Dungeons & Dragons: No, a Paladin is NOT a Boyscout

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

They can't cast fireball and lightning bolt.  They don't even get magic missile until they are uber high level.

A mage without magic missile. I'm going to let that sink in for a minute. 

Totally useless class. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

They can't cast fireball and lightning bolt.  They don't even get magic missile until they are uber high level.

Yeah, but you said that you'd just be a magic user and only get illusion spells.

The way that I envisioned was that you'd have a vegetarian conscientious objector type that would not actually kill -- even monsters.  But he would daze and so forth.  But he'd have to be able to cast a LOT of these spells to get through a dungeon.  Therefore, he needs more spell slots.

[Vort]

By that post's definition, Boy Scouts aren't Boy Scouts, either.

[mirkwood]

15 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Coincidentally, this was a Nurgle themed force.

But I'll consider that a standing challenge.  ⚔️

I might lose just based on not playing in about a decade.

 

[unixknight]

Just now, mirkwood said:

I might lose just based on not playing in about a decade.

 

Fair enough, though by the same token I've been playing my army in a wildly different rules system so I don't even know if I could still play WHFB 8E.

[mirkwood]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, but you said that you'd just be a magic user and only get illusion spells.

The way that I envisioned was that you'd have a vegetarian conscientious objector type that would not actually kill -- even monsters.  But he would daze and so forth.  But he'd have to be able to cast a LOT of these spells to get through a dungeon.  Therefore, he needs more spell slots.

No, I meant be a magic user and you can cast illusions if you wanted to...why though, you can cast fireball, lightning bolt and magic missile instead.

[mirkwood]

I don't even know which edition is the last set of rules I bought.

[unixknight]

7 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I don't even know which edition is the last set of rules I bought.

We've been playing 5E, which overall I like.  It's very much like 2E in major ways, but with a sprinkling of stuff from later editions.

[unixknight]

27 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

A mage without magic missile. I'm going to let that sink in for a minute. 

Totally useless class. 

Keep in mind where the Illusionist came from...  It was a 1E class.  (IIRC it was first introduced in the Unearthed Arcana book, but it may have been in the Player's Handbook)

Back then, AD&D was much less a combat game than it is now.  Different classes were clearly better or worse in fights than others, and that was by design.  The idea was that the adventurers would be doing things like exploring, negotiating, investigating and generally living life much more than actually battling.  

The problem is battling is what's the most exciting part, so later editions emphasized it more and more, and the Illusionist struggles to remain relevant. 

[mirkwood]

The Illusionist is in this PHB

 

 

 

Unearthed Arcana came out several years later and introduced the Cavalier class.  Much cooler than paladins.

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

The Illusionist is in this PHB

Unearthed Arcana came out several years later and introduced the Cavalier class.  Much cooler than paladins.

Yep, it had the wizard cover when I first  got into it.  

Yeah Unearthed Arcana was a weird animal.  They moved the Paladin to be a subclass of Cavalier but it was unclear which XP table to use, what type of hit die... That book also introduced the Assassin... which was useless in a campaign where there's no evil PCs, the Thief-Acrobat which nobody ever played in any group I was in... and... 

ugh.

the Barbarian.  Most broken, most obviously-non-playtested Conan fanboy class ever introduced.

[Midwest LDS]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Yep, it had the wizard cover when I first  got into it.  

Yeah Unearthed Arcana was a weird animal.  They moved the Paladin to be a subclass of Cavalier but it was unclear which XP table to use, what type of hit die... That book also introduced the Assassin... which was useless in a campaign where there's no evil PCs, the Thief-Acrobat which nobody ever played in any group I was in... and... 

ugh.

the Barbarian.  Most broken, most obviously-non-playtested Conan fanboy class ever introduced.

Ah barbarian my favorite spellcaster 😉

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

No, I meant be a magic user and you can cast illusions if you wanted to...why though, you can cast fireball, lightning bolt and magic missile instead.

I think we were going down two different roads here.  I was looking for a way to make illusionists a useful class.  You were trying to form a magic user with illusionists tendencies.

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Ah barbarian my favorite spellcaster 😉

 

Actually in 5e, barbarians do actually have (very) few spells, and one campaign I ran the barbarian actually WAS the group's most powerful caster (he was a higher level than the rest of us). 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Actually in 5e, barbarians do actually have (very) few spells, and one campaign I ran the barbarian actually WAS the group's most powerful caster (he was a higher level than the rest of us). 

I never knew that! (Not challenging you, just surprised!) 

What spells are they? 

I'm old school. 3.5 all the way. Almost to the point of being OCD about it.  I know the basics about the other versions. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by MormonGator

[Midwest LDS]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Actually in 5e, barbarians do actually have (very) few spells, and one campaign I ran the barbarian actually WAS the group's most powerful caster (he was a higher level than the rest of us). 

Yep they do have some cool magical abilities in 5e, and man if you build them right in they can take a beating. Definitly a fun class.

[mikbone]

 

From Dragon magazine issue 39

I play lawful good irl, in fantasy Im gonna mix it up.

Edited December 20, 2018 by mikbone

[Midwest LDS]

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I never knew that! (Not challenging you, just surprised!) 

What spells are they? 

I'm old school. 3.5 all the way. Almost to the point of being OCD about it.  I know the basics about the other versions. 

In 5th ed every class has multiple builds you can choose from and one for barbarians (primal path I believe) has a bunch of supernatural abilities. I love 3.5 (I still have most of the books) but I've played a lit of 5th ed with my group and it's really well done. Especially compared to 4th which was awful.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Midwest LDS said:

In 5th ed every class has multiple builds you can choose from and one (primal path I believe) has a bunch of supernatural abilities. I love 3.5 (I still have most of the books) but I've played a lit of 5th ed with my group and it's really well done. Especially compared to 4th which was awful.

Thanks bud, I never knew that. 

[JohnsonJones]

When I saw this title I was wondering what Paladins and D&D had in common.

The most famous Paladins are those who were with Charlemagne and his time period.  They were Knights similar in idea or ideals with legendary myths akin to King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table.  There's more substantial historical evidence of their existence (the Paladins) and deeds.

Then I recalled some months ago I believe we had a similar topic and at that time I think paladins were also discussed.  Various elements of D&D were discussed at that time.

We have some young men that play D&D in the ward.  I've found out that there is a substantial number.  It seems odd due to the stereotypical D&D players (at least how they've been portrayed) as being those that are not quite as socially adjusted while being extremely smart.  These boys for the most part appear to be some of the better kids in the ward though.

It's a very odd thing.  There is some sad items where those who are some of the pretty good boys in our ward who play D&D kicked out one or two that probably could have used the socialization of the group more.  I'm not sure why they kicked out those kids, but those two meet what has been seen as the stereotype of D&D players in the past.

The other boys seem to enjoy it too though, even though they are pretty popular kids in the ward and community.  It seems to be bigger today, or at least more popular with the young men (though not really the Young Woman) than it has been for at least a couple decades.

It also seems to be VERY popular here with members on the forums. 

I think I'll do some research during my break this Christmas...and I suppose I can come back and tell you what I've found at and how it may relate to how I can deal better with the Young Men in our ward.  It could be fun to do research into something that I haven't really researched into.  We'll see how much of an expert I can get on the subject between now and when I return in January.  At that point you guys can correct me on what I get right or wrong.

I think I have a son-in-law who is involved in some way with the Tabletop Roleplaying industry and some grandkids that play, that could be interesting to hear their accounts and sides of the coin.

Edited December 20, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[unixknight]

3 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Ah barbarian my favorite spellcaster 😉

 

I'm pretty sure the entire design process for the Barbarian class went something like this:

Boss: Okay guys, so that Conan movie was really great and is a boost to interest in our game.  So, COULD someone be Conan in our game?

Designer: Well, not really.  I mean, you could be a Fighter... and maybe multiclass as a Thief, but you can't really be as powerful as Conan and do all the Conan stuff.

Boss: Ok then, let's make a Barbarian class!

Designer:  Ok great!  Let's start with the hit die.  What should it be?

Boss: Make it a D12.  He should be tougher than a Fighter.

Designer: Ok.  What about the Thief's abilities?

Boss: Give him all the stuff Conan did.

Designer: Ok so he can hide in shadows and he can move silently.  What else?

Boss:  Let's give him some ranger powers.  Conan could track, right?

Designer: Yep, let's add that too.  

Boss: Ok, so Conan mistrusted magic.  Maybe we should make it so he can't use magic items!

Designer: Great!  Only one problem... if he can't use magic, his Armor Class will always be capped at what he can wear that's non-magical.

Boss: Well we wouldn't want to ACTUALLY disadvantage the class, so let's just say his armor class just improves all by itself as he gains levels.

Designer:  Man, you're such a genius, boss!  But what about associating with Clerics and Magic-Users?

Boss: Well that's a pain... let's make that go away as he gains levels too.

Designer: Epic... but wait... Some monsters can only be harmed by magic weapons.  Will the Barbarian be powerless against them?

Boss:  Hmm... you're right.  Ok let' s give him the arbitrary ability to damage creatures that can only be harmed by magic!

Designer: I never would have thought of that!  That's GENIUS!

Boss: That's why I'm the boss, kid.

Designer:  Ok, one other problem... That would also mean he can't use things like potions of healing!

Boss:  That's okay.  Let's give him hitpoints out the wazoo.  Instead of the  usual CON bonus to HP, let's just give  him an additional hit point per level per CON point above 15!

Designer: Excellent idea, boss!  But he still can't use things like Boots of Speed or Magic Carpets... We don't want other members of the adventuring party  to be able to do things the Barbarian can't do!

Boss: BY JOVE!  You're right!!! Let's give him the ability to use magic items.

Designer:  At level 1?

Boss:  Nah, let's make the effort to appear to have a modicum of fairness.  Let's say he gradually gains that as he levels.  And, to make it look like we've at least THOUGHT about balance, let's adjust his XP tables so he levels really slowly.

Designer:  Perfect.

Boss: NO!  Not perfect!  He needs more abilities!

Designer: Like what?

Boss:  Let's give him the ability to summon a horde of Barbarians!

Designer: YES!

Aaaaand done! 

 

 

[unixknight]

9 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Now THAT is a blast form the past!

Of course, my  group couldn't resist plaing them as PCs...

[Jane_Doe]

15 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I never knew that! (Not challenging you, just surprised!) 

What spells are they? 

I'm old school. 3.5 all the way. Almost to the point of being OCD about it.  I know the basics about the other versions. 

It's a nature type spells --- commune with nature and such things.  The RP isn't that it's a "spell", but rather an ability your primal warrior has acquired.  Functionally, it gets the barbarian a bit more flexibility/use beyond hitting and getting hit.  

Edited December 20, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Vort]

My third-hand D&D story:

My younger brother was invited to play D&D when he was at Rick's College. (It may have been Rick himself that invited him. Not sure.) His avatar or character or whatever you call him was an owl, who had the power of flying above the melee and emitting a Sonic Scream that knocked everyone out (except his adventuring party, who judiciously plugged their ears). It always worked, always knocking out everyone who heard it, 100% of the time. No immunity to Sonic Scream, which produced unconsciousness for like three turns and then took a turn to wake up from. Also, his Whatever Status was high enough that he always got to attack first in melee. His only other attack was using his talons—he's a raptor, remember—to do a couple of points of damage to someone.

The game was getting increasingly boring, and his character was becoming increasingly irrelevant. He tried several times to inject new and creative ways to do things, but the DM shut him right down, and the other players told him to shut up and just go along for the ride. So, not being able to participate in any meaningful way and not really wanting to play any more, my brother decided to have some fun.

He told the DM that he was flying above the group, which was fine. Then without warning, he told the DM that he emitted a Sonic Scream. "Great job," the DM said sarcastically. "Everyone is unconscious." So then he told the DM, "I fly down to Thus-and-such fighter and tear at his face." Sure enough, he did a couple of hit points of damage to the defenseless fighter. Then, when the party was waking up, he flew up high again and emitted another Sonic Scream.

You can see where this is going.

Of course, so did everyone else, and they were not happy. The DM, sensing doom, quickly decided that the other characters were developing a "resistance" to Sonic Scream. Which was bogus, of course. But I guess they dispatched the owl, my brother finished his first (and last) D&D adventure, and the group continued merrily onward, sans owl, while my brother went next door to talk to the cute girl in his FHE group.

[mirkwood]

23 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Yep, it had the wizard cover when I first  got into it.  

Yeah Unearthed Arcana was a weird animal.  They moved the Paladin to be a subclass of Cavalier but it was unclear which XP table to use, what type of hit die... That book also introduced the Assassin... which was useless in a campaign where there's no evil PCs, the Thief-Acrobat which nobody ever played in any group I was in... and... 

ugh.

the Barbarian.  Most broken, most obviously-non-playtested Conan fanboy class ever introduced.

Assassins were in the first book too.  I tried a thief acrobat and after a couple of sessions just made him a normal thief.  We played an all barbarian party when the class first came out in The Dragon, but it was a short lived campaign.  Who wants to play characters that won't use magic?