Saving Starfish - Variant

[Carborendum]

You may be familiar with the story about the seashore covered in starfish.  But I have a question about a variant.

Standard story:

Because of unusual ocean activity, countless starfish have been stranded on the shore.  The waters have receded.  And their limitations prevent them from finding the water again.

The storyteller notices a woman picking up a starfish and throwing it into the ocean.  She walks a little farther and picks up another, throwing it in the ocean.  After several cycles of this, the storyteller asks the woman, "Why do you even bother doing this when there are so many?  How can you hope to make a difference?"

The woman replies by picking up another starfish and returning it to its ocean home and says,"It made a difference to that starfish."

Variant:

The storyteller then decides to help.  He goes up to a starfish with the intention of helping more starfish.  As he goes to pick one up, the woman grabs it first and throws it in the ocean.  This repeats a couple of times before the storyteller decides that he needs to cover a different area because he didn't want to get in the woman's way.

In a different area, he goes to pick up a starfish.  It gets picked up by a sudden ocean wave.  The starfish is gone.  He thinks to himself, "OK.  I guess that works."

He goes to pick another area unaffected by the sudden wave.  A bird picks it up and realizing it is not its normal diet, drops it into the sea.  "Well, you don't see that every day."

He continues and finds that each time he does so, some unpredictable event prevents him from picking it up, yet the starfish is still saved.

Then he does an experiment.  He walks away from the sea.  He watches the starfish.  Each and every one of them gets taken out to the sea by some highly unusual way.

Was the woman at the beginning making a difference?

2nd Variant:

As he watches from a distance he sees no more miraculous saves.  So, he goes back to work trying to save the starfish.  As he does so, more miraculous saves prevent him from actually being effective.  But when he goes to sit on the sidelines again, the miracles cease yet again.

This continues for several cycles.  Would it be fair to say that even when he, himself, does nothing to save the starfish directly, that by simply trying (and absolutely not succeeding) he is still making a difference?

Edited June 23, 2023 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

I'm reading your two new variants on the analogy, but I've lost the connection between your variants and reality.  I get how the original story works in reality.  Our mortal experience contains many problems/challenges/issues that are simply unfixable, and leave victims all over the place.  You can't help/save everybody, but individuals have individual worth.  If all you can do is help one individual at a time, even though hundreds or thousands go un-helped, it's still a worthy effort, because the worth of the individual is great in the eyes of God.  

So how do your variants fit reality?  What's the analogous situation to only the woman can find starfish to save, but wherever you go they all get saved without any effort?  And I don't get the 2nd variant at all.

[Carborendum]

23 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So how do your variants fit reality?  What's the analogous situation to only the woman can find starfish to save, but wherever you go they all get saved without any effort?  And I don't get the 2nd variant at all.

Have you ever tried to help someone who really needs help but either they refuse the help or someone else helps them instead?  How often has such a thing happened to you?  It seems to happen a whole lot to me.  I get to be there to watch something unfold.  I try, but I'm not really contributing anything.

If I simply "give up" and don't do anything, I realize that nothing is happening -- the person is still suffering.  So, I get back into the game and try to help someone.  Then I find that the problem was already solved or is being solved.  "Hey, can I lend a hand?"  -- "No, we've got it.  Thanks anyway."

Other times, I'm asked to help.  I go and help.  But then we find that even though we did a whole bunch of stuff, nothing really changed.

I sometimes feel like whether I'm a spectator or a participant, I'm not doing anything that has any real effect.  I may as well sit around twiddling my thumbs for all the good it does.

At the same time, I've seen things get worse if I don't do something.  And when I realize this, I try to help.  But by the time I get there, it is already taken care of -- sometimes by other people, sometimes miraculously, sometimes it just resolved itself with no special effort.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Carborendum

[Backroads]

I tried to make this is a physics analogy despite being a kindergarten teacher with no real knowledge of physics beyond the odd YouTube video.

[Carborendum]

6 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I tried to make this is a physics analogy despite being a kindergarten teacher with no real knowledge of physics beyond the odd YouTube video.

Student: Hey do you have a book on Schrodinger's Cat and Pavlov's Dogs?
Librarian: I'm not sure if it is checked out or not, but it does ring a bell.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Have you ever ...

If I noticed this pattern in my life, I think I would be inclined to take away the following lessons:

• I have bad timing.  Perhaps with practice I'll improve.
• I don't recognize the need soon enough, or I take too long to figure out what I should do, or I take too long to act.  Perhaps with practice I'll improve.
• God wants me to see the variety of ways by which He blesses people.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I sometimes feel like whether I'm a spectator or a participant, I'm not doing anything that has any real effect.

Perhaps you are missing the effect on you:

Quote

Matthew 5:43-45

...do good things to bad people so... That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

(In other words, sometimes the service you offer is as much to change you as it is to bless the one(s) you're serving.)

Or,

Quote

Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

So, rather than lamenting that you never manage to be the one saving the starfish, look for other lessons and for ways to improve.  Also, celebrate the goodness of others - pray in gratitude for their abilities and actions, ask for them to be blessed, thank them for their service and example to you - lift them so that they don't get tired of tossing starfish.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, zil2 said:

(In other words, sometimes the service you offer is as much to change you as it is to bless the one(s) you're serving.)

This is undoubtedly true, but at some point, working merely because you're supposed to work or because you think it might have some unintended positive consequences results in a cynical attitude. Missionaries are often changed for the better by their missionary service, and many have suggested that the real, underlying primary motivation for God to call young men on missions is for the benefit of the young men. But any missionary whose service revolves around the idea that he's doing himself a big favor will, ironically, never gain the full benefit of his missionary service, because his heart is not pure. We do missionary service because we wish to bring people to Christ. So the somewhat meta reasoning, while perhaps sound, often leaves me cold.

[zil2]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

This is undoubtedly true, but at some point, working merely because you're supposed to work or because you think it might have some unintended positive consequences results in a cynical attitude. Missionaries are often changed for the better by their missionary service, and many have suggested that the real, underlying primary motivation for God to call young men on missions is for the benefit of the young men. But any missionary whose service revolves around the idea that he's doing himself a big favor will, ironically, never gain the full benefit of his missionary service, because his heart is not pure. We do missionary service because we wish to bring people to Christ. So the somewhat meta reasoning, while perhaps sound, often leaves me cold.

I agree.  I was suggesting it as an after-the-fact analysis of the pattern - perhaps despite the seeming failures, there was something good happening after all...?

[Carborendum]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:44 PM, zil2 said:

Perhaps you are missing the effect on you:

I've mulled this over.  It has gone back and forth through several iterations of no, yes, but no, but actually yes, no not really...

I won't bother confusing you with each back and forth argument I made about this.  Bottom line is that, yes one could see elements of this "informing" me of some things. But it is certainly an imperfect conclusion to believe that is what is happening.

[mordorbund]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:12 PM, Carborendum said:

The storyteller then decides to help.  He goes up to a starfish with the intention of helping more starfish.  As he goes to pick one up, the woman grabs it first and throws it in the ocean.  This repeats a couple of times before the storyteller decides that he needs to cover a different area because he didn't want to get in the woman's way.

I think the lesson for the storyteller here folds right into the next part of the story. From a utilitarian perspective he should find a niche that is unfilled. He can move on to a different area, or he can try working parallel to the original starfisher, or perhaps try talking to the starfisher for direction.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:12 PM, Carborendum said:

Then he does an experiment.  He walks away from the sea.  He watches the starfish.  Each and every one of them gets taken out to the sea by some highly unusual way.

Was the woman at the beginning making a difference?

No, I guess she really wasn't making a difference. But if she's commanded to throw starfish in the sea then she better do it.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:12 PM, Carborendum said:

2nd Variant:

As he watches from a distance he sees no more miraculous saves.  So, he goes back to work trying to save the starfish.  As he does so, more miraculous saves prevent him from actually being effective.  But when he goes to sit on the sidelines again, the miracles cease yet again.

This continues for several cycles.  Would it be fair to say that even when he, himself, does nothing to save the starfish directly, that by simply trying (and absolutely not succeeding) he is still making a difference?

Yes. I would also argue that he is succeeding with his primary goal of making a difference, even if he isn't the one getting the credit and it isn't playing out according to his plan. He did a test and saw that there is a measurable difference between when he tries and when he doesn't. Just because he doesn't know the causal mechanism doesn't mean it's not actually there and effective. The closest corollary I've found in my life is the value of "just being there". There is little foreseeable utility to it and yet it is tremendously needed.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Yes. I would also argue that he is succeeding with his primary goal of making a difference, even if he isn't the one getting the credit and it isn't playing out according to his plan. He did a test and saw that there is a measurable difference between when he tries and when he doesn't. Just because he doesn't know the causal mechanism doesn't mean it's not actually there and effective. The closest corollary I've found in my life is the value of "just being there". There is little foreseeable utility to it and yet it is tremendously needed.

When I consider how my light is spent,
   Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
   And that one Talent which is death to hide
   Lodged with me useless, though my Soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
   My true account, lest he returning chide;
   “Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?”
   I fondly ask. But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, “God doth not need
   Either man’s work or his own gifts; who best
   Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is Kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed
   And post o’er Land and Ocean without rest:
   They also serve who only stand and wait.”

That we do not see the good actively brought about by those "who only stand and wait" doesn't mean the good is nonexistent. I'm convinced it's just as real as the good brought about by active and heroic deeds.

[NeuroTypical]

11 hours ago, mordorbund said:

The closest corollary I've found in my life is the value of "just being there". There is little foreseeable utility to it and yet it is tremendously needed.

10 hours ago, Vort said:

When I consider how my light is spent,...

For about a decade, I've called this phenomenon "standing there with a dumb look on my face".   

I lost count years ago of the good I'm able to do, just by performing that action.  Often it's a way of supporting people going through struggles who just wanted to have someone supportive nearby.  Also a lot of doing that as a parent these years, as kiddos move into adulthood by trying things for the first time like making a doc appointment or doing their own grocery shopping.  They want me there, but they do NOT want me involved or participating in any way.   Finally, the times when it's dark and closing time, and various women are leaving wherever they are, and getting into their cars to drive home.  That's when I'm at my absolute best.  100% of what my fellow humans want from me, is to just stand there with a dumb look on my face. 

 

So, because @Vort's poem had too many big words in it, I asked ChatGPT to rewrite it using simple words from an inner city mentally challenged teenager: 
 

Quote

When I think 'bout how I've spent my days,
Half gone in this world's dark maze,
Got one talent, but it's useless, no gain,
Can't hide from death, it's a permanent stain.

I wanna serve my Maker, show my worth,
Give Him my truth, so He won't chide me on this earth,
"Does God need my hustle, when I'm denied light?"
I ask in my heart, with hope shining bright.

But patience speaks up, shuts down my doubt,
"God don't need our grind or gifts, or clout.
Those who bear His weight, they serve Him best,
His kingdom's royal, outshining the rest.

Thousands obey His call, moving swift,
Crossing lands and oceans in a passionate drift,
But even those who do nuthin' but wait,
They serve too, in their own restin' state."

 

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, because @Vort's quotation of Milton's poem

FTFY.

[NeuroTypical]

Too many words.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

For about a decade, I've called this phenomenon "standing there with a dumb look on my face".   

Yeah, this is how I felt in a particular ward where my calling was to "be a warm body."  Specifically, I was the second adult in the room to satisfy the "2-deep leadership" requirement.

At least, I understood that simply "being there" had a clear purpose.  And I suppose "being there" for emotional support is a good thing as well.

The problem I have is how there are too many situations where I feel like

1.  I'm standing there with a dumb look on my face and I cannot fathom any purpose for which I'm needed.  OR

2. I'm actively trying to do something that will make some measurable difference, but all my efforts are in vain.  All my hard work bears no fruit.

BTW, it has nothing to do with me "getting credit" for anything.  It is simply that I'm supposed to spend my strength in the Lord's service.  But it feels like I'm spending my strength to spin my wheels.  I don't think that's what the Lord wants me to be doing.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

BTW, it has nothing to do with me "getting credit" for anything.  It is simply that I'm supposed to spend my strength in the Lord's service.  But it feels like I'm spending my strength to spin my wheels.  I don't think that's what the Lord wants me to be doing.

Implementing a new system involves adoption, accommodation, and optimization. If you're the guy getting the new system going, you will go down a lot of blind alleys and suboptimal avenues while figuring out how best to get things accomplished. Once things are up and running well, people may look back on the breaking-in period and lament how inefficient it all was. But you can never get to the well-optimized state without going through the pain of actually getting the new system running.

In the kingdom of God, as in life, we are constantly trying to implement new systems and adopt new attitudes and actions. Sometimes this is because those new things are improvements, a line-upon-line advancement of the Church as a whole and of ourselves specifically; other times, it's just a new way of doing things because management has changed or ephemeral public tastes have shifted yet again. Often we get to tread the beaten path and do things efficiently. Then there are the times when we're the Guinea pigs, the IT guys struggling to replace the tried-and-true Cat5 with a wireless system. Many of these attempts bear fruit; some, e.g. 18-month missions for young men, are abandoned after they prove less than expected. But the trial needs to be run. The wheels need to be spun so our leaders can figure out that the method doesn't work right. Sometimes, that's our calling.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I was the second adult in the room to satisfy the "2-deep leadership" requirement.

Oh yes!  I've been in that position many times for many bishops, meeting in an otherwise empty ward building with individual youth or sisters.  Actually, I think that's where I came up with the phrase.   My first bishop I ever executive-secretary'd for was something of a spiritual powerhouse, with a regular flow of repentant sinners taking up his last appointment, which often went long into the evening.  I remember many, many times when I'd be there reading my book in the clerk's office at 7, 8 pm, even later, when I'd finally hear the bishop's door open.  Final teary words of gratitude, and the person would walk away from us and towards the exit, and the bishop would walk towards me, sometimes leaning a bit, with a big smile on his face and say something like "Well Bro NT, we changed a heart tonight."  He'd always thank me profusely for making it possible for him to do such important things.  

Yep, that's where I got the phrase.   The atonement was working miracles less than 10 feet and one wall away from me, and I was helping.  Just by standing there with a dumb look on my face.

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep, that's where I got the phrase.   The atonement was working miracles less than 10 feet and one wall away from me, and I was helping.  Just by standing there with a dumb look on my face.

Oh, how I wish.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

 The atonement was working miracles less than 10 feet and one wall away from me, and I was helping.  Just by standing there with a dumb look on my face.

Was the dumb look mandatory or optional?

I really wish I could opt out of the dumb looks or (even moreso) the dumb statements.

[NeuroTypical]

Well, full transparency, several friendly people across decades have let me know that my resting face just comes across like someone who forgot to take his brain cell to work that day.   I ain't gonna defend it, I also ain't gonna deny it.  Might as well turn it into a feature.

[Carborendum]

On 6/26/2023 at 12:24 PM, Vort said:

Implementing a new system involves adoption, accommodation, and optimization. If you're the guy getting the new system going, you will go down a lot of blind alleys and suboptimal avenues while figuring out how best to get things accomplished. Once things are up and running well, people may look back on the breaking-in period and lament how inefficient it all was. But you can never get to the well-optimized state without going through the pain of actually getting the new system running.

The problem here is that it isn't about developing the methods and the systems.  We're talking about kindergarten level stuff here.  Truly, the simply act of picking up a starfish and throwing it in the ocean needs no "system".  And I don't see much in the way of any "optimization" that could make a perceivable difference.

No, it is simply that when I reach for the starfish (as a good summary of all the different things I've experienced) it simply disappears.  Everything I'm trying to do is jock-blocked.  It isn't that I'm doing it wrong.  It's taken from me.  Or, as a sports analogy, I make a perfect 3-point shot -- nothing but net.  But a guard moves with lightning speed from the corner of the court and blocks the shot.

I did everything right.  But something comes out of the corner and blocks me.

EXAMPLE: A young man in the ward was asking for help in learning how to tie a tie.  I happened to be 2 ft from him.  So, I began explaining it.  And as I did so, another brother about 15ft away saw I was showing him how to tie a tie.  He came walking over and took the tie out of my hands and began explaining it to him.

Now, for just a minute, forget about how rude that guy was for doing so.  But this kind of thing happens all the time to me by random acts and coincidences, twists in timing, everything you can imagine that would keep a shot from landing, it happens.

I get Mordor's post saying "If the Lord tells you to so it, then you do it" regardless of what any perceivable results (or lack thereof) are.  But it doesn't seem like this is what is happening.  Not with the quantity of experiences I've had of this happening.