We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, zil said:

He is utterly and completely obdurate, and the rest of us rightly refuse to believe his interpretation is correct

It's more than that.  He has essentially said that given the option between trusting his own interpretation vs what he D&C outright says, he has declared that the D&C is in error over his own private interpretation.

[Rob Osborn]

I honestly wonder if my fellow saints even understand where Im coming from. I dont believe we even begin to comprehend the great plan of salvation. Principle in understanding doctrine is like a foreign object in the eye. We are supposed to learn line upon line, precept upon precept. But when one doesnt even understand the very principles of the gospel there is no progress forward. We have been blessed to receive so many mysteries, so many answers, yet they arent truly received because we fail to understand the plain and simple teachings of Christ. Heres the truth, and hopefully someone needing answers will search the web and will stumble upon this post and find it-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

There is only two end states for man as this scripture states. We will either find eternal life on the right hand of God or must be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone prepared for the devil and his angels, there is no other outcome. This much is true, Christ testifies of this principle and pillar of truth. One cant accuse me of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Thats your own predicament because you refuse to understand that this simple yet profound principle in this scripture is straight from the Lord and is exactly correct. But you cannot see, cannot hear. You refuse to acknowledge the many testimonies of these truths from scripture. 

[estradling75]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It's more than that.  He has essentially said that given the option between trusting his own interpretation vs what he D&C outright says, he has declared that the D&C is in error over his own private interpretation.

For example... D&C 76 it is the driving force of the greater light and understanding we have about the Three Degrees of Glory... It says

5 For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

6 Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

7 And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

8 Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

9 And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.

 

So the Lord is clearly going to teach those that come to him so not only will they see things no one else had ever seen they will understand them greater then anyone else.

Related to this it continues

 

11 We, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, being in the Spirit on the sixteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two—

12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—

 

Thus right in our very scripture right before the visions began, the Lord says he will give knowledge and Understanding... and Joseph Smith and Sidney state that they got the Knowledge and Understanding directly from the Lord.

Yet Rob has repeatedly claimed that Joseph Smith (and Sidney) did not understand what they saw.  That he and only he has correctly understood what the Lord was trying to teach

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

For example... D&C 76 it is the driving force of the greater light and understanding we have about the Three Degrees of Glory... It says

5 For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.

6 Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

7 And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.

8 Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

9 And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.

 

So the Lord is clearly going to teach those that come to him so not only will they see things no one else had ever seen they will understand them greater then anyone else.

Related to this it continues

 

11 We, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, being in the Spirit on the sixteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two—

12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—

 

Thus right in our very scripture right before the visions began, the Lord says he will give knowledge and Understanding... and Joseph Smith and Sidney state that they got the Knowledge and Understanding directly from the Lord.

Yet Rob has repeatedly claimed that Joseph Smith (and Sidney) did not understand what they saw.  That he and only he has correctly understood what the Lord was trying to teach

 

And so, the plan of salvation as taught in the temple, does it mean nothing then? Is that not where God revealed his revelation concerning the correct understanding of the plan of salvation? Is not the wording correct in identifying our earth as the telestial kingdom?

[estradling75]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

And so, the plan of salvation as taught in the temple, does it mean nothing then? Is that not where God revealed his revelation concerning the correct understanding of the plan of salvation? Is not the wording correct in identifying our earth as the telestial kingdom?

You have wrong understanding of the three degree of glory thus you distort and have the wrong understanding of what the temple is teaching. (Your prideful bias distorts everything).

People have repeatedly tried to explain this to you but you have no desire to understand so it is in vain effort. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Yet Rob has repeatedly claimed that Joseph Smith (and Sidney) did not understand what they saw.  That he and only he has correctly understood what the Lord was trying to teach.

To add to that... When this revelation was declared to the membership, the people had a hard time with it because it sounded too much like universalism -- which meant that everyone would be saved in heaven.  It took a while for Joseph to explain to the people what it meant.  It was salvation, but differing levels of salvation.

If it was referring to today's earth, the millennial earth, and the paradisiacal earth, then that would have been put to bed very quickly.  But instead, Joseph said something else that was difficult for the binary afterlife proponents of the time could comprehend.  It appears that Rob is among those who cannot comprehend it.

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

To add to that... When this revelation was declared to the membership, the people had a hard time with it because it sounded too much like universalism -- which meant that everyone would be saved in heaven.  It took a while for Joseph to explain to the people what it meant.  It was salvation, but differing levels of salvation.

If it was referring to today's earth, the millennial earth, and the paradisiacal earth, then that would have been put to bed very quickly.  But instead, Joseph said something else that was difficult for the binary afterlife proponents of the time could comprehend.  It appears that Rob is among those who cannot comprehend it.

Indeed...  It is the difference between Salvation and Exaltation.  I have met a few other members who tend to confuse the two.  It is in some ways understandable because the Salvation model is very binary in a sense.  It is also the lesser light and knowledge that is commonly taught in the scriptures including the Book of Mormon.  The greater Light and Knowledge of Exaltation and the Three Degrees of Glory tend to be only hinted at until you get to modern revelation.  Those who demand that the Greater Light and Knowledge be crammed in to box the lesser light and knowledge fit in (like Rob) will always be confused and wrong.

[Rob Osborn]

35 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It appears that Rob is among those who cannot comprehend it.

And yet, later in Josephs life the endowment ceremony was revealed where it was shown what the kingdoms meant and how the plan of salvation fits within that framework. Somehow we forget that...

[Traveler]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:17 AM, Rob Osborn said:

Ask Satan and the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven that followed him. 

Personally I think very very few will be cast into outer darkness after resurrection and judgment. Almost all will be cleansed and saved into the kingdom of heaven.

I think I can understand some of what you are projecting – what I am trying to understand is your notion of those that your think are worthy of outer darkness (or anything less than you) and why?  I am not concerned with numbers.  What I do not understand is - How do you think you are different (better) from them?  What is it that you think you have accomplished that they can’t?

 

The Traveler

 

As a side note - I have great difficulty in understanding why Satan and that those that follow him - could not or did not do otherwise.  If it really was their choice - how or why did they choose so badly and why can't they realize the complete folly or stupidity of their choice?  Also if so very few here will end up there - why are you making a big deal of it.  Whatever the reason is - it is not likely that they simply disagree with you - why not utilize your time and resourses for something important and worthwhile???

Edited April 6, 2018 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think I can understand some of what you are projecting – what I am trying to understand is your notion of those that your think are worthy of outer darkness (or anything less than you) and why?  I am not concerned with numbers.  What I do not understand is - How do you think you are different (better) from them?  What is it that you think you have accomplished that they can’t?

 

The Traveler

 

As a side note - I have great difficulty in understanding why Satan and that those that follow him - could not or did not do otherwise.  If it really was their choice - how or why did they choose so badly and why can't they realize the complete folly or stupidity of their choice?  Also if so very few here will end up there - why are you making a big deal of it.  Whatever the reason is - it is not likely that they simply disagree with you - why not utilize your time and resourses for something important and worthwhile???

Ive researched a lot, had dreams about, and prayed about, the followers of Satan. Its all about pride and greed. They love to be dominate over others. They like that power- it consumes them. They glory in wickedness. Its lije the serial killer that loves that dominating thrill ride of controlling others and then snuffing them out. Sure, there pain and anguish in their mind but they do find real pleasure from the flesh in that and become a slave to those feelings of self grandeur.

The reason I make a big deal out of the plan of salvation is that we are playing right into the devils hands in thinking that not everyobe needs to repent from "all" their sins and become cleansed and pure to inherit the kingdom of heaven. If we dont become pure and spotless 100% then the devil seals us his. We need to awaken our faculties to that harsh reality!

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed...  It is the difference between Salvation and Exaltation.  I have met a few other members who tend to confuse the two.  It is in some ways understandable because the Salvation model is very binary in a sense.  It is also the lesser light and knowledge that is commonly taught in the scriptures including the Book of Mormon.  The greater Light and Knowledge of Exaltation and the Three Degrees of Glory tend to be only hinted at until you get to modern revelation.  Those who demand that the Greater Light and Knowledge be crammed in to box the lesser light and knowledge fit in (like Rob) will always be confused and wrong.

So, is this scripture wrong-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Where are the other outcomes? Was the Lord wrong?

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, is this scripture wrong-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Where are the other outcomes? Was the Lord wrong?

The scripture is not wrong... but you have a serious flaw in that you demand that the terms can mean one and one only thing... the definition you demand.  And you have been repeatedly called out on this and will not accept even the remotest possibility that you understand it wrong.

 

 

[Traveler]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ive researched a lot, had dreams about, and prayed about, the followers of Satan. Its all about pride and greed. They love to be dominate over others. They like that power- it consumes them. They glory in wickedness. Its lije the serial killer that loves that dominating thrill ride of controlling others and then snuffing them out. Sure, there pain and anguish in their mind but they do find real pleasure from the flesh in that and become a slave to those feelings of self grandeur.

The reason I make a big deal out of the plan of salvation is that we are playing right into the devils hands in thinking that not everyobe needs to repent from "all" their sins and become cleansed and pure to inherit the kingdom of heaven. If we dont become pure and spotless 100% then the devil seals us his. We need to awaken our faculties to that harsh reality!

 

I getting more confused - Are lots and lots in danger because they have not repented of "ALL" their sins???  Have you repented of all yours?????  Are you cleansed and pure - spotless 100%???  Are you awake and trying to awaken those that have missed something?  I am a 5th generation Member - my father, mother, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cozens and many friends (baptized members and sealed in the temple) – some of which have died thinking there are 3 degrees of heavenly glory.  Is this a tiny sin that keeps them from being cleansed and pure 100%?  Are they going to outer darkness just for that?

Now I will ask a very hard question concerning pride (obviously because I struggle a lot with pride) – Is pride thinking you need to get others to do or think more (or different) than what you are willing?

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

3 hours ago, zil said:

The most tragic part of this is that any of us who desire to have a discussion exploring the Church's teachings about eternity, staying within those bounds, can't! 

Well, let's carry on a conversation anyway.

I find of particular interest the following quote:

Quote

1910: Joseph F. Smith:

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.

Notice that the primary statement is that the passing from one to another is not provided for.  It is not in the plan.  Yet he added the parenthetical.  Why?

I believe it has to do with the nature of the kingdoms and why they are the way they are.  People have said that a cat will always be a cat.  And a cat is content being a cat.  A cat never dreams of being a doctor or a lawyer or a prophet.  So, the cat's dreams will be fulfilled.

People who go to the Telestial Kingdom will remain in the Telestial Kingdom, not because of an arbitrary rule or declaration from the Lord.  They remain because it is their very nature to only do certain things.  It is in their nature to only believe in certain things.  It is in their very nature to value flesh over spirit.  There is some inherent trait in each of us that doesn't change.

LIkewise the Terrestrial.

And the Celestial is of the people with that trait that says,"I'll never give up.  Nothing will satisfy me. I will ALWAYS seek the best.  I won't settle for simple trinkets when I can have exaltation." Such will never give up something better for something good. 

We're all at different stages while on earth.  But THIS LIFE IS THE TIME for men to prepare to meet God.  Not because it isn't "allowed".  It is because the very nature of the kingdoms beyond are such that we simply cannot learn beyond a certain level.  We ourselves limit our progression.

So, from that perspective, let's look at that parenthetical.  "may be possible."  IOW, it "is not provided for."  So, there is a particular path that the Lord has set.  The Plan of Salvation has been prepared for man to inherit Eternal Life.  But is it possible that there is some back door?  Well, there's nothing that says there isn't. So, he's admitting that it isn't explicitly stated in scriptures that there isn't another way.  But it simply isn't in the plan that he's outlined for us. 

So I'd ask: Is that the Lord's way?  Have another route and don't tell us about it.  Is that what He does?

Strait is the gate and narrow is the way. 

Quote

I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No man cometh unto the Father but by me.

Quote

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

What I find interesting is that this JFS quote is often used by proponents of progress between kingdoms when it clearly delineates separate kingdoms in the afterlife.  Yet, they use it to essentially declare there are no separations.  "We're just in a long line.  That's all."

No.  There are separate kingdoms.  That much is certain.  And the separations are clear.

And again and again the Lord declares "where God and Christ dwell, they cannot come."

[Rob Osborn]

59 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The scripture is not wrong... but you have a serious flaw in that you demand that the terms can mean one and one only thing... the definition you demand.  And you have been repeatedly called out on this and will not accept even the remotest possibility that you understand it wrong.

 

 

So then, according to ths scripture, do all the saved receive eternal life?

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, zil said:

The most tragic part of this is that any of us who desire to have a discussion exploring the Church's teachings about eternity, staying within those bounds, can't!  We are being held hostage by the fact that any attempt to do that is guaranteed to be interrupted by Rob pushing his false doctrine, and the attempted discussion will immediately devolve into countering his erroneous interpretations - and to no avail.  He is utterly and completely obdurate, and the rest of us rightly refuse to believe his interpretation is correct, thus every single one of these conversations is pointless and useless and likely serves Satan more than God through its contention (except we cannot, IMO, let the false doctrine go uncontested lest it lead someone away from the Church).

Frankly, it sucks.

For the most part, I agree.

However, I offer one exception. Discussions with Rob have caused me to drill down much deeper into my own beliefs and test the less sure portions. I am also caused to openly consider differing perspectives, which helps broaden the horizons of my understanding..

I may not have changed Rob's mind, but at least I have provided him with that opportunity to do so, and in the process I have changed my mind for the better in growth. 

In this discussion I have not only strengthened my belief in the modern understanding of the heavens, but I have also learned several new things.  In fact, late last night in my research on Section 76, I came across a wonderful dissertation examining the section as literature. Not only did I learn that there was a poem written by Joseph Smith (likely with the help of W.W. Phelps) intimately related to Section 76, titled "The Vision," but I was also educated on the chiasmic structure of several key passages, which help illuminate the meaning of those passages. I would commend the dissertation to all interested: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=5564&context=etd

Had it not been for Rob's persistence, I would have missed the blessing of wandering deeper into the light. For that I thank him, just as I am grateful for other tribulations and irritation from whence I derived my greatest growth.

Granted, my exchanges with him have also activated the less civil elements of my character, but there to I am given opportunity for growth and reminded of my need for increased humility.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

49 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I getting more confused - Are lots and lots in danger because they have not repented of "ALL" their sins???  Have you repented of all yours?????  Are you cleansed and pure - spotless 100%???  Are you awake and trying to awaken those that have missed something?  I am a 5th generation Member - my father, mother, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cozens and many friends (baptized members and sealed in the temple) – some of which have died thinking there are 3 degrees of heavenly glory.  Is this a tiny sin that keeps them from being cleansed and pure 100%?  Are they going to outer darkness just for that?

Now I will ask a very hard question concerning pride (obviously because I struggle a lot with pride) – Is pride thinking you need to get others to do or think more (or different) than what you are willing?

 

The Traveler

Im trying to establish the reality that perfection is required for salvation but that attainment cant happen in this life alone.

[estradling75]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

So then, according to ths scripture, do all the saved receive eternal life?

This has been discussed and explained.  You will not accept it and that is your right... But I have no desire to waste further time on you

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, let's carry on a conversation anyway.

Well lets see if we can.  I problem I have always found with a progression between Kingdoms model is... If we will all eventually reach Exaltation then why exactly are we told that "now is the time to prepare" and not to "procrastinate the day of our repentance."  It seems to me if I can pick up everything I need later why not have sinful fun now?

The only way any kind of urgency matters now is if it is not possible to do it later.

[zil]

7 minutes ago, wenglund said:

For the most part, I agree.

However, I offer one exception. Discussions with Rob have caused me to drill down much deeper into my own beliefs and test the less sure portions. I am also caused to openly consider differing perspectives, which helps broaden the horizons of my understanding..

I may not have changed Rob's mind, but at least I have provided him with that opportunity to do so, and in the process I have changed my mind for the better in growth. 

In this discussion I have not only strengthened my belief in the modern understanding of the heavens, but I have also learned several new things.  In fact, late last night in my research on Section 76, I came across a wonderful dissertation examining the section as literature. Not only did I learn that there was a poem written by Joseph Smith (likely with the help of W.W. Phelps) intimately related to Section 76, titled "The Vision," but I was also educated on the chiasmic structure of several key passages, which help illuminate the meaning of those passages. I would commend the dissertation to all interested: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=5564&context=etd

Had it not been for Rob's persistence, I would have missed the blessing of wandering deeper into the light. For that I thank him, just as I am grateful for other tribulations and irritation from whence I derived my greatest growth.

Granted, my exchanges with him have also activated the less civil elements of my character, but there to I am given opportunity for growth and reminded of my need for increased humility.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

To add to that... When this revelation was declared to the membership, the people had a hard time with it because it sounded too much like universalism

I wasn't aware until last night that Brigham Young was numbered among the members who were initially challenged by the vision:

Quote

"in his historical development of the doctrine and covenants Woodford provides verification of this struggle among church members even such stalwarts stalwarts as brigham young after all my traditions were such that when the vision came first to me it was so directly contrary and opposed to my former education I said wait a little  I did not reject it but I could not understand it (929)" (as quoted HERE, p. 84) 

 The problem, then, isn't in having difficulty with the revelation, but in not humbly submitting to it and letting it open the eyes of our understanding.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[person0]

18 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The only way any kind of urgency matters now is if it is not possible to do it later.

Melvin J. Ballard posited that it takes 3x as long to repent and change aspects of our character and behavior outside of mortality than it would take us during mortality.  I disagree with the notion of progression between kingdoms, however, I wonder if the 3x as much effort would be enough of a reason for urgency?

Edited April 6, 2018 by person0

[Rob Osborn]

25 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

This has been discussed and explained.  You will not accept it and that is your right... But I have no desire to waste further time on you

So, Im assuming then that you say "yes all those saved from hell receive eternal life". Am I wrong in this assumption?

[Jersey Boy]

On 4/4/2018 at 6:53 PM, SilentOne said:

@Jersey Boy FYI, @Rob Osborn's theory of the plan of salvation as I understand it is that we are now in the Telestial Kingdom. After death, we will go to the Terrestrial Kingdom to learn and progress until we are ready to enter the Celestial Kingdom. In the end, everybody ends up either saved/exalted in the Celestial Kingdom or damned in hell/Outer Darkness.

Then how do you account for the plain and unambiguous doctrinal declarations in D&C 76 that there are three discrete heavenly kingdoms of glory that saved humanity will inherit after the final judgement? The 76th section teaches us that the Celestial glory can be likened to the brightness of the sun, the Terrestrial glory can be likened to the reflected brightness of the moon, and the Telestial glory can be likened to the brightness of the distant stars? Do you reject the teachings of D&C 76 pertaining to these three kingdoms of glory?

It’s also plainly obvious that in LDS theology there are two kinds of Telestial kingdoms, one of them being the dwelling place of fallen premillennial mortal mankind and the other being the dwelling place of those saved resurrected human beings who are no able to inherit nor appreciate an everlasting existence in either the Celestial or Terrestrial kingdoms of glory. This is very basic and easy to understand LDS doctrine and I’m somewhat mystified that there seem to be members of the Church who either don’t believe in the three degrees of post-resurrected glory or have somehow missed it.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[estradling75]

23 minutes ago, person0 said:

Melvin J. Ballard posited that it takes 3x as long to repent and change aspects of our character and behavior outside of mortality than it would take us during mortality.  I disagree with the notion of progression between kingdoms, however, I wonder if the 3x as much effort would be enough of a reason for urgency?

That is a possibility.. but like you I wonder how much extra time/effort is needed to offset having eternity to do it in.