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mikbone

Seven Archangels (esoteric stuff)

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Seven Archangels - (Revelations 8:2, D&C 88: 94-112) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Seven Dispensations Leaders:  Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, Joseph Smith

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What we do know: 

D&C 128: 21 And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!

Michael = Adam. Noah. I am Gabriel— Well says I. Who are you? I am Peter, the Angel flying through the midst of heaven (Rev. 14:6)   "Discourse, between circa 26 June and circa 4 August 1839–B, as Reported by Willard Richards," p. 75, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 13, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-between-circa-26-june-and-circa-4-august-1839-b-as-reported-by-willard-richards/2

The Priesthood was. first given To Adam: he obtained to the first Presidency & held the Keys of it, from genration to Generation; he obtained it in the creation before the world was formed as in Gen. 1, 26:28,— he had dominion given him over every living Creature. He is Michael, the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures,— Then to Noah who is Gabriel, he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office & was the Father of all living in his day, & To him was Given the Dominion. These men held keys. first on earth, & then in Heaven.   "Discourse, between circa 26 June and circa 4 August 1839–A, as Reported by Willard Richards," p. 63, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 13, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-between-circa-26-june-and-circa-4-august-1839-a-as-reported-by-willard-richards/1

1) Michael is Adam

D&C 107:54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.

2) Gabriel is Noah

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

preparitory to the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ who will come with the voice of the archangel and the sound of Gabrils <trump> bringing all the saints with him           "Letter from John E. Page, 1 September 1841," p. 1, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 13, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-johne-page-1september-1841/1

3) Raphael could be Enoch

Tobias 12:15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord

McConkie links Raphael to Enoch in Mormon Doctrine “We do know the personages, however, who restored the keys exercised in the various great dispensations mentioned in the Bible, with the exception of the dispensation of Enoch.  An inference thus arises that Raphael may be Enoch or some other great prophet from his dispensation. 

At this point the remainder 4 angels and their identities become much less certain.

But if we look at the Eastern Orthodoxy tradition, we see that they have names for the seven archangels - Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Selaphiel, Jegudiel, and Barachiel.     https://orthodoxwiki.org/Archangel

4) Uriel could be Abraham, as Abraham was a native of Ur and an astronomer (Abraham 3:1-17)

Enoch 33:3 And I saw how the stars of Heaven come out, and counted the Gates out of which they come, and wrote down all their outlets, for each one, individually, according to their number. And their names, according to their constellations, their positions, their times, and their months, as the Angel Uriel, who was with me, showed me.

5) Selaphiel or Sealtiel could be Peter

The Conflict of Adam and Eve 31:6 which describes how God sends him and Suriyel to help rescue Adam and Eve from Satan’s deception, commanding Selaphiel “to bring them down from the top of the high mountain and to take them to the Cave of Treasures.”

6) Jegudiel could be Moses

Not much material here but in Hebrew: יהודיאל‎ Yehudiel is interpreted "God of the Jews"

7) Barachiel could be Joseph Smith

This is a very clear Hebrew for barakh ‘el (ברך אל) “blessed [of] El,” i.e., God

And from the D&C prior to the 1981 revision

D&C 103:21 Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Baurak Ale [Joseph Smith, Jr.] is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you.

I wish I had the trump of an Arch An I cod. tell the story in such a manner that pers: shod. cease for ever— J: sd. as the Far. hath power in himself to do even so hath the Son power to do what the Far. did that ansr. is obvious in a manne to lay down his body & take it up— J— did as my Far. laid down his body & take it up agn. if you dont believe it you dont believe the Bible  "Discourse, 7 April 1844, as Reported by Thomas Bullock," p. 16, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 13, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-thomas-bullock/3

you never knew my heart no man knows my hist— I can not do it I shall never undertake— if I had not experienced what I have I should not have known it myself— I never did harm any man since I have been born in the world— my voice is always for peace— I cannot lie down until my work is finished— I never think evil nor think any thing to the harm of my fellow man— & when I am called at the trump & weighed in the balance you will know me then— I add no more God bless you Amen "Discourse, 7 April 1844, as Reported by Thomas Bullock," p. 22, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 13, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-thomas-bullock/9

Edited by mikbone

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9 hours ago, mikbone said:

Seven Dispensations Leaders:  Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, Joseph Smith

How do you reconcile Enoch as a dispensational head following an apostasy with Adam being his contemporary?

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11 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

How do you reconcile Enoch as a dispensational head following an apostasy with Adam being his contemporary?

What do you mean? Adam led the first dispensation, apostasy arose, then Encoh led the second. Makes sense to me.

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31 minutes ago, scottyg said:

What do you mean? Adam led the first dispensation, apostasy arose, then Encoh led the second. Makes sense to me.

Adam was 622 when Enoch was born and had another 308 years to go. You've got 2 dispensational heads operating at the same time. If Enoch is there because of apostasy, we're missing the account of Adam's falling away and returning in time to bless his posterity - including Enoch - in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

How do you reconcile Enoch as a dispensational head following an apostasy with Adam being his contemporary?

Because I know the church doctrine.  I posted the picture in the original post to demonstrate the doctrine.  Everyone had this bookmark in seminary right?

And there are many more dispensations.  A Jaredite dispensation, A Nephite dispensation...

The leaders of the original dispensations are likely the archangels though.

Mormon 3:19 explains how the Nephite disciples who will judge the Nephites, will in turn be judged by the original disciples.  Because Peter’s dispensation has authority over the Nephite dispensation.

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54 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Adam was 622 when Enoch was born and had another 308 years to go. You've got 2 dispensational heads operating at the same time. If Enoch is there because of apostasy, we're missing the account of Adam's falling away and returning in time to bless his posterity - including Enoch - in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman.

You provide an interesting thought mordorbund. Would Enoch actually be the second dispensation or Noah? And would the actual 7th archangel be the prophet who ushers in (probably better said, holds the keys of the priesthood when Christ comes again) the second coming, Millennium.

We know Enoch was over some dispensation, but that doesn't make him a dispensational head (Similar to the Jaredite dispensation).

The point you make as having two dispensational heads living is poignant.

Edited by Anddenex

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11 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Because I know the church doctrine.  I posted the picture in the original post to demonstrate the doctrine.  Everyone had this bookmark in seminary right?

Since you know the church doctrine, please share how it is that Enoch (following an apostasy) is the head of a major dispensation when Adam is still going strong at 687 years old?

13 minutes ago, mikbone said:

And there are many more dispensations.  A Jaredite dispensation, A Nephite dispensation...

Sure, and these are geographically separate from the mainline of the Noachic and Mosaic dispensations. Are you claiming the same for Enoch's dispensation? These are also thought of as "lesser" dispensations - was Enoch promoted?

16 minutes ago, mikbone said:

The leaders of the original dispensations are likely the archangels though.

How is Enoch's dispensation "original" when Adam, Seth, and Enos are still active in their ministries? 

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8 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Since you know the church doctrine, please share how it is that Enoch (following an apostasy) is the head of a major dispensation when Adam is still going strong at 687 years old?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/dispensations?lang=eng

 

There is alot more stuff in the OP to get nit-picky about.

Seriously, didn’t think I would get push back on Enoch having a dispensation.

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5 minutes ago, mikbone said:

There is alot more stuff in the OP to get nit-picky about.

I don't think it's a nit-pick.

Identifying 7 archangels as 7 dispensational heads only works smoothly if there are exactly 7 dispensational heads.

You've already acknowledged that there are other dispensations that are not the "original" dispensations, so you've tacitly made a distinction between dispensations - that some dispensations qualify to be headed by archangels and others are not. So why Enoch? Why Abraham? Why do these qualify as "original" dispensations even though they're contemporaries of Adam, Seth, and Enos on one hand and Shem and Melchizedek on the other? If we're allowing contemporaries, why not Mahonri who saw the Lord? Why not Melchizedek, for whom the priesthood is named? Why not Elijah the great key-holder? Why not John the Baptist? After all, there is none greater born of woman.

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5 hours ago, mordorbund said:

You've already acknowledged that there are other dispensations that are not the "original" dispensations, so you've tacitly made a distinction between dispensations - that some dispensations qualify to be headed by archangels and others are not. So why Enoch? Why Abraham? Why do these qualify as "original" dispensations even though they're contemporaries of Adam, Seth, and Enos on one hand and Shem and Melchizedek on the other?

Much better question.  We don’t know.  But if you are asking me to make an assumption...

It likely has to do with how judgement of mankind will progress and stewardship.

Part of D&C 88 describes how many of the archangel trumps will call forth mankind into their heavenly realms: Celestial, Terrestrial, etc.  This is a judgement.

And as already posted, Mormon 3:19 (See also 1 Ne 12:9-12 & D&C 29:12)  describes the hierarchy of Nephite disciple stewardship and judgement.

Although Enoch only presided over 3 generations here on Earth, he was translated and has stewardship over, most likely, the largest group of mankind.

“And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah 300 years and begat Sons and Daughters, and all the days of Enoch were 365 years, and Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.” Now this Enoch God reserved <un>to himself that he should not die at that time and appointed unto him a ministry unto terrestrial bodies of whom there have been but little revealed. He is reserved also unto the Presidency of a dispensation, and more shall be said of him and terrestrial bodies in another treatise. He is a ministering Angel, to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation (emphasis mine)  "History, 1838–1856, volume C-1 [2 November 1838–31 July 1842] [addenda]," p. 17 [addenda], The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 14, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-2-november-1838-31-july-1842/552

 "Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead" (TPJS, p. 170).  (emphasis mine)   "Instruction on Priesthood, 5 October 1840," p. 7, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed August 14, 2019, https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/instruction-on-priesthood-5-october-1840/13

 

Edited by mikbone

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3 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Adam was 622 when Enoch was born and had another 308 years to go. You've got 2 dispensational heads operating at the same time. If Enoch is there because of apostasy, we're missing the account of Adam's falling away and returning in time to bless his posterity - including Enoch - in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman.

The church states that "A dispensation of the gospel is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the holy priesthood and the keys,..."

I see no reason why Enoch being a patriarch and a "father" of a dispensation has to coincide with the beginning of it. Apostasy doesn't have to begin with the death of a patriarch...the first dispensation could have ended and the second dispensation could have very well began while Adam was still alive. With Noah, apostasy began many years before the flood, but he was still alive. Where is it said that they have to coincide perfectly with the prophet's lifespan? Do you think satan would abide by that? He tempts mankind all the time, and when large groups of people fall away from the teachings of God, they are in a state of apostasy. Who cares if Adam was still alive...why couldn't Enoch be called the father of the second dispensation during his lifetime? People obviously stopped listening to Adam, their father and patriarch, and fell away. A new dispensation arose around the time when Enoch began his ministry. It has nothing to do with both of them being alive at the same time, and one having less authority than another...they were both prophets. The Bible suggests at least one dispensation is identified with Adam, another with Enoch, another with Noah, and so on with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ in the meridian of time. It is possible that Christ himself may not have opened his own dispensation...that was arguably done by John the Baptist in preparing the way for the Messiah. Although the Bible contains some information pertaining to the ancient prophets and patriarchs, we all know it is incomplete and missing thousands of years worth of information.

Regardless, church leaders have repeatedly said that Enoch is, so...end of discussion really.

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My thoughts were that actually the Dispensation heads were

Adam - 1st Dispensation - 1st Thousand Years

Noah - 2nd Dispensation - Second thousand Years

Abraham - 3rd Dispensation - Third Thousand Years

Moses - 4th Dispensation - 4th Thousand years

Jesus Christ - 5th Dispensation - 5th Thousand Years

Joseph Smith - 6th Dispensation - 6th Thousand Years

Jesus Christ - 7th Dispensation - 7th Thousand Years

 

Of course, the thousand years may not align specifically with when the Dispensation was organized.  Of course, it could be different than that as well, but I though it was the LORD, NOT PETER that is the Dispensation head, Peter stands below the Lord.

Each Dispensation Head organizes the church and gives out the Law and the Gospel to each of their respective Dispensations. 

That said, if we do not recognize the 7th dispensation to be the one that is during the Millenium, and that Joseph is the 7th Dispensation head (doesn't align with the Milleniums though) then that would by default mean that Enoch would be the second Dispensation head and the others move on down the respective line.

It may be that at that point, similar to how we View Abraham and Shem, that Shem may have also been the Great High Priest who gave Abraham the Great High Priesthood, that though the gospel obviously was still there and those who held the keys still alive, that so many had fallen away from the Gospel that a restoration had to be done.  Thus as it was in the time of Abraham, so it was also in the time of Enoch.

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On 8/14/2019 at 12:48 PM, scottyg said:

The church states that "A dispensation of the gospel is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the holy priesthood and the keys,..."

I see no reason why Enoch being a patriarch and a "father" of a dispensation has to coincide with the beginning of it. Apostasy doesn't have to begin with the death of a patriarch...the first dispensation could have ended and the second dispensation could have very well began while Adam was still alive. With Noah, apostasy began many years before the flood, but he was still alive. Where is it said that they have to coincide perfectly with the prophet's lifespan? Do you think satan would abide by that? He tempts mankind all the time, and when large groups of people fall away from the teachings of God, they are in a state of apostasy. Who cares if Adam was still alive...why couldn't Enoch be called the father of the second dispensation during his lifetime? People obviously stopped listening to Adam, their father and patriarch, and fell away. A new dispensation arose around the time when Enoch began his ministry. It has nothing to do with both of them being alive at the same time, and one having less authority than another...they were both prophets. The Bible suggests at least one dispensation is identified with Adam, another with Enoch, another with Noah, and so on with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ in the meridian of time. It is possible that Christ himself may not have opened his own dispensation...that was arguably done by John the Baptist in preparing the way for the Messiah. Although the Bible contains some information pertaining to the ancient prophets and patriarchs, we all know it is incomplete and missing thousands of years worth of information.

Regardless, church leaders have repeatedly said that Enoch is, so...end of discussion really.

@mordorbund - doesn't appear to be arguing that Enoch was part of a dispensation (similar to the Jaredites dispensation). What he is pointing out is that in previous cases the "head" of the dispensation had already passed on and was not living when a new "head" of a dispensation was called.

He is inquiring about Adam being still alive (who is the head) while Enoch is living. Can Enoch be a "head" when Adam (the current head) is alive? Thus, it is more likely Noah is the second head dispensation.

mordorbund can correct me if I misunderstood him.

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5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

@mordorbund - doesn't appear to be arguing that Enoch was part of a dispensation (similar to the Jaredites dispensation). What he is pointing out is that in previous cases the "head" of the dispensation had already passed on and was not living when a new "head" of a dispensation was called.

He is inquiring about Adam being still alive (who is the head) while Enoch is living. Can Enoch be a "head" when Adam (the current head) is alive? Thus, it is more likely Noah is the second head dispensation.

mordorbund can correct me if I misunderstood him.

After investigating some of the genealogical information recorded in the scriptures, it appears that after the death of Adam, Enoch spent 57 years on earth as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet prior to being translated and taken to heaven. If one considers the fact that the prophet Joseph Smith had served a mere 14 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet when he died, yet he now serves as the head of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, it seems to me that serving 57 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet is more than enough time for Enoch to be designated the head of a dispensation. Peter is the head of Dispensation of the Meridian of Time, and he spent about 35 years as the presiding high priest, 22 years less than Enoch did. 

The only way mordorbund could be considered correct in his assertion is if Adam outlived Enoch, but he didn’t. Enoch lived in mortality about 57 years beyond the death of Adam. .

Edited by Jersey Boy

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10 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

After investigating some of the genealogical information recorded in the scriptures, it appears that after the death of Adam, Enoch spent 57 years on earth as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet prior to being translated and taken to heaven. If one considers the fact that the prophet Joseph Smith had served a mere 14 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet when he died, yet he now serves as the head of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, it seems to me that serving 57 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet is more than enough time for Enoch to be designated the head of a dispensation. Peter is the head of Dispensation of the Meridian of Time, and he spent about 35 years as the presiding high priest, 22 years less than Enoch did. 

The only way mordorbund could be considered correct in his assertion is if Adam outlived Enoch, but he didn’t. Enoch lived in mortality about 57 years beyond the death of Adam. .

Thanks for the thoughts Jersey Boy. Here are thoughts with your response you would have to consider:

1) Adam is the ancient of days, and is understood to have lived the longest although biblical record shows Methuselah lived 969 years. If Methuselah lived 969 years, and Adam is the ancient of days who lived the longest we can already see the biblical record doesn't provide Adam's accurate age. You are following record of Adam living 930 years and Enoch died in 987. The chances are that Adam lived closer to a 1000 years and lived longer than Methuselah. By this record, let's say that Adam lived 970 and then died. That only allows Enoch 17 years, not 57.

In this case, your thought stems from an inaccurate recording (an error) of translation for your proposal.

2) We agree the number of years is irrelevant, as a person could have lived 1 year as the "head" and still be the head.

3) I am more in agreement with @JohnsonJones that Christ is the head of the Meridian of Time. According to the Church, Jesus Christ is the dispensation head of the Meridian of Time. This account also confirms Enoch as a dispensation head.

I simply am pointing out that @mordorbund makes a valid point regarding two dispensation heads living at the same time, if I understood him correctly with what he was saying.

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My reasoning for why Peter is the leader of the 6th dispensation instead of Jesus Christ...

And you must have noticed that the image I posted in the origin post of this thread lists the Twelve apostles instead of Jesus Christ as the leaders of the 6th dispensation.

I was trying to associate the Seven Archangels with the dispensation leaders. Jesus Christ is God (He is supremely advanced beyond an archangel).

Also in the temple narrative we see Peter acting an archangel.

Joseph Smith lists Enoch as a dispensation leader and McConkie even associates him with Raphael.

 

The real reason I made this post was to see if others associated Joseph Smith as an Archangel.  

I sometimes see Latter-Day Saints dismissing some of Joseph Smith’s teachings, or not even bothering to read his teachings.  And this gives me concern.

 

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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Thanks for the thoughts Jersey Boy. Here are thoughts with your response you would have to consider:

1) Adam is the ancient of days, and is understood to have lived the longest although biblical record shows Methuselah lived 969 years. If Methuselah lived 969 years, and Adam is the ancient of days who lived the longest we can already see the biblical record doesn't provide Adam's accurate age. You are following record of Adam living 930 years and Enoch died in 987. The chances are that Adam lived closer to a 1000 years and lived longer than Methuselah. By this record, let's say that Adam lived 970 and then died. That only allows Enoch 17 years, not 57.

In this case, your thought stems from an inaccurate recording (an error) of translation for your proposal.

2) We agree the number of years is irrelevant, as a person could have lived 1 year as the "head" and still be the head.

3) I am more in agreement with @JohnsonJones that Christ is the head of the Meridian of Time. According to the Church, Jesus Christ is the dispensation head of the Meridian of Time. This account also confirms Enoch as a dispensation head.

I simply am pointing out that @mordorbund makes a valid point regarding two dispensation heads living at the same time, if I understood him correctly with what he was saying.

I have always believed Christ is the head of the Meridian Dispensation. Why I got sidetracked tonight into suggesting that Peter is its head of that Dispensation is beyond me. Perhaps it’s because I usually think of Archangels as being the heads of the dispensations, not God.

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On 8/14/2019 at 12:44 PM, mordorbund said:

I don't think it's a nit-pick.

Identifying 7 archangels as 7 dispensational heads only works smoothly if there are exactly 7 dispensational heads.

You've already acknowledged that there are other dispensations that are not the "original" dispensations, so you've tacitly made a distinction between dispensations - that some dispensations qualify to be headed by archangels and others are not. So why Enoch? Why Abraham? Why do these qualify as "original" dispensations even though they're contemporaries of Adam, Seth, and Enos on one hand and Shem and Melchizedek on the other? If we're allowing contemporaries, why not Mahonri who saw the Lord? Why not Melchizedek, for whom the priesthood is named? Why not Elijah the great key-holder? Why not John the Baptist? After all, there is none greater born of woman.

Again, just to clarify my position: I agree that Enoch had a dispensation, and would even say that Enoch was the head of a dispensation (though probably not for the reasons others assume). I would say the same of a whole slew of prophets mentioned in the Bible Dictionary* entry. What I've tried to do by calling out Enoch is highlight assumptions that are getting made based on unstated rules.

 - There are 7 dispensations each with a prophet associated with it.

Well, no, not really. The Bible Dictionary lists 7 dispensations, but then goes on to list 3 others, then says maybe 2 more, and finally suggests 9 other candidates.

- There are 7 major (or original, to use @mikbone's terminology) dispensations, each with a prophet associated with it.

Okay. So what are the rules that separate these 7 from the other dozen or so? @scottyg uses the following model:

On 8/14/2019 at 2:48 PM, scottyg said:

when large groups of people fall away from the teachings of God, they are in a state of apostasy. Who cares if Adam was still alive...why couldn't Enoch be called the father of the second dispensation during his lifetime? People obviously stopped listening to Adam, their father and patriarch, and fell away.

Under this model, we should be looking for hundreds of major dispensational heads because large groups of people fall away throughout the history of the gospel. I'm sure the reader can come up with several examples under Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, Alma, Nephi (son of Nephi), Joseph Smith, and Heber J. Grant.

@mikbone offered his own reason for why these 7:

On 8/14/2019 at 1:08 PM, mikbone said:

We don’t know.

which means we're relying on a traditional list and we should track down the source of this list to see if it belongs in restored doctrine. Mikbone then opined a model that depends on stewardship hierarchies and possibly the size of that stewardship:

On 8/14/2019 at 1:08 PM, mikbone said:

Part of D&C 88 describes how many of the archangel trumps will call forth mankind into their heavenly realms: Celestial, Terrestrial, etc.  This is a judgement.

And as already posted, Mormon 3:19 (See also 1 Ne 12:9-12 & D&C 29:12)  describes the hierarchy of Nephite disciple stewardship and judgement.

Although Enoch only presided over 3 generations here on Earth, he was translated and has stewardship over, most likely, the largest group of mankind.

The hierarchy seems to fall flat. Enoch, presumably falls under Adam's stewardship as the Nephite disciples fall under Christ's apostles. If the Nephite disciples don't get a major dispensation then neither does Enoch. For that matter, Abraham seems to fall under Melchizedek (and extra-scriptural sources have him going to Shem to learn the gospel) so his dispensation should perhaps be given to another - the challenge of course being that anyone in that period with authority ultimately falls under Noah's stewardship). The stewardship size argument will need to get fleshed out a bit more for me before I consider it further. It is a new one to me.

@Jersey Boy's model ties it to duration.

15 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

After investigating some of the genealogical information recorded in the scriptures, it appears that after the death of Adam, Enoch spent 57 years on earth as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet prior to being translated and taken to heaven. If one considers the fact that the prophet Joseph Smith had served a mere 14 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet when he died, yet he now serves as the head of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, it seems to me that serving 57 years as the Lord’s presiding high priest and prophet is more than enough time for Enoch to be designated the head of a dispensation. Peter is the head of Dispensation of the Meridian of Time, and he spent about 35 years as the presiding high priest, 22 years less than Enoch did. 

The problem with this is that D&C 107 has Seth taking over priesthood ordinations, not Adam (Methuselah had to ordain Noah because Seth was dead and Enoch translated). This means Enoch, if he replaced Seth instead of Enos, presided for only 10 years. Additionally, since Brigham Young presided over the Church for nearly 3 decades, we should perhaps make him the major dispensational head over Joseph Smith.

One model I usually hear that hasn't been brought up here is that the major dispensations are the ones where the gospel cannot be had elsewhere due to apostasy, so it was revealed anew. Obviously with Adam and Noah (after the flood) this holds up, as well as Moses and Joseph Smith. Jesus and the apostles is a special case because they were born under the Mosaic Law, but the fulness was revealed anew through them. As noted above, Enoch and Abraham are problematic since they should fall under other dispensational heads. Perhaps they should be replaced by the 2 Nephi's since Lehi's son restored the fulness that the Mosaic Law alone lacked, and Nephi's son transitioned them to the New Covenant under Christ.

@JohnsonJones also sees the OP list as incorrect and ties the 7 major dispensations to John the Divine's 7 seals:

On 8/19/2019 at 10:09 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Adam - 1st Dispensation - 1st Thousand Years

Noah - 2nd Dispensation - Second thousand Years

Abraham - 3rd Dispensation - Third Thousand Years

Moses - 4th Dispensation - 4th Thousand years

Jesus Christ - 5th Dispensation - 5th Thousand Years

Joseph Smith - 6th Dispensation - 6th Thousand Years

Jesus Christ - 7th Dispensation - 7th Thousand Years

This bypasses the Enoch problem by not including Enoch at all. So far, this is the only model I've seen on this thread that supports the OP's (and the Bible Dictionary's) assumption that

- There are 7 major dispensations, each with a prophet associated with it.

And I'll give an honorable mention to Mikbones' stewardship size model until it is fleshed out more.

 

*Fun fact, the Bible Dictionary includes the following disclaimer: "A variety of doctrinal, cultural, and historical subjects are treated... This dictionary is provided to help your study of the scriptures and is not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine or an endorsement of the historical and cultural views set forth."

Edited by mordorbund

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8 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

What does it mean to be an archangel in LDS theology?

What angels are expressly referred to as archangels?

In the LDS scriptures only Michael is labeled as the Archangel.  And Joseph Smith names him as the Chief Angel.  D&C 29:26, 88:112, 107:54, & 128:21. 

But these Seven that stand before God and who in turn will blow the 7 trumps during the second coming appear to have special callings.   I like them for the dispensation leaders.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Okay. So what are the rules that separate these 7 from the other dozen or so? @scottyg uses the following model:

On 8/14/2019 at 12:48 PM, scottyg said:

when large groups of people fall away from the teachings of God, they are in a state of apostasy. Who cares if Adam was still alive...why couldn't Enoch be called the father of the second dispensation during his lifetime? People obviously stopped listening to Adam, their father and patriarch, and fell away.

Under this model, we should be looking for hundreds of major dispensational heads because large groups of people fall away throughout the history of the gospel. I'm sure the reader can come up with several examples under Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, Alma, Nephi (son of Nephi), Joseph Smith, and Heber J. Grant.

My definition of a dispensation and apostasy comes straight from the church...both their website and printed materials such as institute manuals and Preach my Gospel. Can there be smaller instances of apostasy all the time...sure, but there are also larger/more widespread ones. There are 7 major dispensations associated with the opening of the seven seals in the book of revelation. Church leaders have also taught multiple times that the 7 heads of those dispensations are Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, and Joseph Smith. End of story really.

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19 hours ago, scottyg said:

There are 7 major dispensations associated with the opening of the seven seals in the book of revelation. Church leaders have also taught multiple times that the 7 heads of those dispensations are Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, and Joseph Smith. End of story really.

If Church leaders are teaching that those are the 7 heads of the dispensations, then they are not lining them up with the 7 seals in the book of Revelation.

  • 4K-3K BC: Adam
  • 3K-2K BC: Enoch?
  • 2K-1K BC: Noah?
  • 1K-0 BC:   Abraham?
  • 0-1K AD:   Moses?
  • 1K-2K AD: Jesus Christ?
  • 2K-3K AD (Millennial): Joseph Smith

End of story??

The Institute Manual follows Elder McConkie's commentary to identify the horsemen and associated people:

  • 4K-3K BC: Enoch
  • 3K-2K BC: Lucifer
  • 2K-1K BC: ??
  • 1K-0 BC:   Isaiah, Jeremaiah, Amos, et al
  • 0-1K AD:   Christian martyrs (including the apostles)
  • 1K-2K AD: ??
  • 2K-3K AD (Millennial): Jesus Christ?

End of story?

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33 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

If Church leaders are teaching that those are the 7 heads of the dispensations, then they are not lining them up with the 7 seals in the book of Revelation.

  • 4K-3K BC: Adam
  • 3K-2K BC: Enoch?
  • 2K-1K BC: Noah?
  • 1K-0 BC:   Abraham?
  • 0-1K AD:   Moses?
  • 1K-2K AD: Jesus Christ?
  • 2K-3K AD (Millennial): Joseph Smith

End of story??

The Institute Manual follows Elder McConkie's commentary to identify the horsemen and associated people:

  • 4K-3K BC: Enoch
  • 3K-2K BC: Lucifer
  • 2K-1K BC: ??
  • 1K-0 BC:   Isaiah, Jeremaiah, Amos, et al
  • 0-1K AD:   Christian martyrs (including the apostles)
  • 1K-2K AD: ??
  • 2K-3K AD (Millennial): Jesus Christ?

End of story?

The Church has an interesting take on the Dispensation scheme these days, one that has been shared occasionally with it in times past, and one that has NOT been shared by some in times past.

The current rendition seems to be sharing one with the Protestants...

This idea of Dispensations as some are talking about it here is independent of the thousand years and their seals.  This idea of Dispensations I believe (this is off the top of my head here) is a little less than a thousand years old.  The traditional Dispensations cover 8 periods or Dispensations.  Of these, the traditional leaders could be seen as Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Lord, and the Lord again, with the 8th Dispensation falling into disrepute and evil to lead to the Destruction of the World. 

The Church has a very similar take and understanding in it's idea of Dispensations, but in this way it doesn't really HAVE the standard Dispensation heads or the strict Dispensation heads that the Catholic and Protestant outlook does.  In this, instead, it has it so that there is not actually just 7 Dispensations, nor 7 Dispensation heads.  It actually has several more including a Nephite and Jaredite Dispensation, which would as of matter of fact mean that there are MORE than 7 Dispensation heads in truth, and they do not have any relation to the Seals, the Thousand years, or any relation at all.

In reference to the Original Post, there has been a slightly different understanding given from Joseph Smith at times, though it's been interpreted in various and different ways.  This interpretation correlates the Seals, the Dispensations, and the Trumpets STRONGLY with each 1000 years of the Earth.  In this there would still be 8 different separations, but they each would be a Dispensation in and of themselves up to the end of the Millenium.  In this, one would have a leader of a Dispensation strongly associated with each Seal, or at least an individual associated with each seal.  This also means that you have four thousand years (with four leaders or men or angels or what you want to call them) PRIOR to the Coming of our Lord and the median of time...and four thousand years AFTER this...or four periods prior and four periods after.

This is strongly rooted in D&C 77 though MUCH OF it is derived otherwise and has other sources.

In this, you have each Seal contains the things of each thousand years.  There is one Seal for each of the Seven Thousand year periods and the angels of each bearing Trumpets also are related to these, with the Trumpets in Revelation 8 being the announcement of the opening of the Seventh Seal and the beginning of the Seventh Thousand years.

Thus, if we relate the Seven Trumpets and try to correlate them as Dispensation heads, we would need to say that they would be Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Joseph Smith, and finally the Lord again.  One could take the Catholic slant that they are the true church and say it should be Peter or St. Peter instead of the Lord, but I'm a Latter-Day Saint...so I'll stick with the Messiah on this one.  I'd say that he could also be the head of the Dispensation...though one could also ask how we get Seven from six beings...as we would be counting him Twice.

Which brings up the difficulty one has again...in regards to Seven individuals if we have the Lord as being One of them. 

Thus, the church seems to default back to the easy way out of it, where instead of a Thousand Year division, we go with simple Periods...and Enoch is also one.

The difference though, between Enoch and the others is that Enoch is not DEAD...while the others all died during their relative and respective Dispensations.

It is interesting how different teachers and educators teach in the Church.  When I first learned about the Church's take on Dispensations, Enoch was not counted as a Dispensation head.  It was, as I said above, being Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.  The Seventh Seal and Seventh Thousand years having not occurred yet, it was assumed that the Lord would be the head of that Dispensation and the restoration of ALL the keys (as he holds ALL the keys, including those we do not have on Earth Currently) on earth during that period called the Millenium.  However, as it had not occurred, it was considered that we were still in the Sixth Thousand Years and the Sixth Dispensation. 

Obviously, this was inaccurate as per what is on the Church's site today.  What it DOES tell me is that this is a current interpretation of LDS bible Scholars today...not necessarily something that is based on specific revelation (perhaps?  it could be but I"d need to see the source...I may have just not realized what it said or it didn't strike me at the time), and just like anything that we do the best we can to interpret, it is open to change when we get better or new information...or simply opinions on the subject change.

I'm open to seeing it either way, with no really strong feelings one way or the other.  If it is Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Lord, and Joseph Smith...fine with me.  If it is the way it was taught to me originally, fine with me.

I could see reasons for either way with no real strong slant one way or the other.

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2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

If Church leaders are teaching that those are the 7 heads of the dispensations, then they are not lining them up with the 7 seals in the book of Revelation.

  • 4K-3K BC: Adam
  • 3K-2K BC: Enoch?
  • 2K-1K BC: Noah?
  • 1K-0 BC:   Abraham?
  • 0-1K AD:   Moses?
  • 1K-2K AD: Jesus Christ?
  • 2K-3K AD (Millennial): Joseph Smith

End of story??

The Institute Manual follows Elder McConkie's commentary to identify the horsemen and associated people:

  • 4K-3K BC: Enoch
  • 3K-2K BC: Lucifer
  • 2K-1K BC: ??
  • 1K-0 BC:   Isaiah, Jeremaiah, Amos, et al
  • 0-1K AD:   Christian martyrs (including the apostles)
  • 1K-2K AD: ??
  • 2K-3K AD (Millennial): Jesus Christ?

End of story?

Look, regardless of the timeline of the seals, and whether or not they line up with the major dispensations, I reaffirm that church leaders have taught that the 7 heads of the 7 major dispensations are Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, and Joseph Smith. So yes, end of story.

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