Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?

[Carborendum]

There is always a balancing of our own work

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12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 -- Philip 2:12

vs Christ's power to change us.

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13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is always both.

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I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 -- Philip 4:13

[Traveler]

Words and communications are only symbols that have some commonality.   In our modern culture, when we talk about our “heart” – I am impressed that it is something quite different that the ancient concept that we translate.  Rather than a reference to an emotion – I believe that anciently the reference to heart was a reference to the very core of all that there is that defines us.  Kind of like the expression of, “The heart of the matter”.   With this idea, following one’s heart does not mean the abandonment of logic and sense but rather includes our mind and is but one of the elements that defines us as to who we are.

With all this in mind – I believe that this thread if a fruitless endeavor to separate various terms symbolically describing the same essence.  In essence – there is no difference in our core belief, what is the object of our actual faith and the true urnings of our hearts.  Sometimes I think religious people get too wrapped up in the person of Jesus and lose track of the concept that Christ is “The Way”, “The Truth” and “The Light” – something more than the person.

 

The Traveler

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

With all this in mind – I believe that this thread if a fruitless endeavor to separate various terms symbolically describing the same essence.  In essence – there is no difference in our core belief, what is the object of our actual faith and the true urnings of our hearts.  Sometimes I think religious people get too wrapped up in the person of Jesus and lose track of the concept that Christ is “The Way”, “The Truth” and “The Light” – something more than the person.

The purpose of this thread for me is to acknowledge and contemplate further how Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

A specific example of what I relate this to is when X organization says to its member, "You must say the exact words, 'I accept Jesus Christ into my heart', in order to obtain salvation." This type of mindset is prevalent in many Christian religions including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (think temple ordinances). Yes, being saved from an LDS belief perspective is possible without going through temple ordinances, but entering the Celestial Kingdom is not.

I don't know if there is a "one and only true church of God" here on the earth today. Whether or not there is, I don't believe in a God who will condemn any of us for not reciting a specific phrase or doing a specific ordinance at least until the truth of such phrases or ordinances can be revealed to us in such a way we cannot deny or refute it.

Living by faith to draw closer to Jesus Christ is evidenced by many different walks of life, and no one organization has the one and only way to do it.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

The purpose of this thread for me is to acknowledge and contemplate further how Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

A specific example of what I relate this to is when X organization says to its member, "You must say the exact words, 'I accept Jesus Christ into my heart', in order to obtain salvation." This type of mindset is prevalent in many Christian religions including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (think temple ordinances). Yes, being saved from an LDS belief perspective is possible without going through temple ordinances, but entering the Celestial Kingdom is not.

I don't know if there is a "one and only true church of God" here on the earth today. Whether or not there is, I don't believe in a God who will condemn any of us for not reciting a specific phrase or doing a specific ordinance at least until the truth of such phrases or ordinances can be revealed to us in such a way we cannot deny or refute it.

Living by faith to draw closer to Jesus Christ is evidenced by many different walks of life, and no one organization has the one and only way to do it.

Because of my mathematical background – I am very accustomed to the concept of a singular answer.  It is interesting to me that at one point of history there was an attempt to pass a law that the legal value of pi is “3”.  It was determined by some brilliant thinkers that the irrational non-repeating decimal answer was too difficult to deal with.

I am of the mind that pseudo-science has the ability to come up with many “valid” answers to things – like how many genders are there. 

If anyone wants to deal with the logic of religion and determine that there is only one true and living G-d – all that is necessary, is to employ that same logic to realize that there is only one true and living church of G-d and means to become “one” with G-d.  Or as Jesus said, to become one with him and the Father (John chapter 17).

I have no problem with what anyone wants to believe or why they want to believe it.  I strongly believe in agency and free will and fully support such things.  But I have discovered that reality is well ordered in that there is a singularity in what is correct.  For example, if you want to take your family to the moon – you can calculate your path there any way you want and come up with many answers and variations on answers.  I will choose for myself and my family a singular method without any allowance for even a very small, almost no deviance.  If there is any deviance I would choose to correct it.

If there are many methods and possibilities to get into the Kingdom of heaven – I do not understand at all why you would care what methods or choices anyone thinks is a viable method to accomplish their goal.

I believe there is one and only one correct answer – all other answers are wrong – regardless of if some are closer to the correct answer or not; they are still incorrect.  However, I have discovered that slight variations to being correct are only because of small misunderstandings or missing something. 

I do agree with you – some thinking if obviously off the wall wrong.  But I do contend that the counterfeits of most concern (at least for me) are the counterfeits that look most like the true item.
 

 

The Traveler

[popatr]

clbent04:
Late to the game, but here are my thoughts.

In LDS doctrine, the bar for salvation (resurrection to a wonderful kingdom of glory) is pretty low; it only requires what you said, an acceptance of Jesus Christ in the spirit world prior to resurrection, when he is amply/unmistakably revealed.  Yes God is a saver not condemner, even including people you yourself would rather not see saved.

But you say, "Ah, but they don't get the celetial kingdom!"  So what?  Who says they even want it?  "These will I make my rulers."  Does everyone want to be a congressman?  Would we call them condemned for not getting chosen as a congressman?  No!  (A better example would be those who were chosen to help Moses administrate the children of Israel but it is less familiar to us)

Attempting to use your same flavor of language, the terrestrial kingdom is for people who have a good condition of their hearts but don't have faith in Christ, in spite of some imperfect but sufficient exposure to that light.  (only God can determine sufficient exposure but we shouldn't deny it). Or to mimic the language of the doctrine and covenants, they are the honorable men of the earth but who were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus.  The terrestrial kingdom is awesome salvation.

So I don't really think you should be afraid to accept the importance of sharing and accepting the name of Jesus in this life.  Sure it is sketchy work with all kinds of mixed results, but that's kinda the point.  God is broadcasting light to us and we get to find out how much we like the light, and reflect and act out the same light fairly accurately.

Of course I must acknowledge that the name of Jesus is not available in human language at all places and times.  I must also acknowledge that this is no barrier to God; as his light goes out and we respond to it, there is surely ample evidence in the life of every person whether they have a portion of the celestial which can build into a fullness.

What I think is ALWAYS true, is that the celestial person must love God and not just morality.  I think this is obviously necessary.  Why are they more rewardable than those with simply good hearts?  I think it is because they know perfectly well that however good their hearts are, they are far inferior to God; and if they were to lessen the fervency of their devotion to Him, they would be slowed or stopped in their progress.

People might latch onto a certain morality and utterly corrupt it.  They might multilate thier children in the name of love and tolerance.  They need to worship Jesus instead;  he could have helped them implement their morality correctly.

[prisonchaplain]

My outsider understanding is that LDS believe Jesus Saves! They are happy that most people will earn some type of heavenly reward. However, knowing the Celestial Kingdom is available and having been taught how to reach it--and the closest fellowship with Heavenly Father--anything less would feel like a great loss. Perhaps even like hell. 

I'm a Pentecostal, so only believe there is one heavenly realm (though perhaps with levels of rewards within it). Even I would be most disappointed to learn in glory that I could have done better for my LORD, and that my reward is therefore less than it might have been.