Socialized medicine

[Just_A_Guy]

On 7/31/2018 at 7:32 PM, Scott said:

Here's another question.   

Do you (anyone in this thread) feel that the insurance company is being ethical for not paying much of our medical bills even though we have paid into the system for 27 years?

1.  Have you run numbers to figure out how much you’ve paid in over the years, versus how much they’ve paid out?

2.  Speaking in the abstract—if it turned out that your insurer has actually paid out *far* more than you paid them over the life of the contract; is it really “ethical” to demand that they fork over even more money if your contract does not require that they do so?  President Young hints at this in his quote on capitalism that you cite earlier; but it’s so easy for us to expect to reap all the benefits of a good deal for ourselves, whilst insisting that the other party to a bad deal offset our own losses for “ethical” reasons.  

[estradling75]

Part of the reason Healthcare (and health insurance) is such a problem (and avoids the corrective power of the free market) is that the cost and options are hidden to the end user.  Until the bill come due.

How many people would Order food at a restaurant, or buy a car, or even a home without knowing what the bill was going to be?  Any reasonable thought shows this to be foolish.  Yet it happens all the time in health care.

Compare taking your car in for tune up verse taking your self in for a check up.  Chances are the service shop for your car will have a big old board showing the services and the typical cost for those services.  If you can't afford a service you need you can shop around for a better deal, or find a way to get the money or do without...  And you figure all this out before you do the transaction.

You go to the Doctor's office you have no idea what service they offer or at what price.  When you are told you need something the most common question isn't "how much?" its "Will my insurance cover it?"  And the moment someone else foots the bill (even if it is an insurance company we paid into) we kill the free market drive.  Or at the very least we transfer if from ourselves to the one paying the bill. In this case the insurance company and they are in the business to make money so not surprisingly they squeeze everything and everyone they can.  The bigger they are the harder they can squeeze.  They squeeze the Doctor/Hospital dictating how much and what can be done.. (Just about every Doctor I have talked to would love to not have to deal with Insurance companies) this leads to the Doctor/Hospital trying to recoup cost from those that can't squeeze so hard.  They squeeze the customer dictating quality of care and who and what can provide it (because they will not cover anything else).

That is a problem that gets compounded by the fact that if you need urgent care you really do not have time or the inclination to "Shop around"

 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, zil said:

I hope your brother is better now.

Thanks for asking - he did almost pass out a couple of days after we left Norway but following that - he has had no more problems.  He is convinced that while under care he was given a muscle relaxer that allowed him to pass the stone(s) - which he claims was not as easy as it sounds.  As we have talked and I have asked what he would have changed - he responded that the best cure for a kidney stone is simply to pass it - which he claims is impossible without some way to avert the pain and relax muscles.  His advice - if someone is in a country with government health care with a kidney stone; would be to forgo the treatment and get some illegal drugs and treat themselves long enough to relax, overcome the pain and pass the stone(s).

 

The Traveler

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

get some illegal drugs

There's a ringing endorsement of socialized medicine!

My uncle swore by the "asparagus and Coke" method - wherein you eat a can of asparagus (cuz it makes your urine smell in a distinct way), then drink a six-pack of Coke as quickly as you can (which in theory will dissolve the stone), and when the unique odor is passed, you know the Coke has either done its job or wasn't good enough.  (Assumes, of course, a certain level of severity hasn't been reached.)

Maybe that would be worth it before risking the illegal drugs.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Part of the reason Healthcare (and health insurance) is such a problem (and avoids the corrective power of the free market) is that the cost and options are hidden to the end user.  Until the bill come due.

 

And this is because the USA is, generally, a compassionate country.  It rankles their nature to put a monetary value to human life.  This idealism is generally good but has its downsides like you mention above.

In the Philippines, we don't have that luxury.  Filipinos understand rich people have access to more healthcare.  They mitigate this by having a lot of cousins such that it's not surprising to claim a cousin because his grandma and your grandma were classmates in first grade.  So, this is the attitude in rural Philippines - you broke your arm?  What are you, a moron?  You think we're rich that you can just jump off the 3rd story window thinking you can Parkour?  You better hope your uncles will help us with that bill, or you're just going to have to live the rest of your life with a U shaped forearm!   You got cancer?  Yep, you're dead in 3 months.  Pray daily and may the Lord bless and keep you the rest of your days.  We ain't got no money for that.  Your brothers still have to finish college and tuition is due.

So poor people go to the hospital.  They bring bananas to hopefully use for payment.  Doctors see them and realize they can't possibly pay for the care they need, so they give them a saline shot and tell them they're going to feel better soon.  Interestingly, that works a lot of times.  Self-healing is a real thing!

Westerners are shocked by this even as they can't escape the fact that Magic Johnson is still alive with HIV.

Edited August 2, 2018 by anatess2

[wenglund]

23 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Part of the reason Healthcare (and health insurance) is such a problem (and avoids the corrective power of the free market) is that the cost and options are hidden to the end user.  Until the bill come due.

How many people would Order food at a restaurant, or buy a car, or even a home without knowing what the bill was going to be?  Any reasonable thought shows this to be foolish.  Yet it happens all the time in health care.

Compare taking your car in for tune up verse taking your self in for a check up.  Chances are the service shop for your car will have a big old board showing the services and the typical cost for those services.  If you can't afford a service you need you can shop around for a better deal, or find a way to get the money or do without...  And you figure all this out before you do the transaction.

You go to the Doctor's office you have no idea what service they offer or at what price.  When you are told you need something the most common question isn't "how much?" its "Will my insurance cover it?"  And the moment someone else foots the bill (even if it is an insurance company we paid into) we kill the free market drive.  Or at the very least we transfer if from ourselves to the one paying the bill. In this case the insurance company and they are in the business to make money so not surprisingly they squeeze everything and everyone they can.  The bigger they are the harder they can squeeze.  They squeeze the Doctor/Hospital dictating how much and what can be done.. (Just about every Doctor I have talked to would love to not have to deal with Insurance companies) this leads to the Doctor/Hospital trying to recoup cost from those that can't squeeze so hard.  They squeeze the customer dictating quality of care and who and what can provide it (because they will not cover anything else).

That is a problem that gets compounded by the fact that if you need urgent care you really do not have time or the inclination to "Shop around"

 

Your astute point is further exacerbated by the fact that the price is "negotiated" via a third party (insurance companies) rather than directly with the customer.

Imagine going in for a tune-up realizing you have to first check to see if the shop is in the car serving "insurance" network, and also determine whether the tune up is covered by the insurance. And,  assuming it is, you will likely get charged a co-pay for the service, and this in addition to huge monthly premiums, and also assuming that you have already met the deductible. Then, a month or so after the service you receive the bill and discover the enormous cost. And, sadly, seeing the enormous costs tends to make us thankful we have the insurance since we would likely have gone broke if we had to pay for it all on our own. . .that is, until we learn that there are auto shops in other nations where the service is a fraction of the cost.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 3, 2018 by wenglund