Can anyone help answer my question?

[anwar1983]

I know very little about your faith and my knowledge is limited to the few books I have read and the rare occasions that I have spoken with Mormons.

One aspect that has come up and confused me is the Church's position on Black people, which I know has been amended in the last 30 years or so.

From what I know the Book of Mormon is a collection of stories about the people of the Americas who were visited by Christ. Where these people not indegenous peoples, would it not be fair to say that they were more like Black people than White?

Why therefore were Black people demonized for so long by the Church and it's followers? Can these principles really be changed, or is it a case of the Church bowing to political corrrectness but do most Mormons believe that Black people are evil?

If my comments have come across as ignorant or offensive they I humbly apologize, it was not my intention. I am just genuinely interested to know what you all think and to increase my knowledge.

Thank you.

[checkerboy]

Blacks have never been demonized in the church. They have been denied the priesthood and the revelation giving them the priesthood came some 10-15 years after the civil rights movement.

The people in the Book of Mormon came from three seperate groups, the first group was from Babel, the second and third groups came from Jerusalem. After several generations I guess you could call them indegenous. Who knows if they met others who were here before them? I don't know that they would be considered black seeing as Native Americans of today aren't considered black.

Hope that helps.

[AnthonyB]

anwar,

(I hope I don't offend anyone with posting this answer, just thought the following might help explain it a bit more.)

Historically (in the OT) the Aaronic preisthood had a very restricted franchise, only people from a certain family (Aaron) in a certain tribe (Levi) from a specific people (Jews) were accepted by God. So rather than seeing it as blacks being barred, it could be seen as God slowly increasing the franchise of who could be allowed.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well put, Anthony.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Anwar,

Why therefore were Black people demonized for so long by the Church and it's followers?

Just out of curiosity, what sort of demonizing do you think went on in the church? You may have been given some incorrect information.

Here's something from our Book of Mormon:

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. - 2 Nephi 26:32-33

And here's a quote from a past church leader, at a time when the civil rights debate was rocking America:

...he is not denied entrance into the Church. He may be baptized for the remission of his sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and if true and faithful to the end, he may enter the celestial kingdom. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds out more for the Negro than any other religious denomination. Salvation in the Kingdom of God is open to him, with the promise that in the due time of the Lord, if he receives the gospel, all restrictions will be removed.

No church or other organization is more insistent than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that the Negroes should receive all the rights and privileges that can possibly be given to any other in the true sense of equality as declared in the Declaration of Independence. They should be equal to ""life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."" They should be equal in the matter of education. They should not be barred from obtaining knowledge and becoming proficient in any field of science, art or mechanical occupation. They should be free to choose any kind of employment, to go into business in any field they may choose and to make their lives as happy as it is possible without interference from white men, labor unions or from any other source. In their defense of these privileges the members of the Church will stand. - Joseph Fielding Smith, 1957, Answers to Gospel Questions

do most Mormons believe that Black people are evil?

I've met a few racist mormons in my travels, but for the vast, vast majority, the answer is no.

Welcome!

LM

[Doctor Steuss]

A place to start:

Blacks and the Priesthood :: Blacklds.org

[siouxz72]

Well put, Anthony. I really dislike the OP usage of the word demonized. That's just not right.

[Dale]

There was an idea some older LDS leaders have expressed that was racist. One was that black's were less valiant in the pre-existence so were born black. Renee Olsen a Black LDS convert gave a FAIR talk where she discussed such comment's that modern LDS are not into. Such ideas hurt black's but the LDS Church has changed so much since it's pre-1979 day's. The transcript of her talk is online in the FAIR topical Guide if i can find her talk i will later get you the link. If you want to search on your own LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage . It's FAIR Wiki also might have articles regarding race and they find a link to it's wiki on the main FAIR page.

[Dr T]

"To represent as evil or diabolic" as a definition then, wouldn't be accurate?

Definition from Dictionary.com

[Doctor Steuss]

There was an idea some older LDS leaders have expressed that was racist. One was that black's were less valiant in the pre-existence so were born black. Renee Olsen a Black LDS convert gave a FAIR talk where she discussed such comment's that modern LDS are not into. Such ideas hurt black's but the LDS Church has changed so much since it's pre-1979 day's. The transcript of her talk is online in the FAIR topical Guide if i can find her talk i will later get you the link. If you want to search on your own LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage . It's FAIR Wiki also might have articles regarding race and they find a link to it's wiki on the main FAIR page.

I'm not sure if this is the talk by Sister Olson that you were talking about. If not, I think this is worth reading as well:

Black Myth :: Blacklds.org

[Moksha]

Can these principles really be changed, or is it a case of the Church bowing to political corrrectness but do most Mormons believe that Black people are evil?

Change happens all the time throughout the universe. Consider this: Church missionaries are reaching out to Black people as I type this.

[siouxz72]

Change happens all the time throughout the universe. Consider this: Church missionaries are reaching out to Black people as I type this.

lol...moksha! you cheeky monkey!

[Dale]

Doctor Stuess that's the talk. Here is the link to the FAIR page with her Dispelling the Black Myth talk.

FAIR Topical Guide: Blacks and the Priesthood It's under the FAIR resources section on that page. In the FAIR Topical they have a good section devoted to Race and Cultural Issues.

I am a Reorganized latter Day Saint. We started having black priesthood in 1865. Joseph Smith 3rd had a revelation given through him on May 4,1865, It say's in part "Therefore it is expedient in me that you ordain priests unto me, of every race who receive the teachings of my law, and become heirs according to the promise." (D.&C. 116:1c., pg.155)

The LDS leader Spencer W. Kimball got his authorization in 1978. Prior to them feeling God ok'd the ordination of black's they just couldn't do it. They felt God via modern revelation put the ban in place and only he could lift it. I was LDS in the 1970's and i was glad that God inspired that good man to lift the pro-hibition on the ordination of black's. I never considered the policy racist only something God wanted in place for his own secret reason.

[MorningStar]

This is from The Book of Mormon - 2 Nephi 26:33

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he ainviteth them ball to ccome unto him and partake of his goodness; and he ddenieth none that come unto him, black and white, ebond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the fheathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

The church has never "demonized" African Americans. We are all children of God.

[Traveler]

I know very little about your faith and my knowledge is limited to the few books I have read and the rare occasions that I have spoken with Mormons.

One aspect that has come up and confused me is the Church's position on Black people, which I know has been amended in the last 30 years or so.

From what I know the Book of Mormon is a collection of stories about the people of the Americas who were visited by Christ. Where these people not indegenous peoples, would it not be fair to say that they were more like Black people than White?

Why therefore were Black people demonized for so long by the Church and it's followers? Can these principles really be changed, or is it a case of the Church bowing to political corrrectness but do most Mormons believe that Black people are evil?

If my comments have come across as ignorant or offensive they I humbly apologize, it was not my intention. I am just genuinely interested to know what you all think and to increase my knowledge.

Thank you.

It has always been doctrine that blacks would, in time, receive all the blessing of eternity. It has never been a question of if - but rather a question of when.

In essence we all wait on the L-rd for a time before we receive blessings. Some say they know the reason and sell their speculation and knowledge. I know of nothing in LDS doctrine that indicates why in these last days Blacks were not given all the blessings of the Priesthood at the time of the dawn of the restoration.

Because there is no clear doctrine many that dislike the church give an answer – but I do not find any such explanations realistic or sensible.

The Traveler

[Dale]

Perhap's the reason is there was no great desire to see if God would earlier change the policy. And i think earlier LDS leader's felt the policy was of God, so they never questioned it. And since they felt God had not spoken to them to lift the black ordination pro-hibition they continued it one prophet after the other. Perhap's Spencer W. Kimball was the first to really desire God to lift the ban. So he was motivated enough to ask God and got a positive clear answer, and the other's wern't motivated enough for change.

[Elphaba]

Here is another article about the Church's history of its relationship with its black members. I thought it was comprehensive and fairly well-done, though a few issues were not addressed. However, they were minor.

Black Latter-day Saints: A Faith-FULL History

Jane Mannings James, a black convert at the age of 19, is my favorite person in all of Morminism. I still get choked up when I hear of her traveling so far with no shoes only to arrive in Nauvoo and still be met with such prejudice. Then she finally finds Joseph's house.

Contrary to all of the experiences she'd endured on her journey, Joseph welcomed her, understanding what she had suffered to get to Nauvoo. He understood that her commitment to the gospel was something all future members should be taught. The acts of kindness she felt from Joseph and Emma actually confused her becauee she had never had anyone treat her with such respect and love. I love Joseph and Emma for treating her with suc dignity and respect.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Perhap's the reason is there was no great desire to see if God would earlier change the policy. And i think earlier LDS leader's felt the policy was of God, so they never questioned it. And since they felt God had not spoken to them to lift the black ordination pro-hibition they continued it one prophet after the other. Perhap's Spencer W. Kimball was the first to really desire God to lift the ban. So he was motivated enough to ask God and got a positive clear answer, and the other's wern't motivated enough for change.

Hi Dale,

If my memory serves me, I believe President David O. McKay went to the Lord first to ask about the policy of blacks not being able to hold the priesthood as he felt it was time. However, he met with opposition within the First Presidency. More importantly, he did not recieve a confirmaaton from the Lord.

If I am wrong, would someone please correct me? I really do not want to give out wrong informtion, and on this one I am going by memory.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[Dale]

Elphaba i did not know that. You are more knowledgeable than i am. I never heard that before. But if God knew people would argue with him i could see him waiting on giving a revelation. People around the prophet would have said the prophet got a false revelation. So i could see the Lord waiting for the leadership to be receptive. it would be better than wasting time giving a revelation the other leader's would blame on man, or the Devil.

Answers from God come in the form of yes, no, go or pause. David O. McKay sound's to me like he was told to pause. He wasn't told no, but he wasn't told yes, or go either.

[NateHowe]

1. We do not know the reasons for the Priesthood not being available to black people for a period of time. No matter what we may speculate, those reasons have not been officially stated by the Lord or any modern Prophet.

2. If the revelation granting the Priesthood to black men were a popularly motivated response to the Civil Rights Movement, it would have happened years earlier. By 1978, much of the civil rights progress of the 60s was well-established, even taken for granted in some ways. The revelation was a result of inspiration, not pressure.

3. Since its very early days, the Church has been a proponent of racial equality. One reason they were driven from Missouri and other places where they settled was their anti-slavery view. At a period of history when Native Americans were considered savage animals by most others, early Mormons saw them as part of the House of Israel, brothers and sisters who needed the truth of Jesus Christ as much as the white man. The Church is not a discriminatory organization.

[Elphaba]

Elphaba i did not know that. You are more knowledgeable than i am. I never heard that before. But if God knew people would argue with him i could see him waiting on giving a revelation. People around the prophet would have said the prophet got a false revelation. So i could see the Lord waiting for the leadership to be receptive. it would be better than wasting time giving a revelation the other leader's would blame on man, or the Devil.

Answers from God come in the form of yes, no, go or pause. David O. McKay sound's to me like he was told to pause. He wasn't told no, but he wasn't told yes, or go either.

Hi Dale,

Now that I have made this statement I'm going to check my references to make sure that what I have said is correct. I would feel terrible if I am wrong. I'll let you know if I am right, or if I'm manifesting the first stages of Alzheimer's.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Hi Dale,

Well, I am glad I went back to check my references because I had the story wrong.

Prior to President McKay it was thought the ban against those with a black heritage could not hold the priesthood.

President McKay was the first president to question that assumption, which was extremely significant. He believed it was not doctrinal. The following is an excerpt from the book: “Neither White or Black, Armand Mauss and Lester E. Bush, “Mormon Scholars Confront Race Issues in a Universal Church”:

<snip>

David O. McKay became president of the Church early in 1951. He was to preside over the stormiest two decades in the entire history of the Mormon-black controversy. In retrospect, President McKay would seem to have been an almost inevitable harbinger of change, not only because of the civil rights movement emerging ... in the nation itself, but even more so because of his own personal values. As early as 1924, Apostle McKay had attacked anti-Negro prejudice and the "pseudo-Christians" who held it; and, in a widely republished personal letter written in 1947, he had shown himself remarkably free of the traditional notions about marks, curses, and the like, referring instead to faith in God's eventual justice and mercy.

Close personal friends, as well as members of his own immediate family, have affirmed that from early in his presidency, McKay believed that the restrictions on blacks were based not on "doctrine" but on "practice." One might well take the inference from such statements, that he considered the way clear to a change in the policy by simple administrative fiat, rather than by special revelation. Why, if the reports [p.151]of those close to him are true, no such change came during his administration, remains one of the unanswered questions of this period.

<snip>

Let us take the traditional "Negro doctrines" as a case in point: These seem to have begun at the level of folklore in the earliest days of the Church, imported to a large extent from the traditional racist lore in Christianity more generally. It is not clear from surviving records how often these doctrines received authoritative endorsement by church leaders during the lifetime of Joseph Smith, but there is little reason to believe they ever became official. By 1850, though, they seem to have been elevated to the official level, if only because President Brigham Young taught them in his official capacity. Most of them were still officially embraced by First Presidency letters in the late 1940s and widely promulgated at the authoritative and folk levels as well. There they now survive despite withdrawal of official endorsement.

So, Dale, please accept my apology and my correction.

Elphaba

[Dale]

Elphaba-That's interesting information.

[Moksha]

Here is a podcast that is marvelous in terms of presenting a detailed and accurate portrayal of Blacks and the Priesthood.

Darius Gray, Margaret Young and John Dehlin are excellent on the podcast. Toward the end, you can palpably understand their long forbearance and hope. It is long but well worth it.

Blacks and the LDS Priesthood

[Shell72]

But if God knew people would argue with him i could see him waiting on giving a revelation. .

Shouldn't people have known all along not to argue with God?