The next logical step

[Tyme]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

 I can even believe they have the right to a State marriage.  

That was hearsay not so long ago. It was essentially not obeying the prophet. The very same thing I’m being accused of now.

[Grunt]

Just now, Tyme said:

That was hearsay not so long ago. It was essentially not obeying the prophet. The very same thing I’m being accused of now.

The Prophet said believing civil marriage should be legal was sinful and would result in apostasy?  Harmful to society?  Sure, and I wouldn't disagree.  Against the will of God?  Yep.  I'd love to see a citation to the first bit, though.  I've never seen it as revelation.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You're confusing love and acceptance with belief that Heavenly Father condones it.   I can love and accept homosexuals.  I can even believe they have the right to a State marriage.  That doesn't mean I don't recognize their behavior is sinful and hope they can overcome it for eternal life and exaltation.

The thing is, Grunt, he's not confusing anything (at least, not to himself).  He's just refusing to listen to anything other than his own echo chamber.  There's no confusion there. Just a single mission to spread apostasy.

I for one will make sure that in 40 years, it will not be anywhere near 90% -- at least, not accepting the doctrinal position.  Both sets of our parents (my wife's and mine) had many children.  Each of those children also had many children.  In only two generations, between the two families, there are over 70 individuals who are all being raised to follow the prophet.  We all know the difference between social acceptance vs Divine acceptance.  And all our children will have many children who will learn the same things.  And most of them are prepared to have large families as well.

How many children do gay couples have?  How many children is Tyme going to be able to affect?  They're fighting a losing battle.  That's why they're so hot to force it on everyone.  There's no way that their system is going to be self-sustaining.  So, they have to use the point of a gun to enforce that belief on others.

The spirit teaches liberty and freedom of choice.  The first liberty is freedom of thought and belief.  But the LGBQ agenda requires government (or the mob) to enforce their beliefs..  Without those two methods, the movement would die without a whimper.  It is the great and spacious building without a foundation.  And great shall be the fall of it.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

  He's just refusing to listen to anything other than his own echo chamber.  

On controversial issues like this, most people live in their own echo chamber. 

[SpiritDragon]

28 minutes ago, Tyme said:

In 20-40 years that rate will be 90-100%. Then after older folks die off you'll be looking at the youth growing up carrying that acceptance with them. That leaves the church with only four options. It bleeds out, America fails, becomes a foreign church or it embraces LGBTQ. I hope that the church embraces LGBTQ. After all the spirit will be witnessing to the members that it is accepted and not something to abhor.

 

There are other options available. One would be that the members of the church are stalwart and recognize evil for what it is and the church continues to prosper, even if growth slows. Another is that the Saviour sees the world is ripe in iniquity and the second coming is ushered in to protect children from being raised in such an evil culture where they don't have a good chance at ever having the gospel take root in their hearts.

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

On controversial issues like this, most people live in their own echo chamber. 

You honestly don't see a difference between his behavior here vs others who are "just stubborn"?

[Tyme]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 Just a single mission to spread apostasy.

 

🤣

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

You honestly don't see a difference between his behavior here vs others who are "just stubborn"?

I'm actually staggered by his open mindedness and willing to engage in meaningful debate.

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

The thing is, Grunt, he's not confusing anything (at least, not to himself).  He's just refusing to listen to anything other than his own echo chamber.  There's no confusion there. Just a single mission to spread apostasy.

I for one will make sure that in 40 years, it will not be anywhere near 90% -- at least, not accepting the doctrinal position.  Both sets of our parents (my wife's and mine) had many children.  Each of those children also had many children.  In only two generations, between the two families, there are over 70 individuals who are all being raised to follow the prophet.  We all know the difference between social acceptance vs Divine acceptance.  And all our children will have many children who will learn the same things.  And most of them are prepared to have large families as well.

How many children do gay couples have?  How many children is Tyme going to be able to affect?  They're fighting a losing battle.  That's why they're so hot to force it on everyone.  There's no way that their system is going to be self-sustaining.  So, they have to use the point of a gun to enforce that belief on others.

 The spirit teaches liberty and freedom of choice.  But the LGBQ agenda requires government (or the mob) to enforce it.  Without those two methods, the movement would die without a whimper.  It is the great and spacious building without a foundation.  And great shall be the fall of it.

I agree.  In all honesty, it's also really starting to change my position of acceptance.  I'm becoming less tolerant of having this crammed down my throat and my children exposed to it.   I'm becoming more inclined to vote against acceptance of this behavior.

[Tyme]

9 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I agree.  In all honesty, it's also really starting to change my position of acceptance.  I'm becoming less tolerant of having this crammed down my throat and my children exposed to it.   I'm becoming more inclined to vote against acceptance of this behavior.

🤣 Its over its coming like a rough stone rolling. 

[Grunt]

Just now, Tyme said:

🤣 Its over its coming like a rough stone rolling. 

Then that certainly isn't something to be cheered.   Why would anyone be happy about others being lost to eternal life?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I agree.  In all honesty, it's also really starting to change my position of acceptance.  I'm becoming less tolerant of having this crammed down my throat and my children exposed to it.   I'm becoming more inclined to vote against acceptance of this behavior.

You know, that is a lot like the change on abortion.  Before and around the time of Roe v. Wade, there was wide acceptance for the standard exceptions: Health/life of the mother, rape, incest.  In fact, that was all that was defined as "pro-choice" or even "pro-abortion" in the political arena.

But over time, that movement changed to where "pro-choice" demanded that any woman can have an abortion at any time between conception to the half-second before the first breath.  And they further want it to be tax-payer funded.  Now, we've recently seen the videos where, even the babies who survive the abortion are to be killed even after they've taken their first breath.

At some point, it becomes so evil that we just want to say no to the whole thing and not grant any exceptions.

Should LGBQ be able to obtain jobs?  Sure.  Housing?  Sure.  All under fair competition.  But that movement has changed as well.  We see it being preached in schools.  Boys can claim to be girls just so they can shower with them.  A gym coach was fired for refusing to watch the naked adolescent girl-identifying-as-a-boy in the shower.

We believe in tolerance.  And if that's all they were after, most people would not have a problem with it.  But the movements in both cases were never about tolerance or acceptance or compassion.  It was about pushing Satan's agenda on the people of God.  It always will be.

So, I can still believe in tolerance.  But I'll never accept this "tolerance society".

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

We believe in tolerance.  And if that's all they were after, most people would not have a problem with it.  But the movements in both cases were never about tolerance or acceptance or compassion.  It was about pushing Satan's agenda on the people of God.  It always will be.

 

Totally agree. No one is more loving and tolerant than an active LDS. Even when confronted with behavior they don't approve of, you can always count on them. 100%

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Then that certainly isn't something to be cheered.   Why would anyone be happy about others being lost to eternal life?

Don't worry.  His misuse of the term betrays his ignorance on the topic.

BTW, do you even know where the term "rough stone rolling" comes from?

[boxer]

50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Accepted by society" is quite different than "Believe that the Lord accepts it".

Many here find no problem with people having same sex attraction.  And many here are ok with it being legal.  But to believe that gay marriages being solemnized in the temple is in any way going to be acceptable to the Lord is borderline apostasy.  To declare and preach that the Spirit wills it so IS apostasy.

I agree with the second paragraph.  The pew research makes it clear that when it says "accepted by society' it means "sinful".

Dig into the data and you find some very interesting conclusions, http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/mormon/views-about-homosexuality/

such as 47% of Mormons who believe homosexuality should be accepted believe abortion should be legal in all/most cases.  Only 16% of those who believe homosexuality should not be accepted believe that.

Or how about 60%!!! of Mormons who believe homosexuality should be accepted believe right or wrong depends on the situation . . . 60%! Only 30% believe that way for those who do not believe homosexuality should be accepted.

Only 49% of those who believe homosexuality is okay look to religion for guidance on right/wrong.  Contrast that to 73% of those who believe it is wrong that look to religion to guide right/wrong. Those who accept homosexuality pray less, study scripture less, attend church less, and religion is less important by at least fully 20% than those who do not accept.

Contrary to what Tyme suggests about more spirituality. The hard data indicates that acceptance of homosexuality leads to less spirituality, less religion, and more Godlessness.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, boxer said:

I agree with the second paragraph.  The pew research makes it clear that when it says "accepted by society' it means "sinful".

Dig into the data and you find some very interesting conclusions, http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/mormon/views-about-homosexuality/

such as 47% of Mormons who believe homosexuality should be accepted believe abortion should be legal in all/most cases.  Only 16% of those who believe homosexuality should not be accepted believe that.

Or how about 60%!!! of Mormons who believe homosexuality should be accepted believe right or wrong depends on the situation . . . 60%! Only 30% believe that way for those who do not believe homosexuality should be accepted.

Only 49% of those who believe homosexuality is okay look to religion for guidance on right/wrong.  Contrast that to 73% of those who believe it is wrong that look to religion to guide right/wrong. Those who accept homosexuality pray less, study scripture less, attend church less, and religion is less important by at least fully 20% than those who do not accept.

Contrary to what Tyme suggests about more spirituality. The hard data indicates that acceptance of homosexuality leads to less spirituality, less religion, and more Godlessness.

I'm still not clear on the semantics of the survey.  Remember that we also separate "having the trait" of "same-sex attraction" vs "homosexual acts".  There are additional subtleties that will also create a very gray line on many aspects of surveys like this.

But the one line that will not be crossed is that gay-marriage is now clearly defined as apostasy in the Church Handbook.  It is official Church policy to excommunicate gay couples who get married to each other civilly.

If that isn't a clear message that gay-marriage is NOT approved of God, I don't know how many statements in General Conference are going to change that perception.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Guest

[boxer]

20 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I agree.  In all honesty, it's also really starting to change my position of acceptance.  I'm becoming less tolerant of having this crammed down my throat and my children exposed to it.   I'm becoming more inclined to vote against acceptance of this behavior.

Oh just wait; you ain't seen nothing yet.  It is being promoted as virtuous.  That those who engage in homosexuality aren't just people who struggle, they aren't just sinners, no they are actually the best of us.  They are sent here to teach the rest of us how to be better. They are more spiritual then the rest of us, they are closer to God, they love better, are more pure, etc. etc. etc. 

Of course with that rhetoric, anyone who disagrees is an evil person for hating on the literal angels sent here to help us.

[Tyme]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I'm still not clear on the semantics of the survey.  Remember that we also separate "having the trait" of "same-sex attraction" vs "homosexual acts".  There are additional subtleties that will also create a very gray line on many aspects of surveys like this.

But the one line that will not be crossed is that gay-marriage is now clearly defined as apostasy in the Church Handbook.  It is official Church policy to excommunicate gay couples who get married to each other civilly.

If that isn't a clear message that gay-marriage is NOT approved of God, I don't know how many statements in General Conference are going to change that perception.

So anybody you agree with you can have a respectful conversation? Why can't you do that with people you disagree with? It's because you are in your own echo chamber and cognitive dissonance . I've been told that's a sign of lower intelligence.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, boxer said:

Dig into the data and you find some very interesting conclusions

I found that the data actually refutes his primary claim that the younger generation are more in favor of it.  The percentages of older millennials + younger millennials are about the same percentage for both "for" and "against".

IOW, the age distribution doesn't change.  They all appear to be about the same as the average

Quote

Contrary to what Tyme suggests about more spirituality. The hard data indicates that acceptance of homosexuality leads to less spirituality, less religion, and more Godlessness.

Yes.  We pretty much already knew that.  But thanks for the data.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Guest

[boxer]

2 minutes ago, Tyme said:

So anybody you agree with you can have a respectful conversation? Why can't you do that with people you disagree with? It's because you are in your own echo chamber and cognitive dissonance . I've been told that's a sign of lower intelligence.

I am most certainly willing to engage with you in a respectful conversation.  Unfortunately, you have not answered several of my questions and therefore a conversation is not possible.

[lostinwater]

Just my opinion, but i think a lot of the fuel powering the strong rejection of homosexuality is based on the caricatures people hold towards those who practice it.  Not the genesis of that rejection, but certainly a lot of the fuel.  And those caricatures are getting dissolved quite rapidly - especially among the current generation, but in others also.  It will be interesting to see how many religions (not just this one) react as homosexuality is increasingly normalized and integrated socially.  As the fuel of revulsion and fear begins to run out.

i'm not talking some much about this Church, but evangelicals more broadly.  Personally, i am not sure this Church will ever be able to walk back their stance on homosexuality - even if they want to later.  

But if there's one thing i've learned about the gods many religions or even the bible claim to speak for, it's that they very frequently change their mind. 

And i'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.  All these are just my observations  - and i don't claim that they are anything other than that.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, boxer said:

I am most certainly willing to engage with you in a respectful conversation.  Unfortunately, you have not answered several of my questions and therefore a conversation is not possible.

I am the same way.  I've commented on this several times in the past 6 months or so.  People come on the board and want to have "a discussion"  But their tactic is as follows:

1. Ask a simple question.
2. Answer no questions (or few questions) from others.
3. DEMAND answers to more question.
4. Still refuse to answer any questions.
5. Any questions they do answer are twisted to not even be the questions that were asked of them in the first place.
6. Ignore any facts that they can't explain or address.
7. Claim they are being treated unfairly.
8. Whine and moan.

And there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.  It has happened with at least four people in the past 6 months or so.  I'm happy to discuss things.  But discussion requires back and forth.  Not a one sided interrogation.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, lostinwater said:

Just my opinion, but i think a lot of the fuel powering the strong rejection of homosexuality is based on the caricatures people hold towards those who practice it.  Not the genesis of that rejection, but certainly a lot of the fuel.  And those caricatures are getting dissolved quite rapidly - especially among the current generation, but in others also.  It will be interesting to see how many religions (not just this one) react as homosexuality is increasingly normalized and integrated socially.  As the fuel of revulsion and fear begins to run out.

i'm not talking some much about this Church, but evangelicals more broadly.  Personally, i am not sure this Church will ever be able to walk back their stance on homosexuality - even if they want to later.  

But if there's one thing i've learned about the gods many religions or even the bible claim to speak for, it's that they very frequently change their mind. 

And i'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.  All these are just my observations  - and i don't claim that they are anything other than that.

What caricatures have we painted on this forum?  Give an example.

I've seen a lot of specific examples taken from real-life examples.  That isn't a caricature.  That's an example.  So, what caricatures are you talking about.

[Grunt]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Don't worry.  His misuse of the term betrays his ignorance on the topic.

BTW, do you even know where the term "rough stone rolling" comes from?

I know it was a description of Joseph Smith by himself and it's origin, but I've never read the book.

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I am the same way.  I've commented on this several times in the past 6 months or so.  People come on the board and want to have "a discussion"  But their tactic is as follows:

1. Ask a simple question.
2. Answer no questions (or few questions) from others.
3. DEMAND answers to more question.
4. Still refuse to answer any questions.
5. Any questions they do answer are twisted to not even be the questions that were asked of them in the first place.
6. Ignore any facts that they can't explain or address.
7. Claim they are being treated unfairly.
8. Whine and moan.

And there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.  It has happened with at least four people in the past 6 months or so.  I'm happy to discuss things.  But discussion requires back and forth.  Not a one sided interrogation.

It's why I spend less time on the forum these days.  I've cut a lot of things from my life that don't uplift me spiritually.