Interesting MoTab guest conductor

[Overwatch]

Just now, bytebear said:

You're judging me now?  Wow. Just wow.

Do you need my validation? Stop being weak bro. Getting too hot for you in the kitchen?  You might want to leave. Your offended tactics aren't going to work. 

[bytebear]

1 minute ago, Overwatch said:

Do you need my validation? Stop being weak bro. Getting too hot for you in the kitchen?  You might want to leave. Your offended tactics aren't going to work. 

No, I think you don't understand the gospel at all though.  And I will pray for you.

[Overwatch]

Just now, bytebear said:

No, I think you don't understand the gospel at all though.  And I will pray for you.

Haha. Good, praying is a good thing. 

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, bytebear said:

You're judging me now?  Wow. Just wow.

Role reversal sucks.

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

That was a nuke. Well put. 

Its a nuke that turns on the sender.

Christ ministered to all out of love...

He got accused of dining with publicans and sinners...(aka supporting them) by people that thought they knew better

The church is ministering to all out of love...

They are being accused of supporting sin... by people who claim to know better.

For those that claim that the Church is being lead by God...  But are being quite vocal in their disagreement with this action...  Well they might want to ponder on how such actions sustain leaders called by God.

[Vort]

Just now, estradling75 said:

Its a nuke that turns on the sender.

Christ ministered to all out of love...

He got accused of dining with publicans and sinners...(aka supporting them) by people that thought they knew better

The church is ministering to all out of love...

They are being accused of supporting sin... by people who claim to know better.

For those that claim that the Church is being lead by God...  But are being quite vocal in their disagreement with this action...  Well they might want to ponder on how such actions sustain leaders called by God.

You might want to review my express purpose for posting. I mentioned it at least twice, so it's not a secret.

[Overwatch]

13 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

For those that claim that the Church is being lead by God...  But are being quite vocal in their disagreement with this action...  Well they might want to ponder on how such actions sustain leaders called by God

This type of thinking can lead down forbidden roads, just as one constantly questioning the brethren. We must never forget that all mortals are imperfect and just because one holds office doesn't mean they are completely unable to transgress or sin. 

If one day the brethren will authorize something that is completely and utterly against my morals I will gladly hand my temple recommend back to the bishop. In the meantime I will call things as I see them and allow you the same privilege as a person. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Overwatch

[bytebear]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

Consider the following people who identify themselves primarily or largely by sinful practices:

• An open pedophile, e.g. a member of NAMBLA
• A polygamist spokesman for the southern Utah fundamentalists
• A representative of a polyamory group
• The president of the National Abortion Rights Action League
• The CEO of a large cigarette company

Which of these individuals would be publicly invited and welcomed to conduct the Mormon Tabernacle Choir?

Why the difference?

I'm going back to your original comment. 

The difference is, the church doesn't have teenagers and young adults leaving the church in droves because they are pedophiles, polygamists, abortionists or smokers.

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, bytebear said:

I'm going back to your original comment. 

The difference is, the church doesn't have teenagers and young adults leaving the church in droves because they are pedophiles, polygamists, abortionists or smokers.

I bet there are more LDS teens that have smoked than that are homosexual.

But whether that's true or not, are you saying that if lots of LDS girls were aborting their babies and leaving the Church, then the Mormon Tabernacle Choir would invite the president of NARAL to conduct? Or if LDS youth were leaving in droves because the Church didn't approve of pedophilia, then the Choir would invite a leader in NAMBLA to conduct? Or if loads of LDS kids were leaving because the Church frowns on smoking pot, then the Choir would invite an official from NORML to conduct?

I disbelieve it.

[bytebear]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

I bet there are more LDS teens that have smoked than that are homosexual.

But whether that's true or not, are you saying that if lots of LDS girls were aborting their babies and leaving the Church, then the Mormon Tabernacle Choir would invite the president of NARAL to conduct? Or if LDS youth were leaving in droves because the Church didn't approve of pedophilia, then the Choir would invite a leader in NAMBLA to conduct? Or if loads of LDS kids were leaving because the Church frowns on smoking pot, then the Choir would invite an official from NORML to conduct?

I disbelieve it.

I'm saying the Lord knows more than you do.

[Vort]

Just now, bytebear said:

I'm saying the Lord knows more than you do.

Let's review what you actually wrote:

18 minutes ago, bytebear said:

The difference is, the church doesn't have teenagers and young adults leaving the church in droves because they are pedophiles, polygamists, abortionists or smokers.

Hmmm. Nope, I'm confident that what you wrote above definitely does not mean "the Lord knows more than you do".

[bytebear]

Yes it means exactly that.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, bytebear said:

Yes it means exactly that.

I disbelieve you. You have already proven yourself much less than reliable in this thread.

[bytebear]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

I disbelieve you. You have already proven yourself much less than reliable in this thread.

In your opinion.  Which goes against the actions of the church.  I think I will still with the "unreliable"

[Vort]

51 minutes ago, bytebear said:

54 minutes ago, Vort said:

I disbelieve you. You have already proven yourself much less than reliable in this thread.

In your opinion.  Which goes against the actions of the church.  I think I will still with the "unreliable"

Let's see if I follow your line of reasoning. My opinion is that you are unreliable, since you have openly ignored my statements and imputed to me ideas that I explicitly disclaimed. But this opinion of your unreliability goes against the actions of the church -- meaning, I take it, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In short: My opinion that you are unreliable because of your previous false statements goes against the Church.

bytebear, the first rule for when you find yourself in a hole is to quit digging. You might want to heed that advice.

[Grunt]

7 hours ago, bytebear said:

Hmm.. committed monogamous relationship between two adults, compared to heterosexual who sluts around, has multiple abortions, passes around STDs, and also violates the sexual laws of God.  Yep, exactly the same.  <eye roll>   Seems you are a bit hung up on this particular sin.  Now, wasn't someone saying which person they would rather have conduct the Mormon Tabernacle Choir?  I think I know my choice.

Hung up on a particular sin?  I didn’t choose this sin to make websites about, headline, and invite to conduct.   I’m reacting to the thrust.  Starting headlining other sins who are actively attempting to promote their sin and I’ll react accordingly 

[Grunt]

7 hours ago, bytebear said:

We've already normalized premarital sex. And yet, we don't shun people who lived together before marriage, or even those living in sin, as it were.

I feel you are REALLY missing the point others are making.  We ACCEPT people who sin as you’ve stated.  We don’t invite Sally to conduct MoTab BECAUSE she’s a single mother of three living unmarried with 2 lovers and headline it.  We will welcome her to fellowship with us.  We may invite her to conduct because she’s an awesome conductor and highlight her conducting.  

[Grunt]

7 hours ago, bytebear said:

You know what I think? I think the sin of abandoning your children is a greater sin, and I believe the church thinks so too, particularly those who's children were born in the covenant. And that is the crisis that is facing the church right now. 

I agree.  Maybe we should find a few fathers who have abandoned their children, make that their identity, then glorify the behavior by having them conduct the choir.  

[Grunt]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

 

For those that claim that the Church is being lead by God...  But are being quite vocal in their disagreement with this action...  Well they might want to ponder on how such actions sustain leaders called by God.

That’s why I said I didn’t want to argue about it.  If I didn’t, I’d tithe to other sources like many others do.  

Just because I sustain the church doesn’t mean I can’t question it.  I’m just not sure this is the correct way.  I’m glad it happens, though.  It opens my eyes to the motives of other members.  

As Saints, we’re encouraged to ask questions about many things we don’t understand.  

[zil]

10 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

Okay--I think I get the point you're making now.

Skimmed over this talk: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks_free-agency-freedom/

Is this what you mean?

Yes.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

That’s why I said I didn’t want to argue about it.  If I didn’t, I’d tithe to other sources like many others do.  

Just because I sustain the church doesn’t mean I can’t question it.  I’m just not sure this is the correct way.  I’m glad it happens, though.  It opens my eyes to the motives of other members.  

As Saints, we’re encouraged to ask questions about many things we don’t understand.  

Oh I agree, no doubt.

How it works though is when we agree with the brethren, we tell everyone else to not question them. When we disagree with them, then it's a-okay to ask questions. 

[Grunt]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Oh I agree, no doubt.

How it works though is when we agree with the brethren, we tell everyone else to not question them. When we disagree with them, then it's a-okay to ask questions. 

I’m not even saying I disagree, which is why it’s hard to discuss.  It seems like you disagree.  I’m saying on the face it seems horrible to me.  I fully understand that I likely just don’t understand.  I want to, though.  I don’t like feeling this way.  

[NeuroTypical]

Folks, let's keep it from getting personal please.  Or to put it better, stop making it personal please, or I'll close the thread. 

Rules 3 & 4: Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.       No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

People get to be wrong.  They get to be boneheaded.  They get to have massive gaps in logic, and believe unsupportable things, and believe things based on lies sown by lucifer.  It ain't your job to fix them.  If you think you've got a better or more righteous way of seeing things, offer it to everyone like you'd offer a cookie to someone.  Trying to convince them they are using the wrong cookie hand, or some such, really isn't helpful.

[Overwatch]

14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Folks, let's keep it from getting personal please.  Or to put it better, stop making it personal please, or I'll close the thread. 

Rules 3 & 4: Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.       No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

People get to be wrong.  They get to be boneheaded.  They get to have massive gaps in logic, and believe unsupportable things, and believe things based on lies sown by lucifer.  It ain't your job to fix them.  If you think you've got a better or more righteous way of seeing things, offer it to everyone like you'd offer a cookie to someone.  Trying to convince them they are using the wrong cookie hand, or some such, really isn't helpful.

Cool. I appreciate you writing this. I am straight forward with my responses but I know others try to hide insults to get around the rules. I personally will work on being more kind, even though I don't agree with things some people say.

* I know this was aimed at everyone here

 

thanks

[estradling75]

11 hours ago, Vort said:

You might want to review my express purpose for posting. I mentioned it at least twice, so it's not a secret.

see below

4 hours ago, Grunt said:

That’s why I said I didn’t want to argue about it.  If I didn’t, I’d tithe to other sources like many others do.  

Just because I sustain the church doesn’t mean I can’t question it.  I’m just not sure this is the correct way.  I’m glad it happens, though.  It opens my eyes to the motives of other members.  

As Saints, we’re encouraged to ask questions about many things we don’t understand.  

Which is why my statement encouraged people to ponder how there current actions and statements are being received.  Because there can be a big disconnect between what we intend our actions to accomplish... and what they really do.  And Christ judges us on both.

As for me... I can't tell you why the church did this because I was not involved in making those choices.  However I can guess half of a dozen different reasons, some not all that favorable.  

But when it comes to sustaining I also apply the Golden Rule.  Treat other as you would be treated.  If I was called to control the MoTab as flawed as I am, I would want people to assume that I am actively seeking the Lord's will and doing my best to discover said will and do it.  Since that is want I would want all the different reasons I might guess get filtered through that and I only talk about the ideas that pass through that test. 

I know that I most definitely would not want people who have no real understanding of all the situation and absolutely no stewardship or authority to approach the Lord in the matter and seek his will to be publicly second guessing me, and calling into question my loyalty, faithfulness or understanding of the gospel.  Directly or indirectly.