory when one has celestial potential is an eternal torment. Or, say, if my husband ends up sealed with the righteous while I end up without the blessings of my sealing due to my unrighteousness - that is eternal torment too, I'd say, even as I may have reached a great glory. Of course, what you are proposing here isnt found anywhere in scripture. That means a lot- a belief not based on scripture. Let me ask this- do you think we are damned right now in this telestial kingdom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said: You mean ROLDS. Let me send you a link to my religion- https://www.lds.org/?lang=eng Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said: Let me send you a link to my religion- https://www.lds.org/?lang=eng Oh! You are LDS? I assumed you were an atheist, judging on your other posts . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Oh! You are LDS? I assumed you were an atheist, judging on your other posts . Like I said...never trust a gator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Oh! You are LDS? I assumed you were an atheist, judging on your other posts . I was guessing Scientologist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said: I was guessing Scientologist. Scientology eh? Sorry DoctorLemon, I dont belong to your religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 Mighty strange to belong to a church when you don't believe in its teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said: I was guessing Scientologist. It's obviously something very liberal and accepting of all sorts of creeds and alternative lifestyles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Of course, what you are proposing here isnt found anywhere in scripture. That means a lot- a belief not based on scripture. Let me ask this- do you think we are damned right now in this telestial kingdom? No. Damnation only refer to a state after Christ's judgement. Any judgment of damnation before that is unrighteous. Edited March 14, 2018 by anatess2 Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Scientology eh? Sorry DoctorLemon, I dont belong to your religion. I'm going to have to start calling you Pee Wee Osborn. "I know you are, but what am I?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 22 hours ago, Vort said: The joy of this magic wand would last maybe two weeks, tops. Hmm. Are these mortal Earth weeks or Kolob weeks? SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 15 minutes ago, anatess2 said: No. Damnation only refer to a state after Christ's judgement. Any judgment of damnation before that is unrighteous. So then, show me one scripture that states a person who is saved into the kingdom of heaven is damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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