Book of Mormon Reading Group: 09 Oct - 15 Oct 2023 (Words of Mormon 1 - Mosiah 13)

[Jamie123]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I would reckon that it was some kid who thought he knew more about the scriptures than he actually did.  Or it's been a while and you are confusing some things from various lessons with various missionaries.

Maybe - but I seem to recall hearing this from several sets of missionaries, and them making a big deal out of it (like it was something I should specially meditate on). It is very very strange...

[pam]

This is what I found in the Book of Mormon about seed.  It doesn't mention mustard seed but it does mention a seed and a tree springing up.

If we give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed…behold, it will be to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within your yourselves–It must needs be that this is a good seed.  Alma 32:27

If we nurture that seed patiently and diligently, Alma says, eventually “it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life” (Alma 32:41).

Alma later explained to his son Helaman, “By small and simple things are great things brought to pass” (Alma 37:6).

[Carborendum]

3 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Maybe - but I seem to recall hearing this from several sets of missionaries, and them making a big deal out of it (like it was something I should specially meditate on). It is very very strange...

Do you remember what you were supposed to meditate on?

[Jamie123]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Do you remember what you were supposed to meditate on?

I think the overall point was that little things lead to big things, and it doesn't take much to get you started.

[Carborendum]

Just now, Jamie123 said:

I think the overall point was that little things lead to big things, and it doesn't take much to get you started.

The closest thing is what Pam quoted.  Alma 32 is the sermon on faith.  It starts as a little seed.  And if you don't do anything with it, then it won't grow.  But if you nurture it, then it will grow.  It takes time.

At this point, you may have mixed this up with Jesus' sermon about faith like a mustard seed.

[Jamie123]

5 minutes ago, pam said:

This is what I found in the Book of Mormon about seed.  It doesn't mention mustard seed but it does mention a seed and a tree springing up.

If we give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed…behold, it will be to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within your yourselves–It must needs be that this is a good seed.  Alma 32:27

If we nurture that seed patiently and diligently, Alma says, eventually “it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life” (Alma 32:41).

Alma later explained to his son Helaman, “By small and simple things are great things brought to pass” (Alma 37:6).

Thanks Pam - I think this may be what I was thinking of. (I could have sworn it was a mustard seed though.)

[Jamie123]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

At this point, you may have mixed this up with Jesus' sermon about faith like a mustard seed.

I was familiar with Jesus' story of the mustard seed before I ever heard of the Book of Mormon and I initially thought this was what the missionaries were talking about. Maybe they just said "seed" and I subconsciously inserted the "mustard" myself. Thanks - and sorry to get flustered over this.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Jamie123

[askandanswer]

Why is this only happening now? Were they so dependent on the king that they didn't previously have priests to teach them?

Mosiah 6

King Benjamin records the names of the people and appoints priests to teach them

 

500 years later, the same thing was still happening, and is still happening today

From Moroni 6

they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ,

Mosiah 6:1

Book of Mormon, that he should take the names of all those who had entered into a covenant with God to keep his commandments.

This is a little imprecise. Was there a specific age?

Mosiah 6:2

2 And it came to pass that there was not one soul, except it were little children, 

 

 

Are these two seperate roles?

Mosiah 6:3

3  and had consecrated his son Mosiah to be a ruler and a king 

 

 

This is definitely a religious function so it appears that King Benjamin exercised civil and political functions, perhaps in a similar way as the Jewish kings and Brigham Young did in early Utah.

Mosiah 6:3

3  a ruler and a king over his people, and had given him all the charges concerning the kingdom, and also had appointed priests to teach the people,

 

The same age as Christ when He took on His important role.

Mosiah 6:4

4 And Mosiah began to reign in his father’s stead. And he began to reign in the thirtieth year of his age,

 

More than enough time for an adequate hand-over and some good mentoring by the old king of the new king.

Mosiah 6:5

5 And king Benjamin lived three years and he died.

It seems like fulfilling the religious and civil/political and probably legal functions of a king was not enough to keep him busy. I would have thought that tilling the earth was not the most useful thing he could have done.

Mosiah 6:7

7 And king Mosiah did cause his people that they should till the earth. And he also, himself, did till the earth,

This doesnt sound like much of an achievement - three years is not very long

Mosiah 6:7

7  And there was no contention among all his people for the space of three years.

 

 

[askandanswer]

The reference that @pam quoted is something that many missionaries make a big thing out of. Its' quite a powerful parable teaching an important principle about how faith can be grown.

[askandanswer]

22 hours ago, pam said:

Why all the trouble? Simply to save space. What space? Space on valuable plates.

This strikes me as a rather lame excuse/explanation, perhaps akin to the reasons given by Amaron, Chemis and Abinadom  in Omni for not writing more. We know that this land contained an abundance of gold and other precious metals. We know that these people were accustomed to building houses and tools and machinery and all manner of weapons of war, and a temple and pretty much everything else required to keep a society functioning. We know that huge quantities of plates were made once these plates were full. There doesn't seem to be any good reason preventing them from simply making more plates. It seems odd not to add to the word of God simply because you are running out of room to write it. The choice seems to be shall we be sparing in what we write about the word of God because we are running out of room or shall we be generous in imparting the word of God, and if we run out of room we'll just make some more plates. Somebody, probably a record keeper/record creator made a choice that they would rather cut back on writing the word than make more plates. 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

This strikes me as a rather lame excuse/explanation, perhaps akin to the reasons given by Amaron, Chemis and Abinadom  in Omni for not writing more. We know that this land contained an abundance of gold and other precious metals. We know that these people were accustomed to building houses and tools and machinery and all manner of weapons of war, and a temple and pretty much everything else required to keep a society functioning. We know that huge quantities of plates were made once these plates were full. There doesn't seem to be any good reason preventing them from simply making more plates. It seems odd not to add to the word of God simply because you are running out of room to write it. The choice seems to be shall we be sparing in what we write about the word of God because we are running out of room or shall we be generous in imparting the word of God, and if we run out of room we'll just make some more plates. Somebody, probably a record keeper/record creator made a choice that they would rather cut back on writing the word than make more plates. 

Remember that the small plates of Nephi were specifically created by Nephi to write "the things of [his] soul." They constituted a separate book or set of plates, and once finished, they were full. They were never intended to be added on to. That's my take on it, anyway.

It's useful to remember that Nephi himself was apparently never really sure why he had been commanded to make a second, much smaller set of plates, nor any of the future caretakers of that set of plates. Only we today, with Martin Harris' history to look back at, are in a position to understand why they were created at all.

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm almost starting to question my sanity here...

Perhaps question the sanity (or clarity, or scripture-citation-accuracy) of the 19-20 year-old missionary...

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

For example, I believe that the word "pig" never occurs in the Book of Mormon.

"pig" does not.  Swine occurs twice: once in 3 Nephi 14:6 when Christ teaches not to cast your pearls before swine and again in Ether 9:18 as one of the types of cattle they had in abundance during a time of righteousness.

 

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I could have absolutely sworn there was a story about the mustard seed growing into a giant tree in the Book of Mormon, and the missionaries making a big thing out of it. I'm not sure why i connected it with King Noah but I'm sure I got that from one of the missionaries too. I'm almost starting to question my sanity here...

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm reading about him now. (I've raced ahead a bit.) I have heard of him before - but somehow I associate him with the mustard seed story - and I could have sworn I got that information from the missionaries. This is beyond weird...

Or to put it another way:

"But memory fades so quickly, and time is the greatest liar of all."
-- Will Wight, Bloodline

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I think the overall point was that little things lead to big things, and it doesn't take much to get you started.

There are actually a few places in the Book of Mormon that talk about how the Lord brings about great things "by small and simple [things or means]".  So there may have been some of that mixed in there, too.

[pam]

Thanks for the answer to my question.  I totally missed that in vs 5.  

[pam]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I was familiar with Jesus' story of the mustard seed before I ever heard of the Book of Mormon and I initially thought this was what the missionaries were talking about. Maybe they just said "seed" and I subconsciously inserted the "mustard" myself. Thanks - and sorry to get flustered over this.

Don't be sorry.  It made me do a little research and study which is always good.  Never apologize for your questions here.  

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

This strikes me as a rather lame excuse/explanation...

We know that this land contained an abundance of gold and other precious metals...

There doesn't seem to be any good reason preventing them from simply making more plates...

What everyone seems to be forgetting is technology gap.  Yes, they had minerals and could make fires hot enough to make golden plates.  But it was an extremely difficult process.

Today, we have all kinds of devices for smelting, forging, and forming.  But back then... Just because they could do it did not mean it was easy.

First I have to make a point about weight.

Remember that the alloy used for the golden plates was not just pure gold.  That would have been WAYYYY too heavy to carry around.  The dimensions of the golden plates as told by Martin Harris was about 4x7x8in.  If that was pure gold, it would have weighed over 150 lbs.

Yes, a strong man could lift such a block.  But carry it all the way from a remote hill back to his farm?  How about Moroni?  he was wandering as he wrote the last few pages?  Carry a 150 lb block?  I don't think so.

Granted, both Joseph and Moroni were pretty big/strong men.  But carry that much weight long distances?  No.  It was not pure gold, but an alloy.

In Central America, we have found a particularly popular alloy (Tumbaga) made mostly of copper and gold.  It tends to be just a bit over half the density of gold alone.  It has the advantage of being much lighter and still has tremendous corrosion resistance.  Copper passivates, and gold is a noble metal.  Between the two, it isn't going to corrode in most natural conditions.  And it still had the luster of gold even when alloyed with copper (for a while).

So, what's the big deal?  The bronze age worked with copper.  It was an old technology.  True. But there's more to alloys than simply getting a hot fire.

To make an alloy, one must not just soften the metal to beat it with a hammer.  One must melt them down.  Luckily, both gold and copper have a lower melting point than iron.  And their melting temperatures are both around the same.  It seems like they were meant to be.  Not yet.

The other factor is that once melted, they begin to act a lot like water an oil.  Gold is much denser than copper.  So, molten gold will tend to sink as copper rises to the top of any mixing vessel.  The technology to mix the two while molten and keep them in a solution condition while it cools and solidifies is a difficult process.  Most samples of Tumbaga today are not true solutions.  The material is not homogeneous.  As such many ancient samples of Tumbaga do suffer from heavy patina or worse.

But to survive 1000s of years, the plates had to be homogeneous. And creating a homogeneous solution out of two metals with such disparate densities?  That required very high quality craftsmen and highly specialized tools.  That means it was expensive.

So, you can understand that they wanted to keep the plates to a minimum.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Carborendum

[pam]

I love the part where King Benjamin starts telling his people all about Christ to be born.  That his mother will be Mary.  Of all the wonderful things he will do.  And this was about 124 BC.  So already he was letting people know the Messiah was coming.  

[pam]

Mosiah 5:7 can be a bit confusing.  Here is what Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"The Son of God has a perfect right to call us his children, spiritually begotten, and we have a perfect right to look on him as our father who spiritually begot us.

"Now if these critics would read carefully the Book of Mormon, they would find that when the Savior came and visited the Nephites, he told them that he had been sent by his Father. He knelt before them, and he prayed to his Father. He taught them to pray to his Father, but that did not lessen in the least our duty and responsibility of looking upon the Son of God as a father to us because he spiritually begot us." (Conference Reports, Oct. 1962, p. 21)

[Vort]

43 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, you can understand that they wanted to keep the plates to a minimum.

I should have been commenting as we went, but I have been busy the last six weeks. Maybe I'll repent and go back to do comments.

One comment I would have offered is pure speculation, and perhaps not useful for anyone else. But here it is. Nephi is presented as a superman of sorts, able to do just about anything that the Lord commands of him. He smelts gold, he builds ships, he creates bows and arrows, swords—you name it, Nephi does it. Now, the ship thing is well explained in the text: Nephi doesn't know how to build ships, so the Lord tells him. But even then, Nephi's first question to the Lord is: Where do I go to find ore that I can smelt to make the tools we're going to need?

I don't know about you, but for me, that question would come up only after I had mulled the assignment over for a few hours, or days, or weeks. Nephi seems to have grasped immediately the overriding importance of building his tools.

I propose the idea (and I'm sure I am not the first to come up with this) that Nephi was a blacksmith, or whatever the sixth century BC Hebrew equivalent of a blacksmith was. He was very young when the Book of Mormon narrative opens, and even when they quit Jerusalem in 600 BC, Nephi was probably no more than twelve years old. So I am guessing that Nephi had filled the role of apprentice, or the ancient Near East equivalent, for five or six years, however long from the time he was big enough to actually provide some help for the smithy. Nephi was large, quite strong for his age, and extremely smart and observant; as a twelve-year-old who had spent five or six years in a blacksmith shop, becoming familiar with the tools and techniques, perhaps being allowed by his master to work metal at the forge and maybe fit the odd horseshoe or something of the sort, he would have been capable of taking metals, including perhaps even iron, from an ore to a usable state.

It's curious that Nephi, when dealing with the drunken Laban, removed Laban's sword from its scabbard and, even in a dark night, was able to recognize the fine workmanship of the weapon. Who does that? Only someone who has had extensive experience with weapons. I see no indication in the Book of Mormon that Nephi was ever a military person or that he ever had experience with weaponry; but if he was exposed to the creation of swords and other weapons, he would quickly learn to distinguish good workmanship from poor and fine steel from lesser products. Viewing Nephi as an experienced apprentice to a smith makes a whole lot of sense to me. It explains a lot, including how Nephi seemed to have a nose for finding ore and was undaunted at the idea of building himself a forge and working metal from ore to finished product.

I wonder if, with Lehi's immense wealth, he took a substantial quantity of gold in the form of coins or bullion into the wilderness as a medium of exchange, which Nephi may have found use for by alloying it with copper and other elements to produce ore for his many plates. It's impossible to tell, of course, but it makes for a neat, tidy, elegant explanation for how the plates originated.

[Just_A_Guy]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:43 PM, Carborendum said:

I'm not sure what that means.

The Book of Mosiah begins with Mosiah being chosen as king.  Sounds like the first chapter to me.

So, what does "Mosiah 3" mean? Was it that Benjamin had such little entry, that he was the first couple of chapters of Mosiah?  And what does linguistics have to do with that?

 I wish I could remember more of Bradley’s arguments—I lent his book to my FIL a year and a half ago and he still hasn’t returned it . . . IIRC he derives his argument in part from miscellaneous statements JS and Harris made about the contents of the lost pages, thematic elements, allusions in other part of the BoM as we have it today, and nuances in the manuscript itself.  My recollection is that Bradley hypothesizes that the Book of Mosiah actually begins with the reign of Benjamin’s father, Mosiah, who lived during a time of massive Nephite apostasy and basically re-enacted Nephi’s journey by taking a small group of followers and the holy Nephite relics and escaping to a new land (Zarahemla).

Edited October 14, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[zil2]

Mosiah 10

Be wise in preparing yourself and your family and home against physical or spiritual attack.  The virtues of work.  Rely on the Lord.

v12+: Interesting how the Lamanite version of events differs from the Nephite version.

v17: Don't teach your children to hate, murder, steal, etc.

Mosiah 11

It's interesting to me how often parents who appear to be righteous end up with rebellious and wicked children (in B of M stories).  If nothing else, we should use these examples to quell our tendency to blame parents for their children's behavior - they may be to blame for some, but it certainly seems they're not to blame for all of it, and heaven knows the difference.

v2: If the desires of your heart are contrary to the commandments of God, plead for God to change the desires of your heart.  (And do what you can toward that end.)

v3: Ah, here's that 1/5th tax.

v5: In my experience, when the new boss "cleans house" (replaces nearly everyone in short order), he's a bad boss.

v6: IMO, it doesn't matter whether it's the people doing the taxing or the people living off the taxes, government-supported laziness is a very, very bad thing.  (For that matter, a job that pays you to do nothing is a very, very bad thing. Use your time to find actual work!)

v7: Ah, the lies of politicians...

Well, Noah is just a good example of what not to do, regardless of who or where you are.  Love God instead of all that other stuff...  (Easier said than done.)

v19: Pride goeth before the fall...  This is a repeating theme in the Book of Mormon.  The Lord abandons you as soon as you decide you're  the one who's got all the power.

v20: It's interesting to note how quickly, and apparently easily, (many of) the people abandoned righteousness.  This is why we are told over and over to study the scriptures and pray daily, to attend Church meetings, to serve and minister, and everything else - it's really easy to go the other way.

v21: Enemies don't have to be people.  Enemies can be temptations, sin, weakness, etc..  Repent, so the Lord doesn't leave you to contend with such things alone.

v24: Repent early and often, so the Lord isn't slow to hear you and doesn't leave you to be "smitten" by your enemies.

Abinadi was a brave fellow.

v28-29: How easily we get upset with people who point out our passive descent into hell...

[Jamie123]

I never heard of "ziff" before. According to Wikipedia...

Ziff (/zɪf/^[1]) is an unknown material or item, probably a metal, mentioned in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 11:3,8). 

[zil2]

1 minute ago, Jamie123 said:

I never heard of "ziff" before. According to Wikipedia...

Ziff (/zɪf/^[1]) is an unknown material or item, probably a metal, mentioned in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 11:3,8). 

My theory: Joseph Smith (or the people of his time) had no word for whatever this material was, so rather than giving him a translation for what 21st century humans call this stuff, the Lord just gave Joseph a transliteration of the word.  (This is my theory for animals and plants as well.)  Some metal-history genius might be able to figure out what it was, though a lot of assumption about location is likely required...  Or maybe the Nephites used all the ziff to extinction (so to speak) and modern man is just out of luck...