Any guesses on the grand things?

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, zil said:

So you believe in a second mortal experience - at least for men?

I’m still working out the details.  

I would not be suprised at all if progression and further testing continues to occur throughout our eternities.

I cant imaging anyone being given power and authority without earning the right.  This life is an excellent training program.  I don’t believe in lotteries.  How many lottery winners blow all the money and end up in a worse state after winning all the money they didnt earn.

I believe in perfection - eventually.

When I partake of the Sacrament, I both reflect on the past and consider the future.  

And I have the highest respect for Women.  I don’t know what is instore for our elect daughters of God but I am sure it is equally challenging.  

Consider this quote -

The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843)

 

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I’m still working out the details.  

I would not be suprised at all if progression and further testing continues to occur throughout our eternities.

I cant imaging anyone being given power and authority without earning the right.  This life is an excellent training program.  I don’t believe in lotteries.  How many lottery winners blow all the money and end up in a worse state after winning all the money they didnt earn.

I believe in perfection - eventually.

When I partake of the Sacrament, I both reflect on the past and consider the future.  

And I have the highest respect for Women.  I don’t know what is instore for our elect daughters of God but I am sure it is equally challenging.  

Consider this quote -

The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." (Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843)

 

 

 

Personal speculation...

I don't buy into it at all.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

that He [God the Father] once was a man like one of us and that God Himself, the Father of us all, once dwelled on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did in the flesh and like us.

What did Jesus say?—As the Father has power in Himself, even so has the Son power in himself. To do what? Why, what the Father did. That answer is obvious; even in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? “To lay down my life as my Father laid down His body that I might take it up again.” Do you believe it? If you don’t believe it, you don’t believe the Bible.

Two of the passages from the April 7, 1844 discourse.

From the first line I get that, 1) the Father was once a man.  2) He once dwelt on an Earth like Jesus Christ. 3) He also dwelt on an Earth like us.   It must be obvious that the type of Earth Life that Jesus experienced was radically different from the remainder of mankind.

From the second passage:  Jesus will lay down his body and take it up again just as the father did.    To me lay down this body is the atonement, and take it up again is the resurrection.  Jesus' death and resurrection is unlike any other human beings.  Of this there is no doubt.  Joseph Smith did not say that Elohim died and was raised like Joe Schmo.   What does the Son have power in himself to do???     Please See John 10:17-18, Joseph Smith was not making this stuff up ad lib.  He was constructing a big picture.  Everyone who reads John 10:17-18 understands that Jesus is describing the atonement and resurrection, but when many of us read the KFD we neglect to make this association and assume that he means something much less grand...  

I am saying that We (those who pray to Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ and ask for and receive forgiveness and partake of the sacrament and all ordinances) witness Jesus Christ and his atonement.  I believe similarly, that Jehovah was able to witness Elohim's atonement (and this happened prior to any of the rest of our brethren being organized into spirit children).

Here is the problem.  If you can't do what Jesus did...  How can you ask your firstborn to what you cannot comprehend?  Will you say to your Firstborn, I want you to go have a conversation with my Savior Jesus Christ, He will instruct you on what you need to do so that you can save the rest of my spirit children.   And if this is your solution then you might wonder if the glory will be vectored to Jesus Christ instead of yourself...

My point is that God through Joseph Smith radically changed Latter-Day Saint understanding of eternal progression.  The Protestants believe that we will hang out on clouds with harps for eternal adoration, or some such.

LDS doctrine is radically different.  We believe in self-improvement, hard work, and perfection.

In reading D&C 122: 7-9 one might ask, what in the heck is Jesus trying to teach Joseph Smith???   And if these things shall give Joseph experience, and shall be for his good, then what kind of trials will he be called upon to perform in his future???

I think I have an inkling.   And it is sobering. 

The earth life that Jesus experienced was radically different from the remainder of mankind in that He was sinless and had the infinite and eternal atoning mission. But He also faced every aspect of mortality that we do (Mosiah 3:7).

We lay down our bodies and take them up again as we see Jesus did (both in baptism and in victory over death), but we do these things through Jesus. We also serve as saviors on Mount Zion and do things for others they cannot do for themselves (i.e. ‘atone”), as we see Jesus do, but we also do these through Jesus. This is why Heavenly Father could well have been as one of us and less like Jesus during His mortal probation. Once Heavenly Father became God, He has life within Himself just as we will when we follow His footsteps through Jesus.

Yes, we do witness Jesus through both the ordinances and our transformation through life and beyond (D&C 84:20-22). The discourse does not describe Jesus witnessing His Father in the same way, in the flesh on another world, the same way we witness Jesus in this one. But if such were the case, Jesus would have had to revert again to being born in the flesh into this world He made for us, and we can expect to do likewise in some future estate. I can appreciate that some believe Joseph Smith taught reincarnation and Adam-God, which would support this idea, but the discourse does not touch upon these concepts either.

We are promised we will comprehend all things (D&C 88:6, 41, 49, 67). This is a function of divine grace, so it is not a problem. Our "Gethsemanes", to us, are just as terrible as Jesus’ was to Him, and through grace we come “unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (D&C 76:94). What it took 33 Earth years for Him to become will take eons for us to become, but that is not a problem either.

I don’t think D&C 122:7-9 is about Joseph Smith or any of the saints becoming Christs on other worlds, but about having faith and not fear during adversity for “God shall be with you forever and ever.” We must remember, “I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent…” That does not sound like an expectation that we suffer either for our own sins or for others’ sins as an infinite and eternal sacrifice in some other world; it sounds like reliance upon the Christ to advance from this world into exaltation without backtracking into another, more difficult mortal mission as an Only Begotten Son of God.

I might just as well say that we are qualified to come into this estate by already having passed our tests as Christs in other worlds, and this is our final step in perfection, an opportunity to learn what it is like to so badly desire forgiveness. To be washed clean only to lose or delay the resurrection until after entering another veil of forgetfulness as a Christ in another world doesn't seem to fully acknowledge the infinite and eternal nature of Christ's atonement for us.

Edited October 30, 2018 by CV75

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

In Truman Madsen’s discourse on Joseph Smith, he quite plainly states that Heavenly Father was a savior of his world.

I am a savior of this world too.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Personal speculation...

I don't buy into it at all.

 

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Yes, we do witness Jesus through both the ordinances and our transformation through life and beyond (D&C 84:20-22). The discourse does not describe Jesus witnessing His Father in the same way, in the flesh on another world, the same way we witness Jesus in this one. But if such were the case, Jesus would have had to revert again to being born in the flesh into this world He made for us, and we can expect to do likewise in some future estate. I can appreciate that some believe Joseph Smith taught reincarnation and Adam-God, which would support this idea, but the discourse does not touch upon these concepts either.

We are promised we will comprehend all things (D&C 88:6, 41, 49, 67). This is a function of divine grace, so it is not a problem. Our "Gethsemanes", to us, are just as terrible as Jesus’ was to Him, and through grace we come “unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (D&C 76:94). What it took 33 Earth years for Him to become will take eons for us to become, but that is not a problem either.

Joseph Smith never taught reincarnation or Adam-God.  Adam-God was Heber C Kimball & Brigham Young.

I dont believe in reincarnation either.  

Joseph Smith did teach that Heavenly Father was a Savior similar to Jesus Christ  though...   That I am convinced of.

There has only been one person on this Earth that has ever experienced Gethesemane.  We have trials but they are not comparable.  D&C 19:15-20

[CV75]

46 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Joseph Smith never taught reincarnation or Adam-God.  Adam-God was Heber C Kimball & Brigham Young.

I dont believe in reincarnation either.  

Joseph Smith did teach that Heavenly Father was a Savior similar to Jesus Christ  though...   That I am convinced of.

There has only been one person on this Earth that has ever experienced Gethesemane.  We have trials but they are not comparable.  D&C 19:15-20

In this case, Gethsemane is a common metaphor for our worst but most refining trials and tribulations. we are to apply the lessons from Gethsemane and Calvary to our own difficulties in life. D&C 101:4 gives us explicit instruction in this regard, which is in similitude of the offering of the Only Begotten Son (Jacob 4:5). All we can do is in similitude o the Son.

I would like to see the quote you are using for Joseph Smith teaching that Heavenly Father was a Savior similar to Jesus Christ (noting that we too are Saviors similar (not identical) to Jesus Christ).

I appreciate your working through this conversation with the push-back you are getting! But without reincarnation or Adam-God to explain things, we are left with a Christ-spirit or a Christ-intelligence witnessing His future Heavenly Father pass through mortality as a Christ, thus through further obedience qualifying Him to become the Firstborn. And if this is eh case for the Firstborn, all the other would follow the same pattern: witnessing their Father pass through various estates before He brings them forth to their first estate. But without a frame of reference, they would not be able to comprehend any other estate since no Father would be leading the way for them.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Joseph Smith never taught reincarnation or Adam-God.  Adam-God was Heber C Kimball & Brigham Young.

I dont believe in reincarnation either.  

Joseph Smith did teach that Heavenly Father was a Savior similar to Jesus Christ  though...   That I am convinced of.

There has only been one person on this Earth that has ever experienced Gethesemane.  We have trials but they are not comparable.  D&C 19:15-20

I dont buy it.. 

[The Folk Prophet]

@CV75 is doing a fine job of presenting a view that seems well in line with my own, hence I haven't shared any thoughts. Keep up the good work CV75!  So much less typing for me. Much easier to just click the like button again and again.  

[mikbone]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@CV75 is doing a fine job of presenting a view that seems well in line with my own, hence I haven't shared any thoughts. Keep up the good work CV75!  So much less typing for me. Much easier to just click the like button again and again.  

 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

 

But without reincarnation or Adam-God to explain things, we are left with a Christ-spirit or a Christ-intelligence witnessing His future Heavenly Father pass through mortality as a Christ, thus through further obedience qualifying Him to become the Firstborn.

Wait!  What?

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Wait!  What?

He's explaining the conditions which would have to exist in order for @mikbone's interpretations to be correct.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I would like to see the quote you are using for Joseph Smith teaching that Heavenly Father was a Savior similar to Jesus Christ (noting that we too are Saviors similar (not identical) to Jesus Christ).

I appreciate your working through this conversation with the push-back you are getting! But without reincarnation or Adam-God to explain things, we are left with a Christ-spirit or a Christ-intelligence witnessing His future Heavenly Father pass through mortality as a Christ, thus through further obedience qualifying Him to become the Firstborn. And if this is eh case for the Firstborn, all the other would follow the same pattern: witnessing their Father pass through various estates before He brings them forth to their first estate. But without a frame of reference, they would not be able to comprehend any other estate since no Father would be leading the way for them.

Quote

 

John Chapter 10

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

The common interpretation of this scripture is that Jesus is teaching that He would allow himself to be crucified such that He could perform the Atonement.  And that He would then become Resurrected.  No one at the time that Jesus gave this scripture understood His meaning, but later as John wrote down the words He understood the prophetic statement.  When Jesus says I lay down my life of myself, He is letting us know that the Atonement was his decision.  The "I have power to take it again" to me obviously declares the resurrection.  Do you not perceive this as so???

If you do think that the above scripture is describing the Atonement and resurrection of Christ, then the following paragraph from Joseph Smith's final General Conference address has significant meaning.  

Quote

The scriptures inform us (Mark it, Brother Rigdon) that Jesus Christ said:—What did Jesus say?—As the Father has power in Himself, even so has the Son power in himself. To do what? Why, what the Father did. That answer is obvious; even in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? “To lay down my life as my Father laid down His body that I might take it up again.” Do you believe it? If you don’t believe it, you don’t believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it and I defy all hell—all the learned wisdom and records and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it! 

 

You might also recognize that Joseph Smith is pretty worked up about it, and defying all the learned wisdom of the world and the powers of hell to deny his point of view...

But to each his own.

The Lorenzo Snow Couplet is a nice little turn of words that we like to reflect upon.  But Joseph Smith is adamant about this position.  Many people at this time in Joseph Smith's life was calling him a fallen prophet.  And many in the LDS church have tried to distance themselves from these teachings.  Personally I hold Joseph Smith in extremely high regard.  If there was anyone in these Latter-Days that understood the character of God.  It was none other than Joseph Smith.  When Neal A. Maxwell quoted John 5:19 he was tipping his hat to this address of Joseph Smith.   We still revere and honor Joseph Smith.  Just look at the Joseph Smith Papers.  What a great work we are doing to produce all the works of Joseph Smith in an accurate format with true scholarship. 

 

As to the second paragraph that I quoted from you.  It has been pleasure to work through the push-back.  You are actually thinking about your responses which is better than most.  You not only mentioned reincarnation, but the possibility of Jehovah witnessing the Father's atonement as either Jehovah-spirit or Jehovah-intelligence. 

 

There are other work-arounds, some of which are complex...

 

When I started learning these principles, I looked at the Lorenzo Snow Couplet and tried to make sense of this pathway that he was describing.

If Joseph Smith is stating that not only Jesus Christ was a Savior, but that Heavenly Father was a Savior, and that the Holy Ghost (if he successfully  passes through his current probationary state) will have the ability to pass through a similar course as the Savior.   This line of thought necessarily creates a "Royal line" of Gods that have earned Power and Authority but can also produce future Saviors.  This leaves us out in the cold, as secondary citizens.  UNLESS, there is only one path and that the path is much longer and difficult than we originally assumed.   When I started to perform the mental gymnastics to justify the questions, I began to understand scripture and Conference talks in a different light.  And in the long run it gives me hope and justifies the expectations and trials that the Lord has and will continue to test us with.  

I testify of this one truth.  God loves us.  He wants us to be happy and anxiously engaged in a Nobel cause.  Each of us have unlimited potential.  And over the course of the eternities I expect that we will rise to the level that we are willing to achieve.  

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, mikbone said:

I’m still working out the details.  

I would not be suprised at all if progression and further testing continues to occur throughout our eternities.

What I interpret this to mean is that, yes, you do believe in reincarnation (of a different type). But you haven't been able to find quotes stating such, so you can't just come right out and say it.

I believe you and Rob Osborn will get along just fine.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

As I understand things, the atonement is infinite in that it will forever in eternity be the one source for all future generations needing salvation. I am of the belief that our circumstance here on this world is unique. After Satan and his works are destroyed there may never come again a time when war is found again in heaven. What I am saying is this Earth and our testing is not cookie cutter stuff. We are in a unique time in the history of the heavens. Seeing stuff that's never happened before. 

[mikbone]

35 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

As I understand things, the atonement is infinite in that it will forever in eternity be the one source for all future generations needing salvation. I am of the belief that our circumstance here on this world is unique. After Satan and his works are destroyed there may never come again a time when war is found again in heaven. What I am saying is this Earth and our testing is not cookie cutter stuff. We are in a unique time in the history of the heavens. Seeing stuff that's never happened before. 

McConkie believed as much.  He also went as far as to suggest that Jesus Christ's Atonement not only extended into the future but that it also extended into the past and that Jehovah might have actually saved his forefathers...

It does not sit well with me.

In the pre-mortal existence we interacted with Jehovah and accepted him as our savior.  

I think that the above belief is akin to mankind believing that the entire universe revolves about the Earth.  It was a well accepted belief for thousands of years.  

Edited October 30, 2018 by mikbone

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, mikbone said:

McConkie believed as much.  He also went as far as to suggest that Jesus Christ's Atonement not only extended into the future but that it also extended into the past and that Jehovah might have actually saved his forefathers...

It does not sit well with me.

In the pre-mortal existence we interacted with Jehovah and accepted him as our savior.  

I think that the above belief is akin to mankind believing that the entire universe revolves about the Earth.  It was a well accepted belief for thousands of years.  

We do have scriptures that state it is our earth that is the wickedest of all the innumerable Creations of God.

[mikbone]

Moses 7:36

Yeah, of all the worlds without number that Christ created (Moses 1:33) this world has the worst and likely the best.

Lucifer and his host were cast down to Earth.  And yet Christ and many of the nobel and great ones were sent here to Earth likely to offset the Evil nature of the dragon and his followers.

Edited October 31, 2018 by mikbone

[JohnsonJones]

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

If Joseph Smith is stating that not only Jesus Christ was a Savior, but that Heavenly Father was a Savior, and that the Holy Ghost (if he successfully  passes through his current probationary state) will have the ability to pass through a similar course as the Savior.   This line of thought necessarily creates a "Royal line" of Gods that have earned Power and Authority but can also produce future Saviors.  This leaves us out in the cold, as secondary citizens.  UNLESS, there is only one path and that the path is much longer and difficult than we originally assumed.   When I started to perform the mental gymnastics to justify the questions, I began to understand scripture and Conference talks in a different light.  And in the long run it gives me hope and justifies the expectations and trials that the Lord has and will continue to test us with.  

I testify of this one truth.  God loves us.  He wants us to be happy and anxiously engaged in a Nobel cause.  Each of us have unlimited potential.  And over the course of the eternities I expect that we will rise to the level that we are willing to achieve.  

 

Not that I read in that statement, and NOT what I read what the Lord stated.

Joseph Smith stated that the Father gained his exaltation the same way that we do, through testing and enduring to the end.  He was a MAN and as one he did what we ALL will do, which is that we will die and then be resurrected. 

This could have multiple interpretations.  One could say that he was the one who did an atonement on his world (as some have alluded to in this thread, or blatantly stated), but then, that means the atonement of the Lord may not be as infinite or eternal as it some feel it is as it is thus limited in it's scope to be infinite and eternal ONLY to those on this manifestation/world/specific generation of children.  It could also mean that he was as we are, and in the end received his reward and exaltation after dying and being resurrected.  This is entirely possible, that each generation of children or set of children sent to mortality each need their own Savior to do an atonement.  I do not know.

The rabbit holes go deeper than this though...

Some may believe that we all will die and need to be reincarnated (which some would also call complete Bull Hockey).  We do this so that we become half mortal/half deities and do our own atonement for younger children.  Of course, that seems to indicate that the promises of the scriptures are all LIES as than the promises of exaltation because we endured to the end would not be accomplished.  It also brings up the weird aspect that woman would be sealed multiple times to multiple men for all eternity during various reincarnations thus meaning that families are NOT forever and sealings are basically just temporary things. 

As such, I don't really believe such ideas.  My interpretation is that this is unnecessary.  We can become joint-heirs with the Lord and become as our Father without this if necessary.  It is possible some are sent back to mortality in some fashion (perhaps this is how one might advance in the Celestial Kingdom as things cannot change in the exaltations and eternities, but they can in mortality...but on this I do not know as the scriptures are silent on how this is accomplished, only that there is no advancement between Kingdoms themselves, but possibly between degrees within a Kingdom...I do not know)...however, if we receive Exaltation there is NO need to return to mortality if we do not desire to do so (and why would we deem to do so, abandoning the glory and exaltation we already have)?

If there are appointed Savior's for each generation, then our own children in the glories hereafter would need one specific to them.  In this, our eldest would also have our example of dying and being resurrected without us having to do it twice.

The real truth behind it all is that we have no idea what things entail.  Even with the little that has been taught it does not really illuminate for us what it truly means.  Anything that we guess or suppose is hypothesizing at best. 

[JohnsonJones]

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

If Joseph Smith is stating that not only Jesus Christ was a Savior, but that Heavenly Father was a Savior, and that the Holy Ghost (if he successfully  passes through his current probationary state) will have the ability to pass through a similar course as the Savior.   This line of thought necessarily creates a "Royal line" of Gods that have earned Power and Authority but can also produce future Saviors.  This leaves us out in the cold, as secondary citizens.  UNLESS, there is only one path and that the path is much longer and difficult than we originally assumed.   When I started to perform the mental gymnastics to justify the questions, I began to understand scripture and Conference talks in a different light.  And in the long run it gives me hope and justifies the expectations and trials that the Lord has and will continue to test us with.  

I testify of this one truth.  God loves us.  He wants us to be happy and anxiously engaged in a Nobel cause.  Each of us have unlimited potential.  And over the course of the eternities I expect that we will rise to the level that we are willing to achieve.  

 

It should be noted that some have hypothesized that Joseph Smith was actually the Holy Ghost at an earlier period.  That this position can change and various individuals have fulfilled this role.

In the Pre-existence it is also thought by the same individuals that Adam was in the Role of the Holy Ghost and we can see evidence of this in some very holy places.  That he was the third member of the Godhead at that time, but was a spirit as well. 

Neither Joseph nor Adam came down and played the same role as the Lord, but they both died and both will rise up again in a glorified and exalted form.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, mikbone said:

The common interpretation of this scripture is that Jesus is teaching that He would allow himself to be crucified such that He could perform the Atonement.  And that He would then become Resurrected.  No one at the time that Jesus gave this scripture understood His meaning, but later as John wrote down the words He understood the prophetic statement.  When Jesus says I lay down my life of myself, He is letting us know that the Atonement was his decision.  The "I have power to take it again" to me obviously declares the resurrection.  Do you not perceive this as so???

If you do think that the above scripture is describing the Atonement and resurrection of Christ, then the following paragraph from Joseph Smith's final General Conference address has significant meaning. 

You might also recognize that Joseph Smith is pretty worked up about it, and defying all the learned wisdom of the world and the powers of hell to deny his point of view...

But to each his own.

The Lorenzo Snow Couplet is a nice little turn of words that we like to reflect upon.  But Joseph Smith is adamant about this position.  Many people at this time in Joseph Smith's life was calling him a fallen prophet.  And many in the LDS church have tried to distance themselves from these teachings.  Personally I hold Joseph Smith in extremely high regard.  If there was anyone in these Latter-Days that understood the character of God.  It was none other than Joseph Smith.  When Neal A. Maxwell quoted John 5:19 he was tipping his hat to this address of Joseph Smith.   We still revere and honor Joseph Smith.  Just look at the Joseph Smith Papers.  What a great work we are doing to produce all the works of Joseph Smith in an accurate format with true scholarship.

As to the second paragraph that I quoted from you.  It has been pleasure to work through the push-back.  You are actually thinking about your responses which is better than most.  You not only mentioned reincarnation, but the possibility of Jehovah witnessing the Father's atonement as either Jehovah-spirit or Jehovah-intelligence.

There are other work-arounds, some of which are complex...

When I started learning these principles, I looked at the Lorenzo Snow Couplet and tried to make sense of this pathway that he was describing.

If Joseph Smith is stating that not only Jesus Christ was a Savior, but that Heavenly Father was a Savior, and that the Holy Ghost (if he successfully  passes through his current probationary state) will have the ability to pass through a similar course as the Savior.   This line of thought necessarily creates a "Royal line" of Gods that have earned Power and Authority but can also produce future Saviors.  This leaves us out in the cold, as secondary citizens.  UNLESS, there is only one path and that the path is much longer and difficult than we originally assumed.   When I started to perform the mental gymnastics to justify the questions, I began to understand scripture and Conference talks in a different light.  And in the long run it gives me hope and justifies the expectations and trials that the Lord has and will continue to test us with.  

I testify of this one truth.  God loves us.  He wants us to be happy and anxiously engaged in a Nobel cause.  Each of us have unlimited potential.  And over the course of the eternities I expect that we will rise to the level that we are willing to achieve. 

From elsewhere in the discourse apart from the quote you provided, we learn that the Father is a resurrected being. He laid down His life and took it up again. How do we obtain power to lay down our lives and take them up again? The first through Adam and the second through Christ. How did Jesus obtain power to lay down His life and take it up again? The first through Adam and the second through his Father. How did the Father obtain power to lay down His life and take it up again? Either the way Christ did or the way we do.

When I first joined the Church I was impressed with someone’s comment that some are willing to lay down their lives for the Church but will find an excuse not to mow the meetinghouse lawn.

It seems to me, taking the version of the discourse we have today at face value, that if Joseph Smith was so “worked up” about the principle you are describing, he would have been far more explicit. He was with other “appendages.”

One of the blessings of the Atonement of Christ is that the “royal line” is established entirely through adoption, and that we can neither inherit nor earn exaltation in a literal sense. A god that does earn power and glory in a literal sense cannot receive grace for grace, continue from grace to grace, or develop compassion (we know what methods he resorted to and where he ended up!). This approach suggests a form of spiritual “Korihorism.” Even Jesus relied upon His Father, as the scriptures and the discourse show.

So yes, we are out in the cold. We are fallen, lost in this world and having been “lesser stars” from the beginning, even the noble and great ones. We find ourselves in a difficult probation (relatively speaking). There is only one path to choose our way out of that, and it is the straight and narrow way. Sometimes mental gymnastics can eventually lead us to that simple conclusion.

Serving as a Savior in another world after dying in this one would have to occur before your eventual resurrection (what about the saints that have been resurrected?), or require your immortal body to be taken away so that you could enter a new body in a new mortality. This is perdition and reduces the Atonement of Christ to a temporary favor for the so-called most able (through their own merits) to become like Him. This has not been the message.

For millennia our descendants “see us” and what we do in the most intrinsically personal way by virtue of possessing our DNA. And so we and they also see our fathers. Having Heavenly Father’s “spiritual DNA” allows Jesus and us to see Him and what He did and does in the very same way.

Edited October 31, 2018 by CV75

[mikbone]

38 minutes ago, CV75 said:

One of the blessings of the Atonement of Christ is that the “royal line” is established entirely through adoption, and that we can neither inherit nor earn exaltation in a literal sense. A god that does earn power and glory in a literal sense cannot receive grace for grace, continue from grace to grace, or develop compassion (we know what methods he resorted to and where he ended up!). This approach suggests a form of spiritual “Korihorism.” Even Jesus relied upon His Father, as the scriptures and the discourse show.

Serving as a Savior in another world after dying in this one would have to occur before your eventual resurrection (what about the saints that have been resurrected?), or require your immortal body to be taken away so that you could enter a new body in a new mortality. This is perdition and reduces the Atonement of Christ to a temporary favor for the so-called most able (through their own merits) to become like Him. This has not been the message.

I like where you are going.  I don't think that my concepts negates grace, in my opinion it actually makes the dependence upon those that have gone on before even more demanding. 

And adoption is extremely important.  When we are baptized, and the holy spirit of promise seals the ordinance, we are spiritually reborn of Christ and he claims us as his.  But we really become his children when we do and act in the same fashion as He did...

Ahh, thank you.  The concept of an immortal body being taken away.  Tell me more about that.

Alma 11:45, D&C 93:33, D&C 138:17

Edited October 31, 2018 by mikbone

[The Folk Prophet]

19 hours ago, mikbone said:

Personally I hold Joseph Smith in extremely high regard.

Whereas everyone who disagrees with you does not?

[The Folk Prophet]

Here are the relevant passages from the actual transcripts: (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/accounts-of-the-king-follett-sermon)

From Willard Richards:

refute the Idea that God was God from all eternity— Jesus said as the father Had power in himself even so hath the son power to do what the fathr did.— Lay down his body. & take it up again.—— you have got to learn how to make you[r]selves Gods Kings. Priets.— &—by going from a small to g[r]eat capacity. . . Till they are able to dwell in evelastig [everlasting] burni[n]g & everlasti[n]g power.

from Wilford Woodruff:

It is the first principle to know that we may convers with him and that he once was <a> man like us, and the Father was once on an earth like us, And I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it The scriptures inform us mark it that Jesus Christ Said As the Father hath power in himself so hath the son power in himself to do what the father did even to lay down my body & take it up again do you believe it, if not, dont believe the bible, I defy all Hell and earth to refute it. And you have got to learn how to make yourselves God, king and priest, by going from a small capacity to a great capacity to the resurrection of the dead, to dwelling in everlasting burnings, I want you to know the first principle of this law, how consoling to the mourner when they part with a friend to know that though they lay down this body it will rise & dwell with everlasting burnings to be an heir of God & joint heir of <with> Jesus Christ enjoying the same rise exhaltation & glory untill you arive at the station of a God. What did Jesus Christ do, the same thing as I se[e] the Father do, see the father do what, work, out a kingdom, when I do so to I will give to the father which will add to his glory, He will take a Higher exhaltation & I will take his place and am also exhalted. These are the first principles of the gospel. It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole If I should say anything but what was in the bible the cry of treason would be herd. I will then go to the bible, 

from Thomas Bullock:

as the Far. hath power in himself to do even so hath the Son power to do what the Far. did that ansr. is obvious in a manne to lay down his body & take it up— J— did as my Far. laid down his body & take it up agn. if you dont believe it you dont believe the Bible the Scrip says & I defy all hell all learnd. wisdom & records of hell togr to refute it here then is Etl life to know the only wise & true God you have got to learn how to be a God yourself & be a K. & GodPriest to God same as all have done by going from a small capy. to anr. from grace to grace until the rest. of & sit in everlasting power as they who have gone before & God in the L D. while certn.indivdls. are proclaimg. his name is not trifling with us— how consoling to the mourner when they are cald. to part with a wife mother father dr. relative to know that all Earthly taber shall be dissolved that [p. 16] they shall be heirs of God & jt. hrs of J. C. to inherit the same powers exaltn.until you ascd. the throne of Etl. power same as those who are gone bef. what J. did I do the things I saw my Far. do before worlds came rolld into existence I saw my Far. work out his K with fear & trembling & I must do the same when I shall give my K to the Far. so that he obtns K rollg. upon K. so that J treads in his tracks as he had gone before it is plain beyond comprehensn. & you thus learn the first prin of the Gospel when you climb a ladder you must begin at the bottom run[g] until you learn the last prin of the Gospel for it is a great thing to learn Saln. beyond the grave & it is not all to be com in this world I sup I am not alld. to go into investign. but what is contd. in the Bible 

from William Clayton:

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are imcomprehensible to some but are the first principle of the gospel— to know that we may converse with him as one man with another & that he was once as one of us and was on a planet as Jesus was in the flesh— [p. 13]

If I have the privilege could tell the story in such a manner this persecution would cease forever— Said Jesus (mark it  Br [Sidney] Rigdon ) What did Jesus say as the father hath power in himself even so hath the son power. to do what why what the father did To lay down his body and took it up again. Jesus what are you going to do— to lay down my life as my father did that I might take it up again. If you deny it you deny the bible I defy the records and wisdom & all the combined powers of earth and hell to refute it. Ha You have got to learn how to be a god yourself in order to save yourself— to be priests Kings as all Gods has done— by going from a small degree to another from exaltation to ex[altation]— till they are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned. I want you to know while God is being proclaimed that he is not trifling with you nor me. 1st principles of consolation how consoling to the mourner when calld to part with husband for their wife child to know that those being shall rise in immortal glory to sorrow die nor suffer anymore. & not only that to contemplate the saying they shall be heirs of God &c What is it— to inherit the same glory power & exal[ta]tion with those who are gone before What did Jesus do why I do the things that I saw the father do when worlds came into existens— I saw the father work out a kingdom with fear & trembling & I can do the same & when I get my k with I will present to the father & it will exalt his glory and Jesus steps into his tracts to inherit what God did before This is some of the first prinicples of the gospel about which so much hath been

Edited October 31, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[mikbone]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Whereas everyone who disagrees with you does not?

I don't get that upset about people on the internet disagreeing with me.

On the other hand, when Latter-Day Saints start to harsh on Joseph Smith, Jr. it gets under my skin. (And I'm not saying that you are)

Joseph Smith is the leader of this dispensation.  He met over 20 resurrected personages.  Spoke directly to Jesus Christ on multiple occasions.   And directly received the keys of the priesthood from  past prophets.

Joseph Smith had disagreements with many of his own chosen apostles.  I can't imagine what He would have been able to do if He had the support, finances, and infrastructure that President Nelson currently enjoys.