We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction

[wenglund]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

@Rob Osborn

I am convinced that a kingdom – or kingdom of glory is not defined so much by a specific place as it is by the law given and those that abide (by choice) that law.  I would think that whatever law one is living – that will define the kingdom in which they abide.  I believe it possible to abide by Celestial law – even in present circumstance on this very earth.

The Traveler

Like Rob, I agree in part. 

As indicated in D&C 88, there are many kingdoms, from lesser to greater, and all kingdoms have a law given.  There is also suggested that one abides in a kingdom by abiding the law of that kingdom, and the inverse as well (he who cannot abide the law of the kingdom cannot abide the kingdom or the glory of the kingdom).

Evidently, the "many kingdoms" may be grouped and ranked into super sets of kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, etc.). Thus, to the extent that a person abides the "many kingdoms", they abide the super set kingdoms. 

What this means is that, as you suggest, mortals on earth may, to an extent, abide the celestial law and thus to that extent abide the celestial kingdom. 

However, I say "to an extent" because there are aspects of our mortal existence that cannot abide the celestial law at this time. Our fallen nature is corrupt, and cannot abide the celestial kingdom and glory. They cannot bear the pure and glorious presence of the Father and King of the Celestial kingdom.  Our bodies need to be transfigured or resurrected to a state of celestial glory in order to abide the law of the Celestial Kingdom. We cannot fully abide the Celestial Kingdom--or even the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms for that matter.

From what I gather, the extent to which some aspects (our spirits) of our mortal souls abides the given super set kingdoms, our physical bodies will later be resurrected in glory unto that super set kingdom, and thereby fully abide that kingdom. Our action and the associated state of our spirits while in mortality, then, will determine the kingdom we will fully inherit in resurrected glory.  

Hence, children who die before the age of accountability, are deemed as abiding the Celestial law in their spirit, and will receive a Celestial glorified body through the resurrection.

There is also scriptural indication that the nature of our physical bodies has some influence on our spirits, and can limit the capacity of our spirits to abide laws of certain kingdoms.  For example, our mortal bodies prevent us from abiding the celestial presence of our Heavenly Father, which means that we must walk by faith rather than by sight.

If so, this means that there is a symbiotic relationship between our spirits and bodies in terms of abiding the laws and the kingdoms. I

n other words, just as the state of our spirits while in mortality (which is a function of our actions and growth in faith while in mortality) will dictate the kingdom of resurrected glory for our physical bodies, so also will the resurrected glory of the body dictate the kingdom of the spirit--which may prohibit transitioning between super set kingdoms following the resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I think there is much upon which we agree.  There are two thoughts I would pass on.

First – the meaning of hell – at least to my understanding – hell is a synonym of death.  So, in essence the idea of being saved from hell is the same as being resurrected. 

Second – sometimes I think there is a misunderstanding with the terms joy (freedom and happiness) and misery (or bondage and captivity).   What I think happens is centered in the thinking that joy or freedom is doing what we want.  That is the allusion.  Joy and freedom is discipline – it encompasses light and truth and embraces order and is to act.  Misery or bondage is the opposition of joy – it is the product of circumstance that ends in chaos and reaction (rather than to act).   By nature of what it is to murder, commit adultery and lie are all the reaction to circumstance that is the attempt of a lie and deception.  But when everybody knows in advance the lie and deception those tools become the bondage that ends freedom.  Thus, the bondage is the deception one makes for themselves – they become their own loss of freedom and prison keeper.  And their shame is their own deception – which is obvious to everyone and eventually themselves.   This is all to say that goodness and evil are their own rewards – one being freedom the other being bondage.

 

The Traveler

I suppose in a very limited sense hell could be referred to as death. However, the "hell" spoken of that is defined in the plan of salvation and the predicament we are saved from is an actual place where the wicked are after death and where the devil and his angels are sentenced to.

[Jersey Boy]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:25 PM, Rob Osborn said:

I like finding truth using the logic of proof by contradiction. We assume a proposition is true and then prove it must be false because it creates a contradiction. Using this method we will apply it to D&C 76:103. It reads-

"103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

The stated proposition or assumed truth is that this group belongs to the future Telestial Kingdom, a place of glory prepared somewhere in the regions of heaven. So now we introduce the contradiction. That contradiction is found in several scriptures of which are noted in this verses footnotes. They read-

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelations 21:8)

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelations 22:15)

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
            18 Verily I say, that they shall not have part in the first resurrection. (D&C 63:17-18)

The contradiction here is that this group mentioned in 76:103 gets cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. This is a contradiction under our current assumed doctrine as the "lake of fire and brimstone" is reserved only for the sons of perdition. Here-

"15 And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.
            16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Nephi 9:15-16)

 

"9 Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God?
            10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment." (Jacob 6:9-10)

"32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
            33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
            34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
            35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
            36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;" (D&C 76:32-37)

It is very clear that those spoken of in verse 103 are those who partake of the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. It is also very clear that the only ones who partake of the lake of fire and brimstone (the second spiritual death) are the sons of perdition. Therefore, the proof by contradiction is that it cant possibly be the future Telestial Kingdom as sons of perdition arent saved into any region of heaven. Thus, by logic, the only possibility that remains is that in this vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are seeing the sons of perdition on our current earth which is the Telestial Kingdom.

As Wade says, you are in error because you’ve taken verse 103  out of context. I will now quote the verse in proper context and show you why you are in error:

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Because you did not read and analyze the verses following 103 you’ve made a mistake, thinking the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will enter the Telestial Kingdom as unrepentant liars, sorcerers, whoremongers and lovers & makers of lies — they will not, as you will soon realize.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

As a consequence of their sinful behavior, those spoken of in verse 103 are deprived God’s blessings on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

As a consequence of their sinfulness, the people spoken of in verse 103 are cursed of God while dwelling on the earth.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

Because of their sinfulness and failure to come unto Christ and repent, these people are cast into hell where they are punished for their sins and suffer the wrath of Almighty God UNTIL the appointed time when Christ shall have finally subdued all his enemies under his feet.

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

As a consequence of their experience of suffering for their sins in hell, the place where those unrepentant sinners who have not committed the unpardonable sin are exposed to the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the people spoken of in verse 103 will eventually be humbled (subdued) and in sincere repentance come unto Christ and repent of their sins. This is why this verse says Christ will be able to deliver up the kingdom to his Father spotless, for in the end all but the sons of perdition will be subdued and find forgiveness through the atoning power of Christ.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

Because he will have fulfilled the Father’s will by successfully saving all of Father’s children, with the exception of the implacably hardened and totally unrepentant sons of perdition, Christ will be crowned as the victorious Savior of all mankind.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

A very large portion of the Father’s children will, in the resurrection, inherit the Telestial Kingdom of of GLORY (remember, those who inhabit the realm of outer darkness will inherit no kingdom glory in the resurrection).

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

After enduring the process verse 107 calls the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the formerly unrepentant sinners spoken of in verse 103 will eventually believe, repent (see D&C 138) and  humbly worship God the Father, confessing by the power of the Spirit that Jesus Christ is the one who saved them.

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

Rather than ending up as resurrected sons of perdition who will dwell forever in outer darkness, the formerly unrepentant individuals spoken of in verse 103 will eventually inherit a dominion of glory in one of the Fathers many heavenly  mansions. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

As Wade says, you are in error because you’ve taken verse 103  out of context. I will now quote the verse in proper context and show you why you are in error:

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Because you did not read and analyze the verses following 103 you’ve made a mistake, thinking the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will enter the Telestial Kingdom as unrepentant liars, sorcerers, whoremongers and lovers & makers of lies — they will not, as you will soon realize.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

As a consequence of their sinful behavior, those spoken of in verse 103 are deprived God’s blessings on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

As a consequence of their sinfulness, the people spoken of in verse 103 are cursed of God while dwelling on the earth.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

Because of their sinfulness and failure to come unto Christ and repent, these people are cast into hell where they are punished for their sins and suffer the wrath of Almighty God UNTIL the appointed time when Christ shall have finally subdued all his enemies under his feet.

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

As a consequence of their experience of suffering for their sins in hell, the place where those unrepentant sinners who have not committed the unpardonable sin are exposed to the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the people spoken of in verse 103 will eventually be humbled (subdued) and in sincere repentance come unto Christ and repent of their sins. This is why this verse says Christ will be able to deliver up the kingdom to his Father spotless, for in the end all but the sons of perdition will be subdued and find forgiveness through the atoning power of Christ.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

Because he will have fulfilled the Father’s will by successfully saving all of Father’s children, with the exception of the implacably hardened and totally unrepentant sons of perdition, Christ will be crowned as the victorious Savior of all mankind.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

A very large portion of the Father’s children will, in the resurrection, inherit the Telestial Kingdom of of GLORY (remember, those who inhabit the realm of outer darkness will inherit no kingdom glory in the resurrection).

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

After enduring the process verse 107 calls the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God, the formerly unrepentant sinners spoken of in verse 103 will eventually believe, repent (see D&C 138) and  humbly worship God the Father, confessing by the power of the Spirit that Jesus Christ is the one who saved them.

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

Rather than ending up as resurrected sons of perdition who will dwell forever in outer darkness, the formerly unrepentant individuals spoken of in verse 103 will eventually inherit a dominion of glory in one of the Fathers many heavenly  mansions. 

Well, I think it can strongly be argued that the ones spoken of in verse 103 are not the same ones spoken of in verse 109. There are actually several groups spoken of here. They arent all the same people. The ones in verse 103 the Lord calls them his enemies. They never repent as this is what they are called (whoremongers, luars, etc). Criss reference proves this in Rev. 21:8 because they still retain that title after resurrectiin and judgment. Then, the Lord delivers the kingdom (these arent included) spotless before these are brought out of hell to be judged. It then shifts gears to show the righteous (different group) who do worship God and they are as numerous as the sands on the seashore and as such are heirs of salvation. These receive a reward in heaven because of their good works (works refers to obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel)

[wenglund]

12 hours ago, wenglund said:

Like Rob, I agree in part. 

As indicated in D&C 88, there are many kingdoms, from lesser to greater, and all kingdoms have a law given.  There is also suggested that one abides in a kingdom by abiding the law of that kingdom, and the inverse as well (he who cannot abide the law of the kingdom cannot abide the kingdom or the glory of the kingdom).

Evidently, the "many kingdoms" may be grouped and ranked into super sets of kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, etc.). Thus, to the extent that a person abides the "many kingdoms", they abide the super set kingdoms. 

What this means is that, as you suggest, mortals on earth may, to an extent, abide the celestial law and thus to that extent abide the celestial kingdom. 

However, I say "to an extent" because there are aspects of our mortal existence that cannot abide the celestial law at this time. Our fallen nature is corrupt, and cannot abide the celestial kingdom and glory. They cannot bear the pure and glorious presence of the Father and King of the Celestial kingdom.  Our bodies need to be transfigured or resurrected to a state of celestial glory in order to abide the law of the Celestial Kingdom. We cannot fully abide the Celestial Kingdom--or even the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms for that matter.

From what I gather, the extent to which some aspects (our spirits) of our mortal souls abides the given super set kingdoms, our physical bodies will later be resurrected in glory unto that super set kingdom, and thereby fully abide that kingdom. Our action and the associated state of our spirits while in mortality, then, will determine the kingdom we will fully inherit in resurrected glory.  

Hence, children who die before the age of accountability, are deemed as abiding the Celestial law in their spirit, and will receive a Celestial glorified body through the resurrection.

There is also scriptural indication that the nature of our physical bodies has some influence on our spirits, and can limit the capacity of our spirits to abide laws of certain kingdoms.  For example, our mortal bodies prevent us from abiding the celestial presence of our Heavenly Father, which means that we must walk by faith rather than by sight.

If so, this means that there is a symbiotic relationship between our spirits and bodies in terms of abiding the laws and the kingdoms. I

n other words, just as the state of our spirits while in mortality (which is a function of our actions and growth in faith while in mortality) will dictate the kingdom of resurrected glory for our physical bodies, so also will the resurrected glory of the body dictate the kingdom of the spirit--which may prohibit transitioning between super set kingdoms following the resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The short of this is that it is misleading at best, and errant at worst, to suggest that we are currently in the Telestial Kingdom, particularly if one assumes that the Telestial Kingdom is a place rather than the character of but a portion of our mortal souls  It conflates fallen earth with resurrected heavens. It confuses the type and shadow with the thing being typed.

This should be evident to those who have read D&C 76 and 88 in context.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

40 minutes ago, wenglund said:

The short of this is that it is misleading at best, and errant at worst, to suggest that we are currently in the Telestial Kingdom, particularly if one assumes that the Telestial Kingdom is a place rather than the character of but a portion of our mortal souls  It conflates fallen earth with resurrected heavens. It confuses the type and shadow with the thing being typed.

This should be evident to those who have read D&C 76 and 88 in context.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It can be argued that its wholly errant to believe whoremongers are going to be in heaven. Its a dilemma not easily solved.

[Jersey Boy]

6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It can be argued that its wholly errant to believe whoremongers are going to be in heaven. Its a dilemma not easily solved.

D&C 76 and D&C 138 both make it quite clear that at the time of death the unrepentant wicked, such as the whoremongers, sorcerers, adulterers and lovers of lies spoken of in verse 103, are consigned to dwell in the spirit prison (hell). While in the spirit prison, the wicked who have not yet committed the sin unpardonable are visited by messengers of light from paradise , ministering angels who continue the work of bringing sinful souls unto Christ and repentance in the world of departed spirits. The wicked spirits in the spirit prison who come unto Christ and repent will eventually inherit a telestial GLORY in the Telestial Kingdom. D&C 138 makes this very plain...

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repentof their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138)

The sins of whoremongering, sorcery, adultery and lying are not in the same category as the unpardonable sin, that ultimate sin for which there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come. Whoremongering, sorcery, adultry and lying are all forgivable for those who come unto Christ and sincerely repent.

Those who have not committed the unpardonable sin are consigned to suffer in ‘the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God’ until they are subdued through God’s tough love and learn the hard lesson that “wickedness never was happiness,” and that Christ is the only way to true joy and peace. Eventually, all but those who have committed the unpardonable sin will be delivered from the spirit prison, resurrected and given an inheritance in the Telestial Kingdom of GLORY. Remember, there is no glory of God in the realm outer darkness, but there is a measure of the God’s glory in the Telestial Kingdom. Your mistake has its origin in the fact that you fail to realize all sins, except for the unpardonable sin, are forgiveable.

 

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

D&C 76 and D&C 138 both make it quite clear that at the time of death the unrepentant wicked, such as the whoremongers, sorcerers, adulterers and lovers of lies spoken of in verse 103, are consigned to dwell in the spirit prison (hell). While in the spirit prison, the wicked who have not yet committed the sin unpardonable are visited by messengers of light from paradise , ministering angels who continue the work of bringing sinful souls unto Christ and repentance in the world of departed spirits. The wicked spirits in the spirit prison who come unto Christ and repent will eventually inherit a telestial GLORY in the Telestial Kingdom. D&C 138 makes this very plain...

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repentof their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138)

The sins of whoremongering, sorcery, adultery and lying are not in the same category as the unpardonable sin, that ultimate sin for which there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come. Whoremongering, sorcery, adultry and lying are all forgivable for those who come unto Christ and sincerely repent.

Those who have not committed the unpardonable sin are consigned to suffer in ‘the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God’ until they are subdued through God’s tough love and learn the hard lesson that “wickedness never was happiness,” and that Christ is the only way to true joy and peace. Eventually, all but those who have committed the unpardonable sin will be delivered from the spirit prison, resurrected and given an inheritance in the Telestial Kingdom of GLORY. Remember, there is no glory of God in the realm outer darkness, but there is a measure of the God’s glory in the Telestial Kingdom. Your mistake has its origin in the fact that you fail to realize all sins, except for the unpardonable sin, are forgiveable.

 

 

 

Im not failing to realize all sins are forgivable. All sins will be forgiven except for those sins which are either unforgivable or sins which people refuse to repent from. The adulterers, liars, whoremongers, etc, spoken of in verse 103 remain unforgiven because they choose not to repent. It is why they remain with that status after their resurrection and judgment. Go back and read the end of Revelations 20 and beginning of 21. In fact here-

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
            14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
            15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Chapter 21
            Those who overcome will be sons of God—The earth attains its celestial glory.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
            2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
            3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
            4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
            5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
            6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
            7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
            8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If you will note, the whoremongers, liars, etc, are still labled such. Pay careful attention here because this is after resurrection and judgment at this point. If they were forgiven they wouldnt still be labled as such nor would they be suffering the second death. Only those who thus choose to ulimately follow Satan will remain unforgiven and suffer in the second death. This is the group spoken of here- they never repent and thus are never forgiven.

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, wenglund said:

Like Rob, I agree in part. 

As indicated in D&C 88, there are many kingdoms, from lesser to greater, and all kingdoms have a law given.  There is also suggested that one abides in a kingdom by abiding the law of that kingdom, and the inverse as well (he who cannot abide the law of the kingdom cannot abide the kingdom or the glory of the kingdom).

Evidently, the "many kingdoms" may be grouped and ranked into super sets of kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, etc.). Thus, to the extent that a person abides the "many kingdoms", they abide the super set kingdoms. 

What this means is that, as you suggest, mortals on earth may, to an extent, abide the celestial law and thus to that extent abide the celestial kingdom. 

However, I say "to an extent" because there are aspects of our mortal existence that cannot abide the celestial law at this time. Our fallen nature is corrupt, and cannot abide the celestial kingdom and glory. They cannot bear the pure and glorious presence of the Father and King of the Celestial kingdom.  Our bodies need to be transfigured or resurrected to a state of celestial glory in order to abide the law of the Celestial Kingdom. We cannot fully abide the Celestial Kingdom--or even the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms for that matter.

From what I gather, the extent to which some aspects (our spirits) of our mortal souls abides the given super set kingdoms, our physical bodies will later be resurrected in glory unto that super set kingdom, and thereby fully abide that kingdom. Our action and the associated state of our spirits while in mortality, then, will determine the kingdom we will fully inherit in resurrected glory.  

Hence, children who die before the age of accountability, are deemed as abiding the Celestial law in their spirit, and will receive a Celestial glorified body through the resurrection.

There is also scriptural indication that the nature of our physical bodies has some influence on our spirits, and can limit the capacity of our spirits to abide laws of certain kingdoms.  For example, our mortal bodies prevent us from abiding the celestial presence of our Heavenly Father, which means that we must walk by faith rather than by sight.

If so, this means that there is a symbiotic relationship between our spirits and bodies in terms of abiding the laws and the kingdoms. I

n other words, just as the state of our spirits while in mortality (which is a function of our actions and growth in faith while in mortality) will dictate the kingdom of resurrected glory for our physical bodies, so also will the resurrected glory of the body dictate the kingdom of the spirit--which may prohibit transitioning between super set kingdoms following the resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

From what I understand there are 3 aspects, principles or pillars that define a kingdom and those that abide by that kingdom.

First – is the Law.  That has been partly discussed.  However, the reason that I bring up the law is for the purpose of distinguishing the laws that are Celestial from those of other kingdoms.

Second – are the Ordinances.  This is seldom discussed but just as the Law are part of the plan of Salvation – so are the Ordinances.  The problem is that because of the “doctrines of the world” or the “doctrines of men” few (and this includes the Latter-day Saints) do not understand the difference between an ordinance and a ritual.  This is because an Ordinance is directly associated with both the Law and Covenant.  This coupling is in part; why priesthood proctors (agents – exercising true agency) are necessary – even for the Son of G-d.

Third – Covenants.  We have a book of Scripture called “Doctrine and Covenants”.  It would seem to me that many define “Doctrine” in such a way to support their particular ideas rather than the perfect (or complete) light and truth of G-d – but here we learn that doctrine given by revelation guides a person living by covenant.  I could give my opinion more in this matter but others may argue that I am just using the arguments of doctrine to support my opinion – which would have a note of truth to it but is grossly incomplete.  What I mean to imply is that those that do not couple (connect) their doctrine (what they teach and testify or give witness) directly to their covenants – which are also tightly coupled to the Ordinances and Laws of salvation – are not abiding by the law that defines whatever kingdom they think they are striving or preparing for and thus become “false” doctrine unto them – even though otherwise having the appearance of being and argued logically as true.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not failing to realize all sins are forgivable. All sins will be forgiven except for those sins which are either unforgivable or sins which people refuse to repent from. The adulterers, liars, whoremongers, etc, spoken of in verse 103 remain unforgiven because they choose not to repent. It is why they remain with that status after their resurrection and judgment. Go back and read the end of Revelations 20 and beginning of 21. In fact here-

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
            14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
            15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Chapter 21
            Those who overcome will be sons of God—The earth attains its celestial glory.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
            2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
            3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
            4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
            5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
            6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
            7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
            8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If you will note, the whoremongers, liars, etc, are still labled such. Pay careful attention here because this is after resurrection and judgment at this point. If they were forgiven they wouldnt still be labled as such nor would they be suffering the second death. Only those who thus choose to ulimately follow Satan will remain unforgiven and suffer in the second death. This is the group spoken of here- they never repent and thus are never forgiven.

You fail to understand  that in D&C 76 the wicked mentioned in verse 103 are subjected to an ongoing salvative process that starts will a sinful state of alienation from God on earth, followed by being thrust into hell (the spirit prison) at the time of death. After being thrust into hell (NOT THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM) these same sinners are subjected to what is described as “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God;” a place wherein those so consigned suffer for their sins.until they are subdued to the divine will by God’s tough love. After being subdued to God by being allowed to suffer the consequences for their own sins, they are finally forgiven because they sincerely bow the knee to the God the Father and confess to him that Jesus Christ is their Christ and Savior. They are then resurrected and inherit a dominion in God’s Telestial Kingdom of heavenly GLORY.

The only way you can be correct is if the Telestial Kingdom and the outer darkness of the everlasting hell wherein the sons of perdition dwell are one and the same place. They are not...

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. (sound familiar?)

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed (meaning they WILL eventually be redeemed) from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; (D&C 76)

As anyone can see, the Telestial Kingdom is not at all like hell, yet D&C 76 clearly tells us the individuals spoken of in verse 103 WILL inherit the Telestial Kingdom. I’m quite sure there isn’t a single General Authority who would agree that the Telestial Kingdom and the Hell of the sons of perdition are one and the same.

[zil]

@Jersey Boy, I was thinking of buying you a gift, cuz I think you'll need it soon.  Which would you prefer:

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

You fail to understand  that in D&C 76 the wicked mentioned in verse 103 are subjected to an ongoing salvative process that starts will a sinful state of alienation from God on earth, followed by being thrust into hell (the spirit prison) at the time of death. After being thrust into hell (NOT THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM) these same sinners are subjected to what is described as “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God;” a place wherein those so consigned suffer for their sins.until they are subdued to the divine will by God’s tough love. After being subdued to God by being allowed to suffer the consequences for their own sins, they are finally forgiven because they sincerely bow the knee to the God the Father and confess to him that Jesus Christ is their Christ and Savior. They are then resurrected and inherit a dominion in God’s Telestial Kingdom of heavenly GLORY.

The only way you can be correct is if the Telestial Kingdom and the outer darkness of the everlasting hell wherein the sons of perdition dwell are one and the same place. They are not...

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. (sound familiar?)

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed (meaning they WILL eventually be redeemed) from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; (D&C 76)

As anyone can see, the Telestial Kingdom is not at all like hell, yet D&C 76 clearly tells us the individuals spoken of in verse 103 WILL inherit the Telestial Kingdom. I’m quite sure there isn’t a single General Authority who would agree that the Telestial Kingdom and the Hell of the sons of perdition are one and the same.

The crux of the issue is whether or not those specific ones in verse 103 repent and are forgiven. There is every evidence from scripture that these never repent. Revelations is probably the clearest indication that they never repent. The principle applied here is that without repentance and baptism God cannot forgive someone their sins. Without that process a person must be cast into outer darkness after resurrection and judgment as they cannot be cleansed through the atonement. Christ only has the power to cleanse one from their sins through strict obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Suffering in hell does nothing to cleanse, its only through repentance, baptism and faith that sins are forgiven. If they are forgiven then the Lord remembers them no more. All of those Christ saves from hell he does so because they have met the qualifications for to be saved. And of those they get accounted as sons and daughters of God. Never again are they accounted by the sins they committed. So, therefore, when the Lord is still calling them whoremongers after their resurrection and judgment it means they never repented and thus were never forgiven. Thus, they have no inheritance in the mansions of the Father. If one doesnt take into account that when Joseph and Sidney are seeing the telestial that they are seeing different groups then one can never understand what exactly they are viewing. For instance, in verse 99 it states-

"99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas."

This particular group is a rather small group, its the members of the church of God in Corinth that Paul visited. In his address to to them he addresses them as fellow "saints", here is his exact words-

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints" (1 Corinthians verse 2).

This is obviously not the same group as those mentioned in verse 103. Even though some of the saints at Corinth were caught up in worldly sins Paul still addresses them as saints. Obviously, saints and whoremongers after resurrection and judgment are not the same group. Its these little type of clues that open the mind to the reality of what the vision entailed. Joseph and Sidney are seeing the vast differences in the glory of those in our world right now, thats what they saw. The phrase "last of all" as mentioned in verse 102 is a shift showing the ones who are the lowest of low in the telestial world.  It is only this group who do not qualify to be saved. It even states this, read-

"102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud."

Read very very carefully, there are only two groups out of everyone who has or ever will come to this earth mentioned in this verse. On the one hand you have all of the saints caught up in the cloud to be awarded a place in heaven and the rest, which are these last of all folks, who are not caught up. This is important because they are the only ones who fail to receive a reward in heaven. Here-

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion.

22 And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things. Amen.(D&C 78:21-22)

75 That when the trump shall sound for the dead, we shall be caught up in the cloud to meet thee, that we may ever be with the Lord;

76 That our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings. (D&C 109:75-76)

It is thus obvious that they are viewing our earth which is in fact called just what this section states. This earth right now is the telestial kingdom and telestial world. Its the very same language from the temple that identifies where and what the telestial kingdom is in the plan of salvation.

In truth, there is only one group mentioned in section 76 tgat are saved. That group is the celestial. Read the qualifications and traits of the celestial in verses 50-70 and you will come to realize they are the only ones whom God brings into the cloud to appoint tgem a reward in heaven. They are the church of the Firstborn, the very ones, and only ones, Christ can save, the only ones he can cleanse from sin.

[wenglund]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It can be argued that its wholly errant to believe whoremongers are going to be in heaven. Its a dilemma not easily solved.

That may be true only if one interprets the relevant passages in literal and binary terms and confuses current actions with future judgments.

To me, the key to understanding the relevant passages is to recognize that, as Elder Oaks has mentioned in several General Conferences, the resurrection is "a pillar of our faith." (see HERE and HERE) 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

From what I understand there are 3 aspects, principles or pillars that define a kingdom and those that abide by that kingdom.

First – is the Law.  That has been partly discussed.  However, the reason that I bring up the law is for the purpose of distinguishing the laws that are Celestial from those of other kingdoms.

Second – are the Ordinances.  This is seldom discussed but just as the Law are part of the plan of Salvation – so are the Ordinances.  The problem is that because of the “doctrines of the world” or the “doctrines of men” few (and this includes the Latter-day Saints) do not understand the difference between an ordinance and a ritual.  This is because an Ordinance is directly associated with both the Law and Covenant.  This coupling is in part; why priesthood proctors (agents – exercising true agency) are necessary – even for the Son of G-d.

Third – Covenants.  We have a book of Scripture called “Doctrine and Covenants”.  It would seem to me that many define “Doctrine” in such a way to support their particular ideas rather than the perfect (or complete) light and truth of G-d – but here we learn that doctrine given by revelation guides a person living by covenant.  I could give my opinion more in this matter but others may argue that I am just using the arguments of doctrine to support my opinion – which would have a note of truth to it but is grossly incomplete.  What I mean to imply is that those that do not couple (connect) their doctrine (what they teach and testify or give witness) directly to their covenants – which are also tightly coupled to the Ordinances and Laws of salvation – are not abiding by the law that defines whatever kingdom they think they are striving or preparing for and thus become “false” doctrine unto them – even though otherwise having the appearance of being and argued logically as true.

 

The Traveler

I agree. 

Do you consider the resurrection to be an ordinance?  

I ask because it seems to me that many of the rituals and ordinances currently performed on earth are preparatory in nature, or fore-ordinations of sorts, where we are ordain to become this or that, whereas through the resurrection we are made such and such.

In other words, whatever kingdom we currently abide on earth (being a function of the laws and ordinances and covenants that we make and keep), are a type and shadow of the kingdoms we will abide in the resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

That may be true only if one interprets the relevant passages in literal and binary terms and confuses current actions with future judgments.

To me, the key to understanding the relevant passages is to recognize that, as Elder Oaks has mentioned in several General Conferences, the resurrection is "a pillar of our faith." (see HERE and HERE) 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Theres no debate that after resurrection the whoremongers, liars, etc, spoken of are still just that. Thats why they are in the second death- they never accept Christ and repent. Therefore, they arent in heaven.

[Rob Osborn]

45 minutes ago, wenglund said:

In other words, whatever kingdom we currently abide on earth (being a function of the laws and ordinances and covenants that we make and keep), are a type and shadow of the kingdoms we will abide in the resurrection.

I completely disagree with this. The Celestial kingdom requires perfection. Who lived perfectly (without sin)? Besides, we make covenants in the temple that are not possible to be fully realized until the millennium. The truth is that until we are finished with our cleansing and perfection in all things at the end of the millennium we are not ready for celestial glory. It is thus why our next lives are in terrestrial glory during the millennium. We must go from one step to the next. What we do here and now qualifies us for the next step, not skipping steps. If we are willing to enter into the everlasting covenant of the gospel we qualify for the millennium. We had to qualify to come here to this kingdom. Some didnt make it. Some wont qualify for the terrestrial and then, in the end, some wont qualify for heaven (celestial glory).

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The crux of the issue is whether or not those specific ones in verse 103 repent and are forgiven. There is every evidence from scripture that these never repent. Revelations is probably the clearest indication that they never repent. The principle applied here is that without repentance and baptism God cannot forgive someone their sins. Without that process a person must be cast into outer darkness after resurrection and judgment as they cannot be cleansed through the atonement. Christ only has the power to cleanse one from their sins through strict obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Suffering in hell does nothing to cleanse, its only through repentance, baptism and faith that sins are forgiven. If they are forgiven then the Lord remembers them no more. All of those Christ saves from hell he does so because they have met the qualifications for to be saved. And of those they get accounted as sons and daughters of God. Never again are they accounted by the sins they committed. So, therefore, when the Lord is still calling them whoremongers after their resurrection and judgment it means they never repented and thus were never forgiven. Thus, they have no inheritance in the mansions of the Father. If one doesnt take into account that when Joseph and Sidney are seeing the telestial that they are seeing different groups then one can never understand what exactly they are viewing. For instance, in verse 99 it states-

"99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas."

This particular group is a rather small group, its the members of the church of God in Corinth that Paul visited. In his address to to them he addresses them as fellow "saints", here is his exact words-

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints" (1 Corinthians verse 2).

This is obviously not the same group as those mentioned in verse 103. Even though some of the saints at Corinth were caught up in worldly sins Paul still addresses them as saints. Obviously, saints and whoremongers after resurrection and judgment are not the same group. Its these little type of clues that open the mind to the reality of what the vision entailed. Joseph and Sidney are seeing the vast differences in the glory of those in our world right now, thats what they saw. The phrase "last of all" as mentioned in verse 102 is a shift showing the ones who are the lowest of low in the telestial world.  It is only this group who do not qualify to be saved. It even states this, read-

"102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud."

Read very very carefully, there are only two groups out of everyone who has or ever will come to this earth mentioned in this verse. On the one hand you have all of the saints caught up in the cloud to be awarded a place in heaven and the rest, which are these last of all folks, who are not caught up. This is important because they are the only ones who fail to receive a reward in heaven. Here-

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion.

22 And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things. Amen.(D&C 78:21-22)

75 That when the trump shall sound for the dead, we shall be caught up in the cloud to meet thee, that we may ever be with the Lord;

76 That our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings. (D&C 109:75-76)

It is thus obvious that they are viewing our earth which is in fact called just what this section states. This earth right now is the telestial kingdom and telestial world. Its the very same language from the temple that identifies where and what the telestial kingdom is in the plan of salvation.

In truth, there is only one group mentioned in section 76 tgat are saved. That group is the celestial. Read the qualifications and traits of the celestial in verses 50-70 and you will come to realize they are the only ones whom God brings into the cloud to appoint tgem a reward in heaven. They are the church of the Firstborn, the very ones, and only ones, Christ can save, the only ones he can cleanse from sin.

There’s only one way your unorthodox ideas can be made to harmonize with the Doctrine & Covenants and that’s only if the two lower kingdoms of glory are somehow encompassed within the celestial kingdom. In other words, if you’re right the Celestial Kingdom will have one class of saved people dwelling within it who will only be able to enjoy the immediate presence of the Son but not be able to enjoy the presence of the Father (those of the terrestrial glory); and there will also be those dwelling there who will not have the opportunity enjoy the immediate presence of either the Son or the Father, but will instead be ministered to by the Holy Spirt and by beings of a terrestrial degree glory. If this is so, then that means we’re right back where we started from with saved beings of three different degrees of glory, the only difference being that in some sort of technical sense they all coexist as vastly unequal citizens within one celestial kingdom. 

On another point, there is every reason to believe those spoken of in verse 103 will eventually be saved because of what’s clearly set forth in verse 107. It reads...

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, UNTIL the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 107)

The above verse plainly indicates that the wicked in verse 103, those who are cast into hell (the spirit prison), will suffer in hell for only a limited period time, and that the time of the end of their sufferings will arrive at the time when Christ shall have perfected his work. This is why we are told they indeed will suffer, but only UNTIL the time Christ has successfully subdued his enemies. Meanwhile, we know that the sons of perdition will continue to suffer forever because there has never been a promise given to the effect that those consigned to outer darkness will suffer only until the arrival of a certain period in time. The reason why the sons of perdition continue to suffer without relief is because they are the only ones whom Christ is unable to subdue in a spirit of repentance, and this because they cannot be forced to be saved against their will.

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Theres no debate that after resurrection the whoremongers, liars, etc, spoken of are still just that. Thats why they are in the second death- they never accept Christ and repent. Therefore, they arent in heaven.

Your mistake is precipitated  by the fact that the whoremongers and liars spoken of in Revelation never repent, while the whoremongers and liars spoken of in D&C do eventually repent, and for this reason they suffer only UNTIL the time that Christ has perfected his work. You’re assuming the the whoremongers and liars in Revelation are in precisely the same category as those spoken of in D&C 76 who do eventually repent and are relieved of their sufferings,

Because of the similarities of language and terminology in the two verses, the one verse being from Revelation and the other from D&C 76, you’ve incorrectly assumed they are both speaking of people who are in the exact same category — but they are not. The Book of Revelation tells us the whoremomhers and liars referred to there do suffer forever; meanwhile the sufferings of the liars and whoremomgers spoken of in D&C 76 do eventually come to an end. While it’s understandable why you made an incorrect assumption because of linguistic similarities, nevertheless, you did make an incorrect assumption. This is why it’s never a good idea to seize scripture verses out of context. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[SilentOne]

@Jersey Boy FYI, @Rob Osborn's theory of the plan of salvation as I understand it is that we are now in the Telestial Kingdom. After death, we will go to the Terrestrial Kingdom to learn and progress until we are ready to enter the Celestial Kingdom. In the end, everybody ends up either saved/exalted in the Celestial Kingdom or damned in hell/Outer Darkness.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

There’s only one way your unorthodox ideas can be made to harmonize with the Doctrine & Covenants and that’s only if the two lower kingdoms of glory are somehow encompassed within the celestial kingdom. In other words, if you’re right the Celestial Kingdom will have one class of saved people dwelling within it who will only be able to enjoy the immediate presence of the Son but not be able to enjoy the presence of the Father (those of the terrestrial glory); and there will also be those dwelling there who will not have the opportunity enjoy the immediate presence of either the Son or the Father, but will instead be ministered to by the Holy Spirt and by beings of a terrestrial degree glory. If this is so, then that means we’re right back where we started from with saved beings of three different degrees of glory, the only difference being that in some sort of technical sense they all coexist as vastly unequal citizens within one celestial kingdom. 

On another point, there is every reason to believe those spoken of in verse 103 will eventually be saved because of what’s clearly set forth in verse 107. It reads...

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, UNTIL the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 107)

The above verse plainly indicates that the wicked in verse 103, those who are cast into hell (the spirit prison), will suffer in hell for only a limited period time, and that the time of the end of their sufferings will arrive at the time when Christ shall have perfected his work. This is why we are told they indeed will suffer, but only UNTIL the time Christ has successfully subdued his enemies. Meanwhile, we know that the sons of perdition will continue to suffer forever because there has never been a promise given to the effect that those consigned to outer darkness will suffer only until the arrival of a certain period in time. The reason why the sons of perdition continue to suffer without relief is because they are the only ones whom Christ is unable to subdue in a spirit of repentance, and this because they cannot be forced to be saved against their will.

I guess I read it a little differently. I read it to mean that they suffer there in hell until their resurrection to be judged. It doesnt say they will be redeemed in the sense of receiving salvation. It also reads to me tgat they are very enemies under Christs feet and stay their until after Christ has perfected the kingdom (different people). Then, after the kingdom has been received, these are redeemed or resurrected to be judged. I read it in this light-

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
            13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.
            14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still. (Mormon 9:12-14)

 

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Your mistake is precipitated  by the fact that the whoremongers and liars spoken of in Revelation never repent, while the whoremongers and liars spoken of in D&C do eventually repent, and for this reason they suffer only UNTIL the time that Christ has perfected his work. You’re assuming the the whoremongers and liars in Revelation are in precisely the same category as those spoken of in D&C 76 who do eventually repent and are relieved of their sufferings,

Because of the similarities of language and terminology in the two verses, the one verse being from Revelation and the other from D&C 76, you’ve incorrectly assumed they are both speaking of people who are in the exact same category — but they are not. The Book of Revelation tells us the whoremomhers and liars referred to there do suffer forever; meanwhile the sufferings of the liars and whoremomgers spoken of in D&C 76 do eventually come to an end. While it’s understandable why you made an incorrect assumption because of linguistic similarities, nevertheless, you did make an incorrect assumption. This is why it’s never a good idea to seize scripture verses out of context. 

If they repent and are forgiven then they cant be called that. So why do they retain the title? I mean really- we all lie, but because we repent to go to the celestial we arent titled "liars". So why do they retain the title if they were forgiven of all that sin? Like I said, theres no indication to me they ever repent.

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, SilentOne said:

@Jersey Boy FYI, @Rob Osborn's theory of the plan of salvation as I understand it is that we are now in the Telestial Kingdom. After death, we will go to the Terrestrial Kingdom to learn and progress until we are ready to enter the Celestial Kingdom. In the end, everybody ends up either saved/exalted in the Celestial Kingdom or damned in hell/Outer Darkness.

Spot on, spot on!

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

I agree. 

Do you consider the resurrection to be an ordinance?  

I ask because it seems to me that many of the rituals and ordinances currently performed on earth are preparatory in nature, or fore-ordinations of sorts, where we are ordain to become this or that, whereas through the resurrection we are made such and such.

In other words, whatever kingdom we currently abide on earth (being a function of the laws and ordinances and covenants that we make and keep), are a type and shadow of the kingdoms we will abide in the resurrection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, I believe the resurrecion to be a priesthood ordinance (at least I believe there is logic for the notion) - using types and shadows I speculate that worthy husbands that hold the priesthood and are married according to the everlasting covenant will resurrect their wives.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

On 4/3/2018 at 10:35 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I think it can strongly be argued that the ones spoken of in verse 103 are not the same ones spoken of in verse 109. There are actually several groups spoken of here. They arent all the same people. The ones in verse 103 the Lord calls them his enemies. They never repent as this is what they are called (whoremongers, luars, etc). Criss reference proves this in Rev. 21:8 because they still retain that title after resurrectiin and judgment. Then, the Lord delivers the kingdom (these arent included) spotless before these are brought out of hell to be judged. It then shifts gears to show the righteous (different group) who do worship God and they are as numerous as the sands on the seashore and as such are heirs of salvation. These receive a reward in heaven because of their good works (works refers to obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel)

If, as you claim, the Earth is now the Telestial Kingdom;

And, given that there are whoremongers and liars on earth.

Then, according to you, there are whoremongers and liars in the Telestial kingdom.

Yet, you claim that whoremongers and liars are in hell/outer darkness rather than the Telestial Kingdom.

Which is it?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

If, as you claim, the Earth is now the Telestial Kingdom;

And, given that there are whoremongers and liars on earth.

Then, according to you, there are whoremongers and liars in the Telestial kingdom.

Yet, you claim that whoremongers and liars are in hell/outer darkness rather than the Telestial Kingdom.

Which is it?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

They are on our earth right (which is the telestial kingdom) now during their mortality. At death they go into hell. Then, at the end of the millennium they will be resurrected in the "last resurrection" or the "resurrection of the unjust" as they are not justified through Christ unto the cleansing from their sins and thus remain "filthy still". They will then be barred from entrance into heaven and suffer the second death. This is what John in Revelations was speaking of-

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
            15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev. 22:14-15)

Edited April 5, 2018 by Rob Osborn