Doctrine and Revelation

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Dodge.  Sigh.

I mean really- what is it profiting us to fight over who is right versus trying to look at the issues with an open mind? 

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Like I said.  He never actually answers questions.  He think he does.  But as you say, it is simply a jade's trick.

There goes the peanut gallery again...

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

Dodge.  Sigh.

Which everyone here knew he was going to do.

Mormon HUB is clearly and unmistakably PRO_LDS church and its leadership.. including such notions as being Lead By God through his prophets.

Rob comes here and declares the prophets wrong, mistaken and in error on a major and fundamental teaching.  And then wonders why he provokes a hostile reaction.

Its like going on to a Fountain Pen fan website and declaring that "Fountain Pens Suck"  Or any other fansite and declaring that whatever that site is devoted to is a pile of crap while at the same time trying to say they are a "Fan"

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I mean really- what is it profiting us to fight over who is right versus trying to look at the issues with an open mind? 

You have nothing approaching an open mind on the question of the three degrees of glory.

For 1.5 years, the rest of us have refused to move a millimeter in your direction on the issue.

I was sincere in asking what good you think has come from all this "neither party is budging an inch" for the past 1.5 years.

I am sincere in asking whether you honestly think anyone is ever going to budge on this.

And if you do think anyone is going to budge, on what do you base that thought, because 1.5 years of back and forth say no one is going to budge.

And if you do NOT think anyone is going to budge, why continue? (You understand, do you not, that it's you, and you alone who cause this to continue?  If you stop talking about your opinions in regards to the three degrees of glory, everyone stops telling you you're wrong.  Keep silent, and everyone else is silent.  Speak only the Church's teachings, and no one will counter you.  You are the one causing this stalemate to continue for 1.5 years.  It's like watching permanent 5 year-olds saying "are too" "am not" over and over and over to the end of eternity.)

Edited April 20, 2018 by zil

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, estradling75 said:

Which everyone here knew he was going to do.

Mormon HUB is clearly and unmistakably PRO_LDS church and its leadership.. including such notions as being Lead By God through his prophets.

Rob comes here and declares the prophets wrong, mistaken and in error on a major and fundamental teaching.  And then wonders why he provokes a hostile reaction.

Its like going on to a Fountain Pen fan website and declaring that "Fountain Pens Suck"  Or any other fansite and declaring that whatever that site is devoted to is a pile of crap while at the same time trying to say they are a "Fan"

I dont think thats fair. I post on a lot of topics where no one says anything. On the topic of heaven and hell I always quote scripture. Who wrote the scriptures? The prophets. Thats all, lets move along.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, zil said:

You have nothing approaching an open mind on the question of the three degrees of glory.

For 1.5 years, the rest of us have refused to move a millimeter in your direction on the issue.

I was sincere in asking what good you think has come from all this "neither party is budging an inch" for the past 1.5 years.

I am sincere in asking whether you honestly think anyone is ever going to budge on this.

And if you do think anyone is going to budge, on what do you base that thought, because 1.5 years of back and forth say no one is going to budge.

And if you do NOT think anyone is going to budge, why continue? (You understand, do you not, that it's you, and you alone who cause this to continue?  If you stop talking about your opinions in regards to the three degrees of glory, everyone stops telling you your wrong.  Keep silent, and everyone else is silent.  Speak only the Church's teachings, and no one will counter you.  You are the one causing this stalemate to continue for 1.5 years.  It's like watching permanent 5 year-olds saying "are too" "am not" over and over and over to the end of eternity.)

I have actually had a lot of private conversations with people who want to know more and willing to listen. Your perception isnt true.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have actually had a lot of private conversations with people who want to know more and willing to listen. Your perception isnt true.

Which just confirms you're successfully leading people away from the prophets of God and the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I cannot for the life of me understand why the owners of this site give you a platform to preach from.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Its like going on to a Fountain Pen fan website and declaring that "Fountain Pens Suck"  Or any other fansite and declaring that whatever that site is devoted to is a pile of crap while at the same time trying to say they are a "Fan"

Dang It!  I was jut going to do that.  But now that you'd compare me to Rob, well... I guess I'll refrain.

[Vort]

Discussion lists suck.

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, zil said:

Which just confirms you're successfully leading people away from the prophets of God and the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I cannot for the life of me understand why the owners of this site give you a platform to preach from.

Again, your perception is wrong. Most of my private conversations have nothing to do with the three glories. They are private for a reason and they have nothing to do with leading people away. Your accusatiobs are a perfect example of bearing false witness.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, zil said:

Which just confirms you're successfully leading people away from the prophets of God and the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

That only happens because people like to look at a pretty building without examining its foundation.  Rob has no foundation.  But he has definitely put together a fantastic looking building.  Where have I heard that before?

13 minutes ago, zil said:

I cannot for the life of me understand why the owners of this site give you a platform to preach from.

Because, the forum rules don't say that you can't teach false doctrine.  He's skated the line just like several other people here.  None of them are being kicked off the forum either.

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, Carborendum said:

That only happens because people like to look at a pretty building without examining its foundation.  Rob has no foundation.  But he has definitely put together a fantastic looking building.  Where have I heard that before?

Because, the forum rules don't say that you can't teach false doctrine.  He's skated the line just like several other people here.  None of them are being kicked off the forum either.

Who says Im preaching false doctrine? 

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Dang It!  I was jut going to do that.  But now that you'd compare me to Rob, well... I guess I'll refrain.

Yeah if you go to someone else website and post your ideas and get told by dozens of the members of the group that your ideas are contrary to the sites purpose...  You'd have to be a bit full of yourself to think that what you are doing is really OK.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Again, your perception is wrong. Most of my private conversations have nothing to do with the three glories. They are private for a reason and they have nothing to do with leading people away. Your accusatiobs are a perfect example of bearing false witness.

Ah classic Rob

Zil says: No one is listening to your concepts about the degrees of glory.

Rob: Actually I've had plenty of private conversations where people want to know more.

Zil: Well that's what worries us, that you might actually get others to listen to your ideas about the degrees of glory.

Rob: My private conversations have nothing to do with the degrees of glory!

Just classic Rob.

And I'm the one being "obtuse".

Edited April 20, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Ah classic Rob

Zil says: No one is listening to your concepts about the degrees of glory.

Rob: Actually I've had plenty of private conversations where people want to know more.

Zil: Well that's what worries us, that you might actually get others to listen to your ideas about the degrees of glory.

Rob: My private conversations have nothing to do with the degrees of glory!

Just classic Rob.

And I'm the one being "obtuse".

Out of context again. I said most of my private conversations dont deal with the three degrees. Honestly I will tell you- they deal with principles of saving. Whereas they are related they arent specifically on the three glories. Again you jump the gun then manipulate. Thats bearing false witness.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Out of context again. I said most of my private conversations dont deal with the three degrees. Honestly I will tell you- they deal with principles of saving. Whereas they are related they arent specifically on the three glories. Again you jump the gun then manipulate. Thats bearing false witness.

So what? It's still a classic misdirect by you. She was clearly saying the ones that "are" about the three degrees...the one's you're talking about having as evidence that some people care about your philosophies, are the ones that concern us. For you to say that "most" of your aren't about that is irrelevant. You're the one who can't seem to keep context straight.

[Anddenex]

On 4/18/2018 at 10:06 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, some people dont like to address truth found in scripture so they go find some statement by a prophet that supports their worldview but then wont admit they are wrong...just sayin. Then when you corner them with truth they get all arrogant and ignore you and repeat the same quote over and over again...

To make myself clear, viewing how other posts are going in this thread, this is not directly towards you Rob as I have come across similar statements by others on this forum and outside when I used to debate on Youtube (fun years).  My first thought always has been I wonder if people sense/get the irony of the elements within this statement:

1) Scriptures
2) Truth
3) Propehts
4) Right vs. Wrong
5) Arrogance and Ignoring

The irony is that our scriptures come from prophets whose words weren't immediately canon. We are using scripture (prophetic words from prophets) while telling someone who is seeking out other words of prophets (which is what we all should be doing), while telling them they are wrong because the prophet's interpretation of scripture differs from how you (general) are interpreting scripture -- and then calling it truth.

Often I would hear a similar statement from a non-Mormon who would say, "I am sharing with you the scriptures, and you are denying truth"! No, what I am denying is their "interpretation of truth", and seeking out other prophets (modern prophets) interpretation of the scripture they are sharing isn't something we should dismiss. It is something we should carefully consider less we find ourselves similar to the Pharisees who would turn to scripture when the Lord was giving them the interpretation (his words weren't scripture/canon) as we now consider it. Which is why people who currently reject prophetic interpretation (modern which has not yet been canonized) should be cautious. Even our Lord's words, when first spoken, while he was upon the earth were not "canon". They were written down later, and became canon (although they still had the same power and truth without it being written).

Many a Protestant Christian felt similar, cornered them with "truth" -- their interpretation of truth -- and they felt the same way with all Mormons who wouldn't listen to their interpretation. It has nothing to do with not admitting they are wrong. What they are admitting is that they don't agree with a personal interpretation of scripture and are providing authorized sources of interpretation. This isn't wrong. This isn't bad. This is good.

The additional irony follows this question, when scripture is shared, and other prophetic words are shared in correlation with this scripture, who is cornering who with truth?

Edited April 20, 2018 by Anddenex

[The Folk Prophet]

43 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I used to debate on Youtube (fun years).

I knew you were crazy!

[Vort]

The idea of "canonical law" and having a textual "canon" of scriptures is of Roman Catholic origin, where the canon was established by Papal pronouncement. I have a vague childhood memory of learning that Joseph Smith once bragged that the Latter-day Saints had neither canon nor articles of faith, being guided instead by the Spirit of prophecy and revelation. I don't know if this is true, and I'm not going to do homework about it right now; but if it is, the irony is evident that Joseph Smith himself authored the Latter-day Saint Articles of Faith, and his teachings and revelations have become the Mormon canon.

From the beginning of the Restoration of all things, our prophets have insisted that everything taught by the Spirit is scripture. The very idea of "canonical scripture" is a way to establish an appeal to authority: I am right because the Canonical Guide to All Things Holy says thus-and-such, which is exactly what I'M saying, so therefore I'm right and you're wrong, case closed. Save for some light mitigation on how we may seek to terminate conversation, I think we all have used and probably still use this line of thinking. But I suspect that when we grow humble enough and seek the Spirit enough, both individually and as a people, we will be taught from on high and not have to settle for the ersatz doctrine of appeal to canonical authority.

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

But I suspect that when we grow humble enough and seek the Spirit enough,...

The problem, of course, is in the word bolded above.

I've always considered this line of thinking less than ideal as well -- meaning thinking of ourselves as "we" -- as if I or you or anyone has any real control over the "we". We ultimately only have control over the "me".

That's one of the reasons the various, oft occurring, "We need to [blah blah blah]..." type post that come along are so useless in my opinion. Do people really believe that by posting "We need to stop judging" or "We need to stop being cultural Mormons", or the like that anything is going to change?

We need to stop doing that.

Useful of me to say, eh? I bet all posts like that no longer happen in the inter-web-world moving forward now.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The problem, of course, is in the word bolded above.

I've always considered this line of thinking less than ideal as well -- meaning thinking of ourselves as "we" -- as if I or you or anyone has any real control over the "we". We ultimately only have control over the "me".

That's one of the reasons the various, oft occurring, "We need to [blah blah blah]..." type post that come along are so useless in my opinion. Do people really believe that by posting "We need to stop judging" or "We need to stop being cultural Mormons", or the like that anything is going to change?

We need to stop doing that.

Useful of me to say, eh? I bet all posts like that no longer happen in the inter-web-world moving forward now.

I chose the word carefully, because receiving revelation in this way is not only an individual matter. The Church membership as a whole must achieve a worthy condition in order to receive this blessing.

For example, the Saints were (probably still are) under condemnation for not taking the Book of Mormon seriously enough, individual worthiness notwithstanding. Similarly, if we want to enjoy the blessings of open revelation that God has in store for us, we as a people must become worthy of it.

Individual worthiness is an important precondition, but in mathematical terms, it's necessary but insufficient.

[The Folk Prophet]

53 minutes ago, Vort said:

I chose the word carefully, because receiving revelation in this way is not only an individual matter. The Church membership as a whole must achieve a worthy condition in order to receive this blessing.

For example, the Saints were (probably still are) under condemnation for not taking the Book of Mormon seriously enough, individual worthiness notwithstanding. Similarly, if we want to enjoy the blessings of open revelation that God has in store for us, we as a people must become worthy of it.

Individual worthiness is an important precondition, but in mathematical terms, it's necessary but insufficient.

That is all true. It doesn't change the fact that we, individually, do not have control of the we, collectively. Individual worthiness is, truly, all we should be fully concerned with. (Of course individual worthiness means that we love our fellow man as our ourselves, etc. But we can't force their agency).

Of course I'm not suggesting this by way of debate or anything. Just chatting.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

For example, the Saints were (probably still are) under condemnation for not taking the Book of Mormon seriously enough, individual worthiness notwithstanding. Similarly, if we want to enjoy the blessings of open revelation that God has in store for us, we as a people must become worthy of it.

I have felt for a long time we discount the pure doctrine of Christ found in the Book of Mormon in favor of newer fuzzy doctrines and beliefs that appeal to our senses. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

The idea of "canonical law" and having a textual "canon" of scriptures is of Roman Catholic origin, where the canon was established by Papal pronouncement. I have a vague childhood memory of learning that Joseph Smith once bragged that the Latter-day Saints had neither canon nor articles of faith, being guided instead by the Spirit of prophecy and revelation.

...

From the beginning of the Restoration of all things, our prophets have insisted that everything taught by the Spirit is scripture. 

If that were to be taken literally as you've presented, then the obvious question is:  why have written scriptures at all? 

Answer: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/01/elder-bruce-r-mcconkie-of-the-council-of-the-twelve?lang=eng

Quote

People who study the scriptures get a dimension to their life that nobody else gets and that can't be gained in any way except by studying the scriptures. There's an increase in faith and a desire to do what's right and a feeling of inspiration and understanding that comes to people who study the gospel - and who ponder the principles, that can't come in any other way.

Bruce R. McConkie

I've heard of Elder McConkie saying that the only reason to read and study the Bible is to gain a better understanding of the Book of Mormon.

I've also heard that the only reason to read and study the Book of Mormon is so we can be more in tune with the Holy Ghost.

I know that we need to be in tune with the Holy Ghost is to lead us to Christ.

I know that we need to come to Christ to partake of His Atonement.

I know that we need to partake of His atonement is to gain Eternal Life.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Guest

[Colirio]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

From the beginning of the Restoration of all things, our prophets have insisted that everything taught by the Spirit is scripture. 

 

2 Nephi 29:3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

.....

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? .....

.....

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.