Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?

[zil2]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

When it comes to God, I can't conceptualize everything that He is, how He came to be, how He exists as an individual, nor His power. When I say I have faith in Jesus Christ, I'm saying I have faith in something I don't understand. This makes analyzing this statement difficult for me.

God is the Father of your spirit.  Jesus Christ is your brother.  They are the same species as you.  That they are exalted doesn't change that.

Study the scriptures.  Who and what Christ is are clearly taught in the scriptures.  Go from Genesis 1 (understanding that Jehovah is premortal Jesus Christ) and go through Article of Faith 13.  Start in the topical guide entries for Jesus Christ, if you wish.  Study him.  Read about him.  He was a mortal man, with a physical body not so different from any other man.  But he was perfect, sinless, the Son of God.

When you come to know Jesus Christ, you know God.  (Though knowing them is a process that will not be complete until and unless exalted in the Celestial Kingdom.  Until then, move forward with what you know, and keep learning and getting better at doing what Christ taught - that's how you come to know him, by doing what he taught.)

Don't let yourself get hung up on how he (and you and I and everyone) existed eternally, without beginning.  Mortal humans simply cannot understand eternity past - it makes no sense.  We are creatures of beginnings.  The idea that there never was a beginning is unfathomable to us.  It's much easier to imagine eternity future - we can imagine going forward.  We cannot imagine how it is that we existed for eternity and yet are still at a stage of development where just dragging ourselves out of bed in the morning is a struggle.  It's baffling.  Let it go.  It's something for future-you to understand.

8 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

What I do understand are feelings or love, forgiveness, and compassion. God is all these things and is the source. I use these synonymously with Jesus Christ and God. Yes, Jesus Christ is more than a feeling, He is an individual, He is a God, but it's those very feelings and knowledge that help guide us towards the light. 

Rather than thinking of the feelings, then, think of the person from whom the feelings flow.  You may not know what he looks like or understand how he can be perfect, but surely you can imagine that there is a person from whom all these things come.  And try to think of it this way:  your feelings and knowledge are guiding you toward the person holding the light.  Check out 2 Nephi 32:4:

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4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

You know there's light because Jesus Christ is showing it to you.  You cannot reach the light without Jesus Christ bringing you into it.  He loves you enough to shine the light in your direction and to offer to bring you out of darkness and into the light; and enough to let you decide whether to come, or stay in darkness.  It's not light or truth you're after - it's to be in the presence of Jesus Christ, who will open your eyes to the light and teach you (to understand) the truth.

In short, try connecting those things that make sense to you to the person through whom they come.  An effort to connect to the person is required to make that connection.  If you say, "well, I can't understand God so I'll just think about love, forgiveness, and compassion", you will never gain understanding of God.  You might get a bit closer, but you won't get there until you intentionally decide to seek a relationship with the person.

[clbent04]

43 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

With an absolute such as God, one cannot separate the two.  The feelings of love are what guide us to Him.  He is the embodiment of charity.

So, that makes me wonder why you asked the original question. 

I'm trying to open my mind in terms of how God comes to save the world, not condemn it. When we say we must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, I think I misinterpreted that phrase for most my life as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; I applied it too narrowly. I applied it more in terms of God damning people who aren't members of the Church rather than seeing how He is working with all of His children regardless of creed.

Edited October 9, 2023 by clbent04

[zil2]

21 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm trying to open my mind in terms of how God comes to save the world, not condemn it.

Most of Christianity can recite John 3:16 by heart:

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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

...But I like verse 17 even better:

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For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Make no mistake, the day will come when the wicked will be condemned, but the Lord will give them every possible chance to repent and turn to him before that day comes. (And that day doesn't come, as far as I can tell, until the end of the Millennium.)

[zil2]

Some good "name" scriptures to ponder:

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Moses 1:20-22 (Satan won't go until the right name is used / authority invoked)

20 And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.

21 And now Satan began to tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.

22 And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not.

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Moses 5:.8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

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3 Nephi 27:7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

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D&C 46:31 And again, I say unto you, all things must be done in the name of Christ, whatsoever you do in the Spirit;

And, to be completely clear: no one believes that just speaking Christ's name has some magical power.  It is acting by authority (see Acts 19:13-15 - you cannot assume priesthood authority, it must be conferred properly) and doing as Christ would do (in other words, keeping covenants), acting in harmony with God's will, etc. that makes invoking Christ's name effective  In a certain sense, the above are saying "be good" - because you can't "sin in Christ's name" - the idea is absurd.  From the Bible Dictionary entry for Prayer:

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We pray in Christ’s name when our mind is the mind of Christ, and our wishes the wishes of Christ—when His words abide in us (John 15:7). We then ask for things it is possible for God to grant. Many prayers remain unanswered because they are not in Christ’s name at all; they in no way represent His mind but spring out of the selfishness of man’s heart.

And that's just the tip of the "name" iceberg.  Lots of good study opportunities here.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

There's a cheezy acronym that's meant to define atonement: At-One-Ment with Christ. If there is any validity to it at all then faith in Christ would be more important than the condition of the heart. Many people repent of their sins only to commit worse ones in the name of that repentance.

"Why you do the terrible deed?"

"Because I felt bad about _________________, and thought this would make up for it." 

I addition to what @Carborendum shared, our hearts are what choose faith, so their condition is paramount. They cannot choose faith without the light of Christ to shine upon the "word" they hear. I consider this a form of grace, for everyone, everywhere has it, though it may be disregarded by some to a great degree. 

[CV75]

7 hours ago, mikbone said:

Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel.  Faith is an object of power and motivation.  When we have faith in Jesus Christ we desire to learn more about him. We want to become more like him.  

True faith leads to a broken heart and contrite spirit which in turn allows us to repent and witness the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Everyone will be saved from physical death - eventually.  But only those who truly desire to become like Jesus Christ by following the covenant path will receive salvation from spiritual death.

Faith that does not lead to a broken heart and contrite spirit is not really Faith in Jesus Christ.

A broken heart and contrite spirit that does not lead to partaking of the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ can’t help us either.

There are many times when people have a broken heart.  Look at what is happening in Israel and Gaza right now.  

There is a well demarcated path.  Those who choose to trail-blaze their own path via ignorance, pride, boredom, or (choose your favorite sin / distraction here), will never find true salvation.

Faith in Christ is the first principle of the gospel, but choosing it is a matter of the receptivity of the heart to discern that which is good as illuminated by the light of Christ. We all have this opportunity to choose to have faith in Christ and act on it, but do not always condition our hearts to do so.

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I'm trying to open my mind in terms of how God comes to save the world, not condemn it. When we say we must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, I think I misinterpreted that phrase for most my life as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; I applied it too narrowly. I applied it more in terms of God damning people who aren't members of the Church rather than seeing how He is working with all of His children regardless of creed.

Well, this is a completely different question now.  It seems you're going all over the board.  Again I ask:  What is really going on?

Maybe you ought to take a different approach.  Just take a breath.  There is something else that is the root of your question.

Once you figure that central point, then try to figure out what all these other things are that you're asking about.  How do they connect to your central point.

Don't think it will come all at once.  Ponder for a few days.  Recollect your thoughts.  Bring it into a cohesive statement and question.  Then try again.

[Vort]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does it even matter to our salvation that we give credit specifically to someone named Jesus Christ? I don't think so. God has many names: Alpha and Omega, Messiah, Jehovah, Immanuel, The Word, Our Dwelling Place, Lord Master... Is God not all truth and light?

It appears to me that you're utterly missing the point. It's not a matter of giving Christ sufficient praise, as if his glory depends somehow on my reverencing him enough. I will not be saved unless Christ saves me. I cannot be saved without knowing and accepting Christ's salvation. So yes, it matters that we "give credit specifically to someone named Jesus Christ."

[Vort]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

Next comes "broken heart".  I submit that this does not mean "heartbroken".  People are "heartbroken" when they break up with their girlfriend or when their beloved pet dies.  While not unrelated, I do not believe this is what scripture is talking about.  So, let's look at some definitions of "broken" (all from Merriam-Webster):

• violently separated into parts
• damaged or altered by or as if by breaking
• disrupted by change
• made weak or infirm
• subdued completely
• reduced in rank
• cut off : disconnected
• imperfectly spoken or written
• not complete or full
• disunited by divorce, separation, or desertion of one parent

These aren't all, but they're the ones I can loosely link to the scriptural meaning.  That one in bold is the most important.  Neither this dictionary nor google's used the example they should have - namely, of breaking a horse.  It doesn't mean shattering it into multiple pieces (hard to do unless it's frozen solid anyway), it means taming said horse, teaching it to submit to human authority, teaching it to obey.  We have a broken heart when we are humble, submissive, and meek (see Mosiah 3:19); when we are "stripped of pride" (Alma 5:28).  We have a broken heart when we allow Christ to change our heart (tame us, in a sense), when we recognize his authority and our dependence, when we choose to obey because he knows all and we know essentially nothing.

When you "break" a horse, the animal becomes docile and useful. A broken horse will carry loads, including you, pull what you need pulled, and in general obey your will. An unbroken horse will be pretty much useless to you. I believe this is the sense in which our hearts need to be broken.

[clbent04]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Well, this is a completely different question now.  It seems you're going all over the board.  Again I ask:  What is really going on?

Maybe you ought to take a different approach.  Just take a breath.  There is something else that is the root of your question.

Once you figure that central point, then try to figure out what all these other things are that you're asking about.  How do they connect to your central point.

Don't think it will come all at once.  Ponder for a few days.  Recollect your thoughts.  Bring it into a cohesive statement and question.  Then try again.

My central point through this thread has been focused on how God came to save the world, not condemn it. I've posted this topic largely thinking about those I've observed in this world condemning others in the name of Jesus Christ. 

When I see people wanting others to say specific phrases like, "I accept Jesus Christ into my heart", or something along those lines where it's expected to be repeated verbatim in order to get that organization's sign off that that person has been saved, that to me has more of a focus on exclusion and condemning rather than saving. 

I think many religious organizations are guilty of condemning and overstepping boundaries of judgement that are God's and God's alone.

[clbent04]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I cannot be saved without knowing and accepting Christ's salvation. So yes, it matters that we "give credit specifically to someone named Jesus Christ."

I agree with what you said here. I didn't word a few of posts as well as I could have to accurately convey what I was trying to express. I believe giving credit to Jesus Christ is important, but since He has many names, I don't think saying the specific name "Jesus Christ" is important. If I want to say God instead of Jesus Christ, my faith is neither diminished nor magnified.

[zil2]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

If I want to say God instead of Jesus Christ, my faith is neither diminished nor magnified.

This is true.  Though an understanding of the roles of God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, and that they are two different people is also important.  (Just to be clear.)

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

My central point through this thread has been focused on how God came to save the world, not condemn it.

That was not reflected in the title of the thread or in your OP.  It's ok if you're changing topics.  That happens.  But do you understand why you had me confused by doing so?

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I've posted this topic largely thinking about those I've observed in this world condemning others in the name of Jesus Christ. 

Well, that is an entire discussion by itself.

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

When I see people wanting others to say specific phrases like, "I accept Jesus Christ into my heart", or something along those lines where it's expected to be repeated verbatim in order to get that organization's sign off that that person has been saved, that to me has more of a focus on exclusion and condemning rather than saving. 

I think many religious organizations are guilty of condemning and overstepping boundaries of judgement that are God's and God's alone.

If this is your central point, then I'd agree that is always a problem no matter what the circumstances.  I don't know if you want to tie it back into the OP or not.  But I'll do so in the following manner.

Can we accept Christ without knowing His name or focusing on it?  Yes, possibly.  But I've found an interesting element of human psychology.  Words mean something.  Words have power.

Yes, words are manmade constructs.  But they convey a meaning/thought that becomes more concrete once spoken.  My nephew is incredibly handicapped both physically and mentally.  His parents were so worried about him for years as they took him to various doctors/specialists until a doctor told them the name of his condition.  They were all of a sudden relieved that there was a name for it.

Why?  It didn't change his condition.  And there was no treatment for it.  Nothing changed.  But by the very fact that they had a name for it, they were relieved.

A manmade construct?  Yes.  But there is a reason why human beings communicate with such complexity that other animals do not.

In the beginning was the Word.  Why the word?  Well, that is a long story.  

Everything begins with a thought.  But often times, a thought doesn't go anywhere.  But once we put words to it (whether spoken or written) there is now the first step of action.  That thought now has legs.  Where will it go from there?

Our covenants have specific words to them.  These are outlined specifically to focus the mind on certain ideals.  Could they be achieved with other words?  Perhaps.  But why reinvent the wheel?  Who knows?  You might make an oval wheel or a triangular wheel.  That wouldn't work too wheel .

The evangelicals who insist that you say "I accept Jesus Christ into my heart" may have the right idea with poor execution.  Words are important.  But what does it mean to "accept someone into your heart"?

I remember the primary argument about faith/works that I had with my high school religious debate acquaintance was what "faith" actually means.  He insisted that it meant that "I've accepted Jesus into my heart."  That sounds all mushy-nice and all.  But that is a really vague concept.  I've known too many who have "accepted into their hearts" and yet lead lives of decadence and arrogance (he was one of them).  That is not something I want to aspire to.

To us faith is more than simple belief or a touchy-feely emotion.  The strength of faith comes from it being a motivating principle of action.  If that "feeling" is not sufficient to motivate change, then it is not faith.  It's just empty words and feelings.  Nothing more.

It is not that the actions alone suffice. But that the faith behind the action was real and sufficient to motivate action.  And that the actions were motivated by faith in Christ rather than faith in man.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[clbent04]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

This is true.  Though an understanding of the roles of God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, and that they are two different people is also important.  (Just to be clear.)

In terms of affecting our progression here on Earth, I don’t think it’s important to distinguish the Father from the Son. Whether they are two separate beings or one, it has no significant bearing on how I’m progressing here on Earth and living by faith. Once God reveals these things to us where we have a sure knowledge, then I think it’s important to accept and embrace the truth as it’s revealed to us. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by clbent04

[zil2]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

In terms of affecting our progression here on Earth, I don’t think it’s important to distinguish the Father from the Son. Whether they are two separate beings or one, it has no significant bearing on how I’m progressing here on Earth and living by faith. Once God reveals these things to us where we have a sure knowledge, then I think it’s important to accept and embrace the truth as it’s revealed to us. 

Joseph Smith said:

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If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.

God has revealed these things.  Start with the Gospel Topics entry for Godhead.

[clbent04]

5 minutes ago, zil2 said:

God has revealed these things.  Start with the Gospel Topics entry for Godhead.

Whether the Father and the Son are two separate beings or one, does that fact have a significant impact on my progression while here on Earth and living by faith?

[Vort]

Just now, clbent04 said:

Whether the Father and the Son are two separate beings or one, does that fact have a significant impact on my progression while here on Earth and living by faith?

I think at some point it very much does. Not sure I can identify what point that is, though.

My attitude is that if some aspect of the gospel is carefully explained to me in scripture and other sacred sources, it must be because that's something very important that I need to pay attention to. It must be something relevant for my understanding of God and ability to progress. Since the scriptures go to great pains (at times, not always) to distinguish between the Father and the Son, and since e.g. we are particularly instructed not to pray to Jesus Christ unless he is literally standing before us in the flesh, but rather always to the Father in the name of Christ, I assume that such identification is deeply important at some level and vital to my understanding of the divine.

Now, whether it is equally vital that a little child or new investigator (I believe the missionaries today call them "friends") be aware of this important distinction is less obvious to me. I suspect that knowing that God is in his heaven and that we can talk with him is probably enough to start building your foundation, even if you're not completely clear on who is who.

[clbent04]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That was not reflected in the title of the thread or in your OP.  It's ok if you're changing topics.  That happens.  But do you understand why you had me confused by doing so?

Yes, my thoughts are a bit jumbled in how I've expressed them in this thread. Apologies for that. And also thank you for your responses. In my mind, these thoughts are clearly connected together with the focus being on how God has not come to condemn but to save.

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It is not that the actions alone suffice. But that the faith behind the action was real and sufficient to motivate action.  And that the actions were motivated by faith in Christ rather than faith in man.

We take upon ourselves the name of Christ and collectively represent the body of Christ. The light of Christ is present among mankind. Having faith in Christ and having faith in mankind sometimes represents the same thing, does it not? God works through us.

Edited October 10, 2023 by clbent04

[Carborendum]

43 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Yes, my thoughts are a bit jumbled in how I've expressed them in this thread. Apologies for that. And also thank you for your responses. In my mind, these thoughts are clearly connected together with the focus being on how God has not come to condemn but to save.

We take upon ourselves the name of Christ and collectively represent the body of Christ. The light of Christ is present among mankind. Having faith in Christ and having faith in mankind sometimes represents the same thing, does it not? God works through us.

So, if we worship man that means the same thing as worshiping Christ?

No. 

But you are trying out Buddhism, aren't you?  Or was that someone else?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

26 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Having faith in Christ and having faith in mankind sometimes represents the same thing, does it not?

IMO, never the same thing.  Faith in Christ, I've already defined.  I do not need to believe that mankind can do anything in order to have faith in Christ.  Look at Moroni - he was alone and hunted by the Lamanites.  He had faith in Christ.  I imagine the only faith he could muster in the people around him was faith that they'd kill him if they could catch him.  Similar things could be said of Ether.

Is it good to believe that we are all brothers and sisters, that each of us has the potential for good, to treat each person with respect and kindness, etc.?  Absolutely.  But that's nothing like the faith we have in Christ.

[zil2]

40 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Whether the Father and the Son are two separate beings or one, does that fact have a significant impact on my progression while here on Earth and living by faith?

What @Vort said.  Yes, it matters.  Maybe not at the beginning of one's learning the gospel of Jesus Christ, but eventually, yes.

[JohnsonJones]

So, the other day I built a Book case and put it up. 

Which was more important, knowing about the Book case or actually building it?

The same would apply here.

Without knowing about the Book Case I could have never put it up in the first place.  I could have never constructed that particular Book Case if I did not even know it existed.  I could not have constructed the Book Case unless I had the belief that I was able to construct it.

At the same time, if ALL I had was knowledge of the Book Case and the faith I would be able to build it, but never put in the effort to actually BUILD it...the Book case would have never been made.  The Book Case would not exist without my work to build it.

In this instance then, which is more important?

The Book case MUST have BOTH MY KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF AS WELL AS MY WORK in order to be built and exist.

I'd say the same in answer to your question.  You have to have both in order to have salvation.  Each element on it's own does not work.  One is the first STEP to Salvation, but the other is NECESSARY to actually ACHIEVE that salvation. 

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

So, if we worship man that means the same thing as worshiping Christ?

No. 

But you are trying out Buddhism, aren't you?  Or was that someone else?

Not the same context as to what I'm addressing. I said "faith in Jesus Christ" and you switched it to "worship." Not the same. Faith in Jesus Christ can also apply to faith in the light of Christ that is within us. We are the body of Christ when we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ.

I didn't mention anything about Buddhism.

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

IMO, never the same thing.  Faith in Christ, I've already defined.  I do not need to believe that mankind can do anything in order to have faith in Christ.  Look at Moroni - he was alone and hunted by the Lamanites.  He had faith in Christ.  I imagine the only faith he could muster in the people around him was faith that they'd kill him if they could catch him.  Similar things could be said of Ether.

Your examples focus on the disobedience of man. That isn't what I was addressing. I was talking about the light of Christ within us.

Edited October 10, 2023 by clbent04

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Your examples focus on the disobedience of man. That isn't what I was addressing. I was talking about the light of Christ within us.

My examples focus on the fact that faith in man and faith in Jesus Christ are not the same thing.  And if you have faith in the light of Christ, well, that's faith in Christ.  I also mentioned that believing good things about or having hope for people is not the same as faith in Christ.  I'm all in favor of looking as positively as you can on others (I believe God expects us to see others as He does), but I cannot find any way to believe that faith in mankind is ever the same as faith in Christ.  Indeed, you'll have no trouble finding scriptures that tell you not to have that kind of faith in man - to have it only in God.