John and Paul on visiting to/from heaven

[askandanswer]

2^nd Corinthians 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

 

Is Paul’s statement that he was caught up to a heaven consistent with John’s statement that no man hath ascended to heaven except the Son?

[mikbone]

Sure.

whether in or out of the body I cannot tell.

Must have been out of the body.  Likely was a vision similar to D&C 76.

This is also interesting from the chapter heading of D&C 76...  114–19, The faithful may see and understand the mysteries of God’s kingdom by the power of the Holy Spirit

 

[Midwest LDS]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

2^nd Corinthians 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

 

Is Paul’s statement that he was caught up to a heaven consistent with John’s statement that no man hath ascended to heaven except the Son?

I believe so. From these two verses it seems like the man Paul is refering to received a vision of the third heaven. Especially with his comment about not knowing if he was in the body or not, as that sounds consistent with other mighty visions in the scriptures (Moses, Enoch, some of Joseph Smith's visions.)

Also, while no one knows for sure, some scholars believe 2nd Corinthians was written in the late 50's AD, which would be about 25-30 years after Christ's Resurrection so Christ would already have ascended to heaven. Therefore he had completed his Atonement, and opened the doors of heaven for us by this point. It says that many were resurrected following Christ's Resurrection in the scriptures (3rd Nephi 23:9 and Matthew 27:52-53) so according to my understanding that means they would have beem judged and I assume have received their inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom, so they must have ascended to heaven. This paragraph is just some speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Midwest LDS

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

2^nd Corinthians 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

 

Is Paul’s statement that he was caught up to a heaven consistent with John’s statement that no man hath ascended to heaven except the Son?

There’s a big difference between permanently ascending into heaven with an immortal glorified resurrected body and temporarily seeing a vision of heaven while yet in mortality.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

2^nd Corinthians 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

 

Is Paul’s statement that he was caught up to a heaven consistent with John’s statement that no man hath ascended to heaven except the Son?

I will give a quick answer based upon a theory.  The Theory is that when Adam fell - all the children of G-d were exiled from the heaven which is the kingdom of G-d.  We then, in exile, Jesus becomes our G-d and Mediator with the Father.  Only Jesus deals directly with the Father (except when the Father gives witness to the Son) and we deal with Jesus to obtain the father.  Thus the Father instructs Jesus who then instructs his apostles and disciples. 

Thus the person caught up to the "third heaven" met there with Jesus Christ - but until the plan of salvation is completed (as we are fallen) then only Jesus is able to ascend up the that heaven where the Father is to represent us as the Mediator.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I will give a quick answer based upon a theory.  The Theory is that when Adam fell - all the children of G-d were exiled from the heaven which is the kingdom of G-d.  We then, in exile, Jesus becomes our G-d and Mediator with the Father.  Only Jesus deals directly with the Father (except when the Father gives witness to the Son) and we deal with Jesus to obtain the father.  Thus the Father instructs Jesus who then instructs his apostles and disciples. 

Thus the person caught up to the "third heaven" met there with Jesus Christ - but until the plan of salvation is completed (as we are fallen) then only Jesus is able to ascend up the that heaven where the Father is to represent us as the Mediator.

 

The Traveler

It sounds okay except I tend to think that we were still with the Father until we each come to earth.

[Jersey Boy]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I will give a quick answer based upon a theory.  The Theory is that when Adam fell - all the children of G-d were exiled from the heaven which is the kingdom of G-d.  We then, in exile, Jesus becomes our G-d and Mediator with the Father.  Only Jesus deals directly with the Father (except when the Father gives witness to the Son) and we deal with Jesus to obtain the father.  Thus the Father instructs Jesus who then instructs his apostles and disciples. 

Thus the person caught up to the "third heaven" met there with Jesus Christ - but until the plan of salvation is completed (as we are fallen) then only Jesus is able to ascend up the that heaven where the Father is to represent us as the Mediator.

 

The Traveler

If we didn’t need to look to Christ as our Savior and the source of our strength until Adam fell, how do you explain the following:

“Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus Christ and His followers. The Savior’s followers “overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11). (from the LDS.org page on the war in heaven)

Edited January 29, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[askandanswer]

Its not immediately clear to me how Adam's wrongdoing led to my expulsion from God's presence. I hadn't done anything wrong up until that point, why then should i be cast out?

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

If we didn’t need to look to Christ as our Savior and the source of our strength until Adam fell, how do you explain the following:

“Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus Christ and His followers. The Savior’s followers “overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11). (from the LDS.org page on the war in heaven)

What I was implying is that we did not need Christ as a Mediator to come to the Father.  This should not affect the importance of Christ in our pre-existence.  Our status with the Father changed with the Fall that required a Mediator.  Obviously the Fall of affected all of us - my theory was that our status with the Father changed because of the fall. 

 

The Traveler

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

my theory was that our status with the Father changed because of the fall. 

I think our status changes when each of us fall in mortality, not that it changed for everyone when Adam fell.

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Its not immediately clear to me how Adam's wrongdoing led to my expulsion from God's presence. I hadn't done anything wrong up until that point, why then should i be cast out?

There is no question that there was a man called Adam - he was Michael who help Jesus with the creation.  However, it is important to realize that in ancient Hebrew tradition names were of great significance.  So important were names that often angles would appear to parents and inform them what their child must be named when born.  In addition there are scripture accounts of names being changed by divine decree.

The first man was named Adam by divine decree - I assume this name (Adam) was no accident or coincidence but rather a divine sign or indication of the importance of our first mortal parent (father) as well as a sacred clue concerning his (Michael's roll) in the plan of salvation.  The name "Adam" in ancient Hebrew means, mankind.  I assume that this name (Adam) is intended that the man Adam (Michael) and his wife Eve stand as proxy for all us in the Eden epoch that brought about the fall of us all.  That we exercised our agency to accept the Fall of Adam and the Atonement of Christ as critical elements of the plan of salvation.  That Adam would represent us (by proxy) in the Fall and that Jesus would represent us (by proxy) in the atonement to pay for our sins.

So it is my theory that in the pre-existence we stood before the Father and made known (act of agency) that we accepted Adam as our proxy for the fall and in so doing were place as exile citizens of a lessor kingdom overseen by Jesus that was our Mediator G-d with the Father.  In this role Jesus is our only G-d and hope that can bring us back to the Father.  This bringing us back to the Father will take place at what is called the final judgement when we will stand again before the Father and make known (as an act of our agency) that we accept Jesus as our proxy (Mediator G-d) to atone both for our sins during our probation and our transgression by proxy (through the act of our agency) in accepting Adam's proxy fall for all mankind.

 

The Traveler

 

I would also note that in the beginning of Job we see where Satan appears (in heaven) at the throne of G-d.  If Satan was exiled from Heaven how is he appearing in Heaven?  The answer is that he is appearing in the heaven overseen by Jesus

[Traveler]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think our status changes when each of us fall in mortality, not that it changed for everyone when Adam fell.

That certainly is a possibility - it is just that it does not make sense to me.  Not from the standpoint of agency, not from the logic of the plan of salvation, not from the concept or doctrine that the fall changed more than just Adam and Eve, and not from the logic of justice that we - by no fault of our own were separated from the Father - regardless of when that separation or fall took place.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

That certainly is a possibility - it is just that it does not make sense to me.  Not from the standpoint of agency, not from the logic of the plan of salvation, not from the concept or doctrine that the fall changed more than just Adam and Eve, and not from the logic of justice that we - by no fault of our own were separated from the Father - regardless of when that separation or fall took place.

 

The Traveler

I'm curious as to how you hash out these details, especially the part about agency and the logic of the plan of salvation. I'm not saying you are wrong, just never heard this before and I'm curious. 

[JohnsonJones]

47 minutes ago, Traveler said:

That certainly is a possibility - it is just that it does not make sense to me.  Not from the standpoint of agency, not from the logic of the plan of salvation, not from the concept or doctrine that the fall changed more than just Adam and Eve, and not from the logic of justice that we - by no fault of our own were separated from the Father - regardless of when that separation or fall took place.

 

The Traveler

Well...

The following is a response to what you wrote above that, but it is merely a passing thought I have on it, NOT an opinion, not a belief, nor anything more...

Brigham Young posited something similar in what you wrote. 

In it, Adam would mean the word man or mankind.  It was not just a name, it also expressed who and what he was.

Hence, Adam (man) came down in an immortal body.  To do so he departed from his Father (Adam, which meant that his father was ALSO of the race of man, but was FATHER Man [Adam] rather than Adam [man] and indicates that as Adam was an Immortal Man, so his father ALSO was of an immortal nature).  This Adam (man) came with a wife (Eve, which also has a meaning) and dwelt in the Garden of Eden.  He then had to partake of mortality by taking fruits that were native to this world or earth so that his body would create mortal bodies.  Thus he ate what we called the Forbidden Fruit as did his wife and they had mortal children.

He also taught that we all accepted this plan and as such were born as children of Adam and Eve (or, at least via ancestry back to them).

The interesting thing is that Brigham Young would thus argue that Adam WAS ALSO the son of our Father in Heaven in a very real sense.  There were differences between him and the Savior.  The Savior would be born of an Immortal and Eternal Father and a Mortal Woman while we only know that Adam was the literal son of an Immortal Father.  That only the Savior would be begotten in this world both immortal and mortal, having the ability to die but also the ability to rise again, and that only he would be the Begotton one physically BORN on THIS Earth.

This idea of his is commonly misunderstood by MANY.  It is also not doctrine but it was an interesting idea that he posited or put forth on the pulpit at various occasions.  I mention it today it because of it's similarities with what you posted.

However, I'm not so sure I agree with the idea that we all fell to a lesser kingdom upon the Fall of Adam.  I would think that this is not so, and that in fact we remained in the pre-existence that we originally were in until it came for our turn to come to Earth and obtain mortal bodies.

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

What I was implying is that we did not need Christ as a Mediator to come to the Father.  This should not affect the importance of Christ in our pre-existence.  Our status with the Father changed with the Fall that required a Mediator.  Obviously the Fall of affected all of us - my theory was that our status with the Father changed because of the fall. 

 

The Traveler

 

 

While our status did most certainly change, I don’t think it changed as much as some might suppose. If the only way we were able to defeat Satan and his hosts in the pre-earth life is through our faith in the atoning blood of Christ, it’s very likely that any spiritual growth and maintainence of purity we obtained there was also due to our faith in the atoning blood of Christ. As long as imperfect beings of sufficient intelligence have freedom of choice, they need a Saviour to help them remain pure before God in their imperfection.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm curious as to how you hash out these details, especially the part about agency and the logic of the plan of salvation. I'm not saying you are wrong, just never heard this before and I'm curious. 

Agency requires choices with consequences (consequences can be both beneficial or bring about loss).   It seem logical that being involved, even by proxy would justly result in a change (lowering) of status similar to Adam and Eve.  The logic of the plan of salvation is that there is one fall that resulted in all the covenant children of the Father to fall from The Father's grace - not billions of falls that would be mandated as a consequence of what that was not enacted or a consequence of when Adam and Eve fell?

Under the plan of salvation, Jesus Christ (Jehovah) would be the one and only deity that would govern the outcast and complete the law through the atonement.  Thus the fall and the atonement are the bookends events that justify both law and circumstance that govern our probation from the Fall of Adam and Eve until we all are resurrected.

I have tried to logicly justify something different - But logic indicates only one fall and the logic of Job 1 starting with verse 6 indicates the Jehovah was and is presiding over a kingdom that is more than just the mortal creatures of earth but includes spirits that are righteous "sons of G-d".  Since Jehovah is a G-d and the governor of righteous spirits - all angles sent to mortals would come from his presents rather than from the Father.  Only Jehovah would or could be in the presents of the Father following the fall.  Thus the Father (Elohim) would instruct Jehovah that would govern the fallen spirits (the spirits with mortal bodies, the spirits waiting birth and the spirits waiting the resurrection).

Of course something else is possible - but all other possibilities I have considered lack both logic and scriptural backing.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 31, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Agency requires choices with consequences (consequences can be both beneficial or bring about loss).   It seem logical that being involved, even by proxy would justly result in a change (lowering) of status similar to Adam and Eve.  The logic of the plan of salvation is that there is one fall that resulted in all the covenant children of the Father to fall from The Father's grace - not billions of falls that would be mandated as a consequence of what that was not enacted or a consequence of when Adam and Eve fell?

Under the plan of salvation, Jesus Christ (Jehovah) would be the one and only deity that would govern the outcast and complete the law through the atonement.  Thus the fall and the atonement are the bookends events that justify both law and circumstance that govern our probation from the Fall of Adam and Eve until we all are resurrected.

I have tried to logicly justify something different - But logic indicates only one fall and the logic of Job 1 starting with verse 6 indicates the Jehovah was and is presiding over a kingdom that is more than just the mortal creatures of earth but includes spirits that are righteous "sons of G-d".  Since Jehovah is a G-d and the governor of righteous spirits - all angles sent to mortals would come from his presents rather than from the Father.  Only Jehovah would or could be in the presents of the Father following the fall.  Thus the Father (Elohim) would instruct Jehovah that would govern the fallen spirits (the spirits with mortal bodies, the spirits waiting birth and the spirits waiting the resurrection).

Of course something else is possible - but all other possibilities I have considered lack both logic and scriptural backing.

 

The Traveler

 

The

Well, there is scriptural backing for our own individual falls.

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

While our status did most certainly change, I don’t think it changed as much as some might suppose. If the only way we were able to defeat Satan and his hosts in the pre-earth life is through our faith in the atoning blood of Christ, it’s very likely that any spiritual growth and maintainence of purity we obtained there was also due to our faith in the atoning blood of Christ. As long as imperfect beings of sufficient intelligence have freedom of choice, they need a Saviour to help them remain pure before God in their imperfection.

Here is a thought for you.  We know that agency was a critical and important element of the war in heaven from which Lucifer was cast out and became Satan.   Agency implies an choice to align with something.  As we chose to become agences of Christ - through that agency; Christ is then tied by covenant to our sins.  This gives him responsibility for our sins even though he did not commit them - which means that he can justly atone for our sins and pay the redemption of sins even though he, himself committed no sin.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, there is scriptural backing for our own individual falls.

Okay - enlighten me.  I would be interested.  However, falling (coming to earth) from the presents of Jehovah is not the same as falling from the presents of Elohim. 

 

The Traveler

 

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Here is a thought for you.  We know that agency was a critical and important element of the war in heaven from which Lucifer was cast out and became Satan.   Agency implies an choice to align with something.  As we chose to become agences of Christ - through that agency; Christ is then tied by covenant to our sins.  This gives him responsibility for our sins even though he did not commit them - which means that he can justly atone for our sins and pay the redemption of sins even though he, himself committed no sin.

 

The Traveler

Another angle- the critical part in the war in heaven was good vs. evil. The good side championed Christ as deliverer from sin thus preserving agency. The bad side was deceptive and tried to scheme how to overthrow God and have wickedness reign instead. The result of that though is loss of agency not the actual overthrow of the kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Okay - enlighten me.  I would be interested.  However, falling (coming to earth) from the presents of Jehovah is not the same as falling from the presents of Elohim. 

 

The Traveler

 

For one thing, we don't fall by coming to earth. "Falling" denotes a spiritual loss. Our Individual fall is based upon our own sins not Adam. As such, we don't fall spiritually because of Adam but rather because of our own sins. 

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
            44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
            45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45)

It isn't scripturally accurate to say all of God's spirit children fell when Adam fell. We have no record that states the spirit children of God are kept away from him because Adam fell. 

[Traveler]

20 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Another angle- the critical part in the war in heaven was good vs. evil. The good side championed Christ as deliverer from sin thus preserving agency. The bad side was deceptive and tried to scheme how to overthrow God and have wickedness reign instead. The result of that though is loss of agency not the actual overthrow of the kingdom.

I have wondered if Lucifer justified himself as opposition to evil or even the possibility of evil.  That in his insistence to eliminate evil through the removal of agency.  In short, if we could not choose evil then evil could not happen.  Then with this excuse he does tempt us because he believes that we choose agency and therefore deserve all the evil that can come to us.   Thus by trying to eliminating evil - he became the ultimate source of evil.

This logic would mean that we must have the possibility of evil to choose good and thus only by choosing good, overcome evil - which seems to me to be an important principle of the plan of salvation.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

For one thing, we don't fall by coming to earth. "Falling" denotes a spiritual loss. Our Individual fall is based upon our own sins not Adam. As such, we don't fall spiritually because of Adam but rather because of our own sins. 

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
            44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
            45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45)

It isn't scripturally accurate to say all of God's spirit children fell when Adam fell. We have no record that states the spirit children of God are kept away from him because Adam fell. 

I believe I interpret this scripture to indicate that we are fallen but that through faith in Christ and repentance we will be "raised" from our fallen state.  That since we are fallen - if we are not raised in Christ we remain damned and in our fallen SPIRITUAL state of our probation.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I believe I interpret this scripture to indicate that we are fallen but that through faith in Christ and repentance we will be "raised" from our fallen state.  That since we are fallen - if we are not raised in Christ we remain damned and in our fallen SPIRITUAL state of our probation.

 

The Traveler

I agree as long as we see that until we fall in mortality we aren't damned. 

[wenglund]

On 1/29/2019 at 3:01 AM, askandanswer said:

2^nd Corinthians 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

 

Is Paul’s statement that he was caught up to a heaven consistent with John’s statement that no man hath ascended to heaven except the Son?

My reading of Jn 3:13 is the opposite from yours. I view the word "even" as meaning "including." In other words, I see the passage as suggesting that we all have or will descend  down from and ascend up to heaven, including the Son of God, or just as the Son of God, rather than only the Son.

After all, this is the very essence Plan of Salvation and Progression.

As for 2 Cor 12:2, it seems to echo what is written in 3 Ne 28:12-18

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.