The Kingdom of Heaven

[Rob Osborn]

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on what the Kingdom of Heaven is, what it includes and doesn't include. Jesus speaks a lot about the Kingdom of Heaven and the many mansions there. What are your thoughts?

[estradling75]

My Vote/thoughts/understanding is that any Kingdom of Glory is part of the "Kingdom of Heaven".  Although I fully recognize that some times it is used to mean Celestial Kingdom exclusively.  This is because language is flexible and changes rather then being static and locked in.

The scriptures are clear that there is a difference between Salvation and Exaltation (aka a Crown of Righteousness).  Thus Christ will save all that the Father has put into his hands (aka all but the Sons of Perdition)  but not all will be capable of bearing the weight of Glory that is the Celestial Kingdom.

Now for the Telestial Kingdom (those that go to Hell first) we get a good example of how this works in the case of Alma the Younger.  He rebelled, he rejected, and he went to hell where he suffered the pains of a damned soul.  He stayed in that state until he called upon Christ and repented.  That is the only way out.  You suffer for your sins in Hell until you turn it over to Christ, then you are redeemed.  Now Alma the Younger converted while still in mortally, and clearly showed a willingness to do more and therefore showed himself willing to bear the weight of a Greater Glory.  Those in the Telestial Kingdom will be freed from the pains of Hell but will be unwilling to bear the weight of a greater glory 

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

My Vote/thoughts/understanding is that any Kingdom of Glory is part of the "Kingdom of Heaven".  Although I fully recognize that some times it is used to mean Celestial Kingdom exclusively.  This is because language is flexible and changes rather then being static and locked in.

The scriptures are clear that there is a difference between Salvation and Exaltation (aka a Crown of Righteousness).  Thus Christ will save all that the Father has put into his hands (aka all but the Sons of Perdition)  but not all will be capable of bearing the weight of Glory that is the Celestial Kingdom.

Now for the Telestial Kingdom (those that go to Hell first) we get a good example of how this works in the case of Alma the Younger.  He rebelled, he rejected, and he went to hell where he suffered the pains of a damned soul.  He stayed in that state until he called upon Christ and repented.  That is the only way out.  You suffer for your sins in Hell until you turn it over to Christ, then you are redeemed.  Now Alma the Younger converted while still in mortally, and clearly showed a willingness to do more and therefore showed himself willing to bear the weight of a Greater Glory.  Those in the Telestial Kingdom will be freed from the pains of Hell but will be unwilling to bear the weight of a greater glory 

Do you believe the Telestial heirs will be cleansed? And, how do you fit this verse into what you believe-

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness. (Alma 7:14)

[Guest Scott]

Here is what the Bible Dictionary says:
Kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God 

These terms are used in various combinations and with varying meanings. Generally speaking, the kingdom of God on the earth is the Church. It is a preparation for the greater kingdom—the celestial or kingdom of heaven. This is the manner in which these terms are used in D&C 65. However, kingdom of heaven is sometimes used in scripture to mean the Church (as in Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 13; and 25:1–13), meaning that the true church on the earth is the path to heaven and is the kingdom of heaven on earth.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on the earth but is at the present limited to an ecclesiastical kingdom. During the millennial era, the kingdom of God will be both political and ecclesiastical (see Dan. 7:18, 22, 27; Rev. 11:15; JST Rev. 12:1–3, 7 [Appendix]; D&C 65) and will have worldwide jurisdiction in political realms when the Lord has made “a full end of all nations” (D&C 87:6).

[estradling75]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Do you believe the Telestial heirs will be cleansed? And, how do you fit this verse into what you believe-

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness. (Alma 7:14)

What part of 

Quote

You suffer for your sins in Hell until you turn it over to Christ, then you are redeemed. 

Was unclear?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

What part of 

Was unclear?

Do you think they repent, get baptized, change their carnal nature? That's what I was asking.

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Do you think they repent, get baptized, change their carnal nature? That's what I was asking.

And I repeat

 

9 hours ago, estradling75 said:

 You suffer for your sins in Hell until you turn it over to Christ, then you are redeemed.

Why is that so hard for your to understand?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

And I repeat

 

Why is that so hard for your to understand?

So, you don't believe they repent and are baptized? Is that correct?

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, you don't believe they repent and are baptized? Is that correct?

Really that is what you think it means to "turn things over to Christ and be redeemed by him" then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Christ's atonement works...  No point in even trying to talk to you about anything if you have such a deeply flawed understanding of the basics

[Rob Osborn]

47 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Really that is what you think it means to "turn things over to Christ and be redeemed by him" then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Christ's atonement works...  No point in even trying to talk to you about anything if you have such a deeply flawed understanding of the basics

Sorry but it's just that everyone has their own way of saying things. Just trying to ask you if you personally believe the Telestial heirs will have to repent and be baptized. Appease my inquiry please.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Sorry but it's just that everyone has their own way of saying things. Just trying to ask you if you personally believe the Telestial heirs will have to repent and be baptized. Appease my inquiry please.

Baptism is only a requirement for those that are going to the celestial kingdom. Here is a good source for information about each Kingdom.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Baptism is only a requirement for those that are going to the celestial kingdom. Here is a good source for information about each Kingdom.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng

How then are they cleansed? It's not possible to be cleansed by suffering alone. 

[estradling75]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Sorry but it's just that everyone has their own way of saying things. Just trying to ask you if you personally believe the Telestial heirs will have to repent and be baptized. Appease my inquiry please.

Yes I do...  Let me expand on why.

Most of Christiandom believes in a binary model of Heaven and Hell.  You have the saved who are cleaned and redeemed from Sin in Heaven(Kindom Of) and those would are not saved, who are filthy still,  and unredeemed in Hell.  There is a very good reason for this.  That is what the bible teaches... it is also what the Book of Mormon teaches.  Sure there are some vague comments about Many Mansions and being Rewarded based on Works, but those do not have any details.

Lucky for us Faithful Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in continuing Revelations (Article of Faith 9  We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.)

And we did receive Greater Light and Knowledge on this Subject. In D&C 76 God expanded upon what the Kingdom of Heaven looks like.  We do not find this expanded any where else but in the Modern Prophets.  Sadly those who reject this greater light then try to demand that we prove it by the lesser light... and that simply can not happen.  The Lesser light does not contain the Greater.  

However the Greater Light still contains the sum total of the Lesser Light.  We see this in D&C 76.  Read the section and of the Four Groups described only one group is described as "Not Redeemed"  The group that gets that description is those without Glory, the Sons of Perdition.

This "Not Redeemed" Group represents the Binary Division talked about in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, thus the Lesser Light is still there.

Since we are all filthy sinners in need of redemption, but only one group remains so.  It seems self evident to me that all the rest become clean/redeemed.   There is only one way to become clean/redeemed from Sin given in the scripture.  The Atonement of Jesus Christ.  Any other means is speculative and not supported by current revelations (and I do not expect there be any given).  We are taught that there are two ways the Atonement can work.  Either through Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost etc.  Or being Without Law (including Kids below the age of accountablity).  Any other means is speculative and not supported by current revelations.

This is why I feel that the Telestial Kingdom is part of the Kingdom of Heaven, because the dividing line is "Not Redeemed"  And there is only one method of being "Redeemed" which means all the rest must be partakers.  The dividing line of the Kingdom of Heaven's degrees of Glory appears to be the quality of our Faith (Such divisions and their requirements being the Greater Light) not our Clean/Redeemed Status.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's not possible to be cleansed by suffering alone. 

Where did you get that idea?

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110

Edited January 4, 2019 by Emmanuel Goldstein

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Yes I do...  Let me expand on why.

Most of Christiandom believes in a binary model of Heaven and Hell.  You have the saved who are cleaned and redeemed from Sin in Heaven(Kindom Of) and those would are not saved, who are filthy still,  and unredeemed in Hell.  There is a very good reason for this.  That is what the bible teaches... it is also what the Book of Mormon teaches.  Sure there are some vague comments about Many Mansions and being Rewarded based on Works, but those do not have any details.

Lucky for us Faithful Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in continuing Revelations (Article of Faith 9  We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.)

And we did receive Greater Light and Knowledge on this Subject. In D&C 76 God expanded upon what the Kingdom of Heaven looks like.  We do not find this expanded any where else but in the Modern Prophets.  Sadly those who reject this greater light then try to demand that we prove it by the lesser light... and that simply can not happen.  The Lesser light does not contain the Greater.  

However the Greater Light still contains the sum total of the Lesser Light.  We see this in D&C 76.  Read the section and of the Four Groups described only one group is described as "Not Redeemed"  The group that gets that description is those without Glory, the Sons of Perdition.

This "Not Redeemed" Group represents the Binary Division talked about in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, thus the Lesser Light is still there.

Since we are all filthy sinners in need of redemption, but only one group remains so.  It seems self evident to me that all the rest become clean/redeemed.   There is only one way to become clean/redeemed from Sin given in the scripture.  The Atonement of Jesus Christ.  Any other means is speculative and not supported by current revelations (and I do not expect there be any given).  We are taught that there are two ways the Atonement can work.  Either through Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost etc.  Or being Without Law (including Kids below the age of accountablity).  Any other means is speculative and not supported by current revelations.

This is why I feel that the Telestial Kingdom is part of the Kingdom of Heaven, because the dividing line is "Not Redeemed"  And there is only one method of being "Redeemed" which means all the rest must be partakers.  The dividing line of the Kingdom of Heaven's degrees of Glory appears to be the quality of our Faith (Such divisions and their requirements being the Greater Light) not our Clean/Redeemed Status.

Thanks for expounding your beliefs, much appreciated. Now I think we can have better dialogue. I believe we both believe the doctrine on principle on almost all points, I take great joy in that. My own understanding of the doctrine has changed over the years, been slowly advancing in further light and knowledge. My first real breakthrough was when I came to the conclusion that all kingdoms had to repent and be baptized. That was determined from establishing the principle of redemption and how one is forgiven and cleansed from all sin. I was pretty happy for a long time. And then contradictions started popping in. I studied it out more, then the eyes were opened to the temple dialogue and the next thing I knew was that my whole paradigm had changed. I saw it in a whole new light.

From there I had to go back and read the Book of Mormon over with new understanding and it was then that I started receiving real confirmation of the absolute truths concerning Christ's doctrine as found in the Book of Mormon. I still had hurdles though. Specifically, the D&C seemed contradictory. So, I continued to study and pray and then it clicked one night that section 76 is largely misunderstood. One thing that happened was researching recordings of Joseph Smith. Several things stood out. The first was that it appears over the course of Joseph's life that even his view of salvation shifted. In the end he came to realize the essential requirement to repent and be baptized was the only ticket out of hell. That's a huge paradigm shift for him who very early on championed the idea that much of Christianity would be damned and then saved without repentance and baptism in a lower kingdom.

Then he spoke about climbing the rungs of a ladder and that one must begin on the bottom and ascend one by one until perfection was achieved. This came along with his expounding upon Jacobs ladder where the three rungs represented the telestial, terrestrial and Celestial. Then came this I found in reference to section 76. Note the words-

"The sublimity of the ideas; the purity of the language; the scope for action; the continued duration for completion, in order that the heirs of salvation may confess the Lord and bow the knee;"

Wording specific, whether he realized what he was saying at the time or not, the continued duration for completion is more reminiscent of the progression of man through world's of glory, or as climbing from one rung to the next on a ladder, from kingdom to kingdom until they become cleansed and perfected as a singular body of saints presented spotless to the Father.

Well, then I had to start over again, new paradigm shift again. It was at this point I made a lot of flow charts, scriptures references and groupings, checks and counter checks, and restructured section 76. It was then I saw the simpleness of the vision. The vision was in inquiry by Joseph Smith that certainly there must be more places the saved go as it didn't seem feasible that all could attain perfection. The spirit then shows Joseph the duration for completion to really perfect those He saved. At the time even Joseph didn't fully understand the vision. But, luckily for us, it was written in such a manner that can be decided so to speak and fully realized. Thus, in speaking of the just and the unjust the Lord shows Joseph that all of the saved who come forth in the resurrection of the just, those whom are saved from the eternal hell, are spoken of in verses 50-70. I couldn't believe it!! So, I cross referenced each verse and the qualifications and attributes of the saved and sure enough, the characteristics of all the saved are recorded in those verses. The Lord is trying to show Joseph that in the end, at the end of the millennium, those whom he saves all become this- son's and daughters of God, their names written in heaven, sanctified from all sin, etc.

It is under this premise that the endowment makes sense. The endowment is the whole plan of salvation. In order to be saved, both the living or the dead, have to enter in and obey all the covenants given. Given, is that this all doesn't happen during our mortal sojourn. We are told there that the telestial kingdom is in fact the very world we are now in. From there we advance into the terrestrial kingdom and from there to the Celestial. Just like the rungs of the ladder Joseph extrapolated on, we do indeed progress from one kingdom to the next until we become all perfected as one body of saints all to receive eternal life like the scriptures speak of.

So, what then remains is how we, as a body, advance our paradigm into alignment with what has been revealed. My point in this post is to try to get people sold on the idea that in the end, the kingdom of heaven is truly only the Celestial kingdom and all of the saved will be there just as is recorded by St. John the divine in the last book of the NT. It must come full circle, and it does once we realize these truths.

[estradling75]

On 1/4/2019 at 1:03 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Thanks for expounding your beliefs, much appreciated. Now I think we can have better dialogue. I believe we both believe the doctrine on principle on almost all points, I take great joy in that. My own understanding of the doctrine has changed over the years, been slowly advancing in further light and knowledge. My first real breakthrough was when I came to the conclusion that all kingdoms had to repent and be baptized. That was determined from establishing the principle of redemption and how one is forgiven and cleansed from all sin. I was pretty happy for a long time. And then contradictions started popping in. I studied it out more, then the eyes were opened to the temple dialogue and the next thing I knew was that my whole paradigm had changed. I saw it in a whole new light.

From there I had to go back and read the Book of Mormon over with new understanding and it was then that I started receiving real confirmation of the absolute truths concerning Christ's doctrine as found in the Book of Mormon. I still had hurdles though. Specifically, the D&C seemed contradictory. So, I continued to study and pray and then it clicked one night that section 76 is largely misunderstood. One thing that happened was researching recordings of Joseph Smith. Several things stood out. The first was that it appears over the course of Joseph's life that even his view of salvation shifted. In the end he came to realize the essential requirement to repent and be baptized was the only ticket out of hell. That's a huge paradigm shift for him who very early on championed the idea that much of Christianity would be damned and then saved without repentance and baptism in a lower kingdom.

Then he spoke about climbing the rungs of a ladder and that one must begin on the bottom and ascend one by one until perfection was achieved. This came along with his expounding upon Jacobs ladder where the three rungs represented the telestial, terrestrial and Celestial. Then came this I found in reference to section 76. Note the words-

"The sublimity of the ideas; the purity of the language; the scope for action; the continued duration for completion, in order that the heirs of salvation may confess the Lord and bow the knee;"

Wording specific, whether he realized what he was saying at the time or not, the continued duration for completion is more reminiscent of the progression of man through world's of glory, or as climbing from one rung to the next on a ladder, from kingdom to kingdom until they become cleansed and perfected as a singular body of saints presented spotless to the Father.

Well, then I had to start over again, new paradigm shift again. It was at this point I made a lot of flow charts, scriptures references and groupings, checks and counter checks, and restructured section 76. It was then I saw the simpleness of the vision. The vision was in inquiry by Joseph Smith that certainly there must be more places the saved go as it didn't seem feasible that all could attain perfection. The spirit then shows Joseph the duration for completion to really perfect those He saved. At the time even Joseph didn't fully understand the vision. But, luckily for us, it was written in such a manner that can be decided so to speak and fully realized. Thus, in speaking of the just and the unjust the Lord shows Joseph that all of the saved who come forth in the resurrection of the just, those whom are saved from the eternal hell, are spoken of in verses 50-70. I couldn't believe it!! So, I cross referenced each verse and the qualifications and attributes of the saved and sure enough, the characteristics of all the saved are recorded in those verses. The Lord is trying to show Joseph that in the end, at the end of the millennium, those whom he saves all become this- son's and daughters of God, their names written in heaven, sanctified from all sin, etc.

It is under this premise that the endowment makes sense. The endowment is the whole plan of salvation. In order to be saved, both the living or the dead, have to enter in and obey all the covenants given. Given, is that this all doesn't happen during our mortal sojourn. We are told there that the telestial kingdom is in fact the very world we are now in. From there we advance into the terrestrial kingdom and from there to the Celestial. Just like the rungs of the ladder Joseph extrapolated on, we do indeed progress from one kingdom to the next until we become all perfected as one body of saints all to receive eternal life like the scriptures speak of.

So, what then remains is how we, as a body, advance our paradigm into alignment with what has been revealed. My point in this post is to try to get people sold on the idea that in the end, the kingdom of heaven is truly only the Celestial kingdom and all of the saved will be there just as is recorded by St. John the divine in the last book of the NT. It must come full circle, and it does once we realize these truths.

And here you go yet again.

I will repeat what I said the last time you claimed the prophets are in error and your interpretation is correct. You are entitled to your interpretation.  But those that have diligently studied the scriptures and have a testimony of the current prophets will know it is their solemn and sacred duty to reject your claims.  Our duty is to follow the Spirit of Revelation and the Prophet of God..  Not Rob Osborn..  And since it is clear you do not get this nor have you ever gotten this in the years you have been making the claims I see no reason to continue in this thread 

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And here you go yet again.

I will repeat what I said the last time you claimed the prophets are in error and your interpretation is correct. You are entitled to your interpretation.  But those that have diligently studied the scriptures and have a testimony of the current prophets will know it is their solemn and sacred duty to reject your claims.  Our duty is to follow the Spirit of Revelation and the Prophet of God..  Not Rob Osborn..  And since it is clear you do not get this nor have you ever gotten this in the years you have been making the claims I see no reason to continue in this thread 

I'm only putting together what prophets have revealed. How is that in error? If I go to the temple prep class and they teach me that the endowment is the plan of salvation and then I go to the temple for my endowment and it explains there that we are now in the telestial kingdom and so I believe it am I in error?

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm only putting together what prophets have revealed. How is that in error? If I go to the temple prep class and they teach me that the endowment is the plan of salvation and then I go to the temple for my endowment and it explains there that we are now in the telestial kingdom and so I believe it am I in error?

You can believe what you wish to believe...that is always your right.  Your claims that you know the truth that the prophets and church is wrong is where you are wrong, in error, and rejected soundly... Which we have told you repeatedly.  Which you have repeatedly ignored

[Rob Osborn]

45 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You can believe what you wish to believe...that is always your right.  Your claims that you know the truth that the prophets and church is wrong is where you are wrong, in error, and rejected soundly... Which we have told you repeatedly.  Which you have repeatedly ignored

Is this statement wrong-

We live in the Telestial kingdom.

[estradling75]

32 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Is this statement wrong-

We live in the Telestial kingdom.

You evade the simple point that Rob Osborn is not the prophet and he is not the Holy Spirit.  Therefore Rob Osborn is not a source of truth and light. Where Rob Osborn contradicts what the Lord's appointed leaders say on a subject he is to be rejected.   I see no point in going through this once again...  Good bye

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You evade the simple point that Rob Osborn is not the prophet and he is not the Holy Spirit.  Therefore Rob Osborn is not a source of truth and light. Where Rob Osborn contradicts what the Lord's appointed leaders say on a subject he is to be rejected.   I see no point in going through this once again...  Good bye

I spent some time responding a few posts back. I thought we shared a lot in common. I thought perhaps we thought a lot the same. Did you even read my post talking about Joseph Smith and how he spoke about therungs of a ladder, ascending kingdoms, the endowment,etc?

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm only putting together what prophets have revealed. How is that in error? If I go to the temple prep class and they teach me that the endowment is the plan of salvation and then I go to the temple for my endowment and it explains there that we are now in the telestial kingdom and so I believe it am I in error?

It doesn't teach that. You are wrong. Period. It speaks of representation and uses the word "or". Go back and listen again. Not that it will do any good because you plainly either cannot or will not understand. You are in error. There is absolutely no if, ands, or buts about it. You - are - wrong!

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Is this statement wrong-

We live in the Telestial kingdom.

YES, IT IS WRONG!!!

[wenglund]

23 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, just for the record, it actually does say that the world room represents the telestial kingdom or the world we now live in. The instruction tells us this world is the telestial kingdom. After that Elohim instructs his Messengers to go down to Adam and Eve in the telestial world. And, also for the record, a prophet of God agrees with me-

"To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t,not a c" https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/11/saturday-morning-session/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng&_r=1

Is a prophet of God wrong? 

At the risk of getting caught in an endless and counterproductive loop of days past, there are kingdoms on earth and kingdoms in heaven, kingdoms of mortality and kingdoms of immortality.  temporal kingdoms and eternal kingdoms.

Conflating the two sets of kingdoms will cause confusion and may lead to espousal of beliefs in opposition to divinely chosen church leaders. Sound familiar?

Questions like, "Do we live in the telestial kingdom?" lend themselves to conflation, not only because they fail to differentiate between the two, but also because, to the mind of most members, the phrase "telestial kingdom" is rightly understood as referring to the heavenly and immortal and eternal kingdom rather than the esoteric  meaning of earthly and mortal and temporal kingdom. In that regard, TFP is correct about you being incorrect, your quote from Elder Holland notwithstanding.

To avoid conflation in the future, the question needs to be qualified something along the lines of: "Are we in a mortal and temporal, earthly telestial kingdom as differentiated from an immortal and eternal, heavenly telestial kingdom?"

I understand that doing so may work at cross purposes when pitching your Protestant and church-leader-defying beliefs about the after-life, but intellectual honesty demand it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

56 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, just for the record, [temple stuff we shouldn't be talking about]

Punctuation matters.

Maybe you should try and get into a situation where you have the opportunity to review the text (meaning inside the temple).

57 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

"To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t,not a c" https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/11/saturday-morning-session/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng&_r=1

Is a prophet of God wrong? 

Elder Holland is intelligent enough to understand what the word "represents" means and assumes that everyone else is capable of understanding the implication.

I will not discuss the temple ordinances with you any more. We have been specifically asked not to do this.

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, wenglund said:

At the risk of getting caught in an endless and counterproductive loop of days past, there are kingdoms on earth and kingdoms in heaven, kingdoms of mortality and kingdoms of immortality.  temporal kingdoms and eternal kingdoms.

Conflating the two sets of kingdoms will cause confusion and may lead to espousal of beliefs in opposition to divinely chosen church leaders. Sound familiar?

Questions like, "Do we live in the telestial kingdom?" lend themselves to conflation, not only because they fail to differentiate between the two, but also because, to the mind of most members, the phrase "telestial kingdom" is rightly understood as referring to the heavenly and immortal and eternal kingdom rather than the esoteric  meaning of earthly and mortal and temporal kingdom. In that regard, TFP is correct about you being incorrect, your quote from Elder Holland notwithstanding.

To avoid conflation in the future, the question needs to be qualified something along the lines of: "Are we in a mortal and temporal, earthly telestial kingdom as differentiated from an immortal and eternal, heavenly telestial kingdom?"

I understand that doing so may work at cross purposes when pitching your Protestant and church-leader-defying beliefs about the after-life, but intellectual honesty demand it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Indeed... we read in D&C 130: 2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

We do not have an Eternal Glory now per the D&C...Most understandings of the Degrees of Glory... well require some Glory.  Could we be in Telestial world without Telestial Glory right now?  Sure why not.  But to be the Telestial Kingdom we need a Telestial Glory as most people would understand and use the term.