Disciplining Children

[Traveler]

This is not a thread of weather to spank or not it is about consistent and effective discipline as parents teach and train children.

In a recent discussion with a friend they said that they have noticed something quite interesting in the parents that use non-spanking methods of discipline. One of the more popular methods of non-spanking is what is called the time out method. My friend stated that in his family that time outs ended up to be more of a punishment of parents than children, especially if there are 3 are more children and only one parent available for the discipline and oversight.

They also noted that because of the hassle that parents face with time out that they tend to attempt to threaten discipline rather than discipline. Example:

Child: climbs on coffee table and starts jumping up and down.

Parent: Stop that or I’ll put you in time out.

Child: continues what they are doing.

Parent: Do you want to go to time out?

Child: Continues

Parent: Goes and pulls child off table – Did you not hear me? I said to stop that or you’ll be in time out!

Child: Pulls away from parent watches them for a bit until the parent returns to other duties then climbs back on coffee table and starts jumping.

One of the mistakes my wife and I made in disciplining our children was that when they misbehaved we gave them chores to do. The result is, that every one of my children, that are now grown adults with families of their own, thinks chores are punishment and dislike helping their spouses. They are getting over it but having difficulty.

What are effective methods used by member of the forum to train and discipline children? Do you think your children are models of good disciplined behavior? In other words do your methods work? I have some thought but I thought I would allow everybody else to criticize something other than my ideas for a while, first.

The Traveler

[Winnie G]

When my children were small I was given the best parenting method and it is the biggest mistake parents don’t use to this day.

Act like you have springs on your bum and get up and do something about it!

Don’t say your going to do something and not act on it.

I learned that counting to three and moving aggressively fast by two made my children stop what they were doing and moving out of my way faster then any useless threat I watched my friends make.

To this day at the ages of 30- 22 if I start counting boy do they move!

None of my children ever remember me hitting them in any way.

I am sure I have done it, that’s what was done in those days but I must have not done it very much if none of can remember me doing it.

I did and still do have what my kids call a hicky smacking spoon. (Wooden spoon)

They have seen me use it but never on them.

If you came in to my home with a hicky whether you were my teenager / adult child you got it!

I cornered a friend’s teenage son once in my dinning room for his girlfriends hicky.

He later called his mother to complain that I beat him with a wooden spoon, his mother laughed so load he hung up on her.

To this day my children tell their friends about their mothers vicious attack’s on their friends.

My children have never been so dumb as to give hickys or receive them. I told them it was a matter of respect for the persons involved.

So get off you bums and do something!

[Elphaba]

In a recent discussion with a friend they said that they have noticed something quite interesting in the parents that use non-spanking methods of discipline. One of the more popular methods of non-spanking is what is called the time out method. My friend stated that in his family that time outs ended up to be more of a punishment of parents than children, especially if there are 3 are more children and only one parent available for the discipline and oversight.

They also noted that because of the hassle that parents face with time out that they tend to attempt to threaten discipline rather than discipline. Example:

Child: climbs on coffee table and starts jumping up and down.

Parent: Stop that or I’ll put you in time out.

Child: continues what they are doing.

Parent: Do you want to go to time out?

Child: Continues

Parent: Goes and pulls child off table – Did you not hear me? I said to stop that or you’ll be in time out!

Child: Pulls away from parent watches them for a bit until the parent returns to other duties then climbs back on coffee table and starts jumping.

Time Outs are a very effective disciplinary tool. The problem is when the parent is not committed to using time outs, as your anecdotal stories demonstrate. I have seen first hand the type of parents you describe, and in my opinion, the parent actually does more harm by saying he/she is going to put the child in a time out and then does not do so when the chid continues the bad behavior. The children learn there are no consequences to poor behavior, and as they grow into adulthood, this does not serve them well.

I just wanted to make sure "Time Out" was not made to look like the problem in the sample you provided. It is a very effective tool and worked well for me. However, it takes a total commitmet from all parents of the chld.

Having said that, I think it would be exhausting if you have more than one child to take care of if you were on your own. I never had more than one at a time as my children are seven years apart. It's easy for me to sit back and judge parents of multiple children by saying 'You have to be totally commited to "Time Outs," when the truth is I strongly doubt I could have done it myself. I don't know anything about anyone else's experience other than my own.

Elphaba

[Heather]

I'm a big fan of Love and Logic, which is all about giving kids choices and having them accept responsibility.

[Winnie G]

Amen Heather

Love and Logic

And Choices, how will they ever learn if not given choices and accept responsibility that comes with them.

[NeuroTypical]

Love and Logic. Absolutely. I love that philosophy. There's just something so cool about watching my kids put themselves in time out until they calm down enough to behave.

[Elphaba]

When I said I successfully used Time Outs I meant from when they were 2 to 4 years old. After that I really didn't ever need any form of discipline as they were very easy children behaviorally. I was very very lucky.

They, on the other hand, got Mommy Dearest Lite.

Elphaba

[pushka]

When my eldest child was 3/4 years old my husband and I used time out and just had to endure her shouting and crying in her room till she got the message that we weren't gonna change our minds. I very rarely smacked my kids, and if I did it was a quick tap rather than a real smack, so no harm was ever done.

As my kids matured I began to reason with them when they misbehaved, as Heather suggested, love and logic and as Winnie suggested, giving them the choice to behave better.

Now my kids are aged 18 and 14 and I've repeatedly been told, over the years, how they are a credit to me and so well behaved! Of course, they are better behaved at other people's houses than at their own, but we get along okay :)

[Winnie G]

“better behaved at other people's houses” LOL of course they are their kids,

Mine did the same thing.

The odd thing about me is that when I go over to a friends house who is raising the next generation felons her boys behave better the minute I walk though the door.

These kids know what is expected when Im around yet act like serial killers to their parents.

I have never watched this children at any time but my youngest son has watched them because none else will. His experience was one of letting them beat the hack out of each other to their surprise. After that they were angle to him.

[sgallan]

I'm a big fan of Love and Logic, which is all about giving kids choices and having them accept responsibility.

Exactly. Kid is jumping on the table the kid has a choice.... either stop jumping on the table, or go to time out. If the kids keeps jumping then they have made their choice.

[Canuck Mormon]

I've found that time-outs work, most of the time. But you have to stick to them. My son knows that I'm serious about my punishments, and I give him plenty of warnings. I will admit that there have been times when he got spanked, but it was only one spank and then a 20 minute time out. He only had to experience it 2-3 times then he got the message that we were serious about it. I haven't spanked him in 5 years, but there have been plenty of time outs, groundings, and such. I think that you have to evolve your discipline as your child grows.

Take it for what it's worth. 2 canadian cents.

[Traveler]

Thanks to most of the responses. Personally I am a believer in incentives. In essence I do not believe that anything can happen without an incentive. One of the mistakes in disciplining children is not taking time to recognize the incentive that is driving the behavior to which you intend to discipline.

There are in essence two kinds of incentives – positive and negative. Both can be effective and one or the other may be more effective according circumstances and the child. If any parent intends to modify the behavior of a child (be the child 2 or 18) the parent must be willing to bring to bare more incentive to change the behavior than the child current has to maintain the behavior.

Most parents with an IQ above room temperature are capable of recognizing that in many cases the inconstant threat of a action is not much incentive. Less recognized is the possibility that the incentive they are pursuing is not really sufficient and few parents can handle changing what they are doing according to the specific child. They often are so arrogant that they think their current way is the only way and will not consider any other possibility. In other words – we often fail to recognize that what works for one child may not work for another child motivated by different incentives. Also is the failure to recognize the likely possibility that a child will change and grow out of current incentives – which is another way of saying that what use to work doesn’t anymore.

Perhaps some posters would like to respond with discipline actions that they have used that at the time and place proved to be very effective. I have a few – if anyone is interested.

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

Perhaps some posters would like to respond with discipline actions that they have used that at the time and place proved to be very effective. I have a few – if anyone is interested.

If I understand your question correctly, a number of posters have already answered your question. Is there something else you're looking for?

Elphaba

[the_jason]

Personally I am a believer in incentives. In essence I do not believe that anything can happen without an incentive. [/quote]

The incentive is being allowed to live in my house. I do not negotiate with my kids. There are rules of our household, and they are not up for discussion. You act a certain way, you get punished. I do not agree with spanking for the most part. There are times when it's necessary, such as when my son hits he gets his hand slapped. When my daughter uses mean words her mouth gets slapped. It's used to teach a principle, not as generic discipline.

Discipline has to be carried out according to each case, and MUST fit the crime. There also must be explanation as to why a punishment is enforced. "Because I said so" is not a valid reason and teaches the child nothing.

[pushka]

The reasoning I do with my kids isn't a way of compromising if they don't agree with my 'rules' (I don't really keep a rule book as such, the kids ask me if they can do a certain thing, or tell me they're doing it and we negotiate the pros and cons of their intended actions). Thankfully they don't often throw hissy fits or any other kind of tantrums, and if they choose to sulk over a situation I just give them enough time to think about it, and then go and talk to them, pointing out the benefits of behaving in certain ways...I try not to issue negative incentives..

[pushka]

I tried to edit the above, but the egg timer was taking too long..

Anyway, I meant to add that during our 'negotiations' we arrange times to return home or other 'rules' if and when appropriate...this tends to work for us..

[Elgama]

ok so far I have yet to spank my children and yesterday had you asked me they were the perfect models of good behaviour today they were little hooligans and Iam questioning myself lol

For me discipline is very little to do with punishment its about teaching, I use timeouts for displays of temper basically the times when as adults I want them to take 'timeout; Discipline for me began at birth with a specific method of parenting - I was impressed by the Contiuum Concept at 15 - I coslept, introduced my children to lots of people as tiny babies, took them everywhere with me (even business meetings), carried them in slings, I did not handle them very gently, I expected good behaviour, I also learned what was appropriate for their age, for example just because my son wakes 3 times a night at year old does not make him bad, just his parents sleep deprived lol - so we tweak our home to cope with it

Discipline in my house includes having regular bedtimes, a good walk outside everyday no matter what the weather if its hurricanes etc then bouncing on the bed is permitted. Good food is important little sugar and no additives. Setting an example as parents for example parents say please, thank you, sorry etc to the children, try to talk in quiet tones, leaving notes or phoning home when we will be late. Having clear and easy rules to follow concerning tidying etc. My kids know I will act and I use logical consequences if youdon't get undressed to get in the bath you can go in fully clothed, if you don't pack your toys before we leave the house they don't come with us, if you lose them outside the house tough, don't want to wear your coat - fine you can go cold. (I do usually pack it in my bag in that case - and things like shoes), if you make me late for the bus you can miss your fun things this week etc, if you go out the garden without permission you are grounded, if a toy causes problems or is not picked up I bin it. If it is a regular misbehaviour I look at it and work out why or talk to Ellie we have a formal meeting with an agenda and post the results on the living room door. If I can remove a problem by a simple act I do. We also have regular parent councils and Family Home Evening, spend time doing things with the children. We also encourage independence in dressing themselves etc.

My children at 1 and 4 also get pocket money Gabey gets £1 and Ellie £4 we use that to teach tithing and savings. If Ellie wants extra things she has to earn them with extra chores. For example next week she is going to Starlight Express she earned it by drinking 100 glasses of water - she is now learning to write and we are using stickers when she practices to earn tickets to go and see the Gruffalo.

And yes I negotiate to a point for example there was a period of time Ellie was ignoring me and I was screaming and Richard was getting annoyed - she agreed to work hard to pay attention if we spoke to her nicely as she said she ignored her because we were treating her badly (I had to admit she was right and apologise lol), she gets complete say over what she dresses in, I don't buy her clothes without consulting her, she chooses her own glasses, bed linen etc I tell her what we can afford and she can choose within that, we involve her when we choose days out and where to go on holiday she doesn't get final say but she gets input in that and for example if we are choosing wallpaper for the living room we pick ones we like and she can help choose within the selection. Whilst we pay for the house its also my kids home.

Some people I should add struggle with my kids (most don't), they struggle with children who have confidence and can make their own decisions as young as 1 or 4 - however my daughter;s teachers think she is fantastic, staff in shops and the library love her and she has confidence to talk to all sorts of people outside the home. In someways raising hyper independant kids has its drawbacks but they are mostly well behaved and easy to parent/

-Charley

[Traveler]

I thought I would add once when I did a good job of discipline. When my oldest son was a teenager and having problems in dealing with his family he, on one occasion became angry screamed at my wife stormed to his bed room and slammed the door.

I then went and got some tools and removed the door from his bedroom. He asked we what I was doing and I answered that the door to his room belonged to me and when he could convince me that he would treat my door with a little more respect I would consider letting him use it again.

When he finely asked for the door back – I asked how would I understand that he would not slam it anymore – even when he was very angry.

In later years he admitted to me that that was one on the great changing events of his life. He has a rather strong personality (temper) and he said that this (and other events) convinced him that he should learn to control his temper.

I tell this story because at the time I really want to take that kid “to the wood shed” but the spirit seemed to whisper to try something else.

The Traveler

[pushka]

It's good to hear that, with a little thought, we can often find alternatives to spanking kids for 'bad' behaviour.

Charley, I loved reading about the methods you use in your household, and am pleased to read that your kids are growing up confidently as a result of them! :)

Btw Charley, have you had to change your username?

[MorningStar]

I have three little boys and time-outs haven't been very effective as far as changing their behavior, but it gets them out of certain situations for a while. I try to let the punishment fit the crime and we will take away privileges that actually matter to them. Standing in the corner for 5 minutes just isn't a big deal to them and they would rather do that than not get to play Xbox for a week.

When my kids hit, they get a time-out, then they have to say sorry and give their brothers a hug and kiss, and then they have to do something nice for the other like read a book or play a game the other likes. I want them to learn that it's not worth all the trouble to hit - It's going to take a long time to make up for it rather than a silly 5 minute time-out.

My oldest went through a spitting stage. We tried time-out several times and it didn't work. One day he spat in my youngest son's hair and it suddenly hit me what the perfect consequence was. Make him wash his hair. He screams like a banshee when you wash his hair no matter who does it. They were in the bathroom while I was folding laundry and my youngest was screaming, "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!" while my oldest was yelling, "HOLD STILL!!!!!" He never spat on him again.

My mom's grandpa had a funny way of dealing with spitting (he had a bunch of boys). He would make them go outside and spit on a fence post until it was drenched and when they wanted to be done, he made them keep doing it. They hated spitting after that.

When my second son was born, he was a very light sleeper and my oldest would wake him up so he could play with him. One day he looked right at me as I said, "Do not touch that door." He did it anyway and just the sound of the knob being touched woke my baby up (this kid would be awake for 12 hours straight during the day and it was hard for me to take care of myself). He knew I would get him up, but this time I made him sit with his back against the door until his brother fell back to sleep. He couldn't stand the sound of him crying. Neither could I, so luckily it took that one time. He kept inching away from the door and I would say, "Get your back against that door!" He would ask, "Will you pick him up now?" "Nope." I tried time-outs so many times for that situation and that was what worked.

Parenting involves a lot of creativity and trial and error. Then you have another kids and it starts all over again. They're all so different.

I get lots of compliments about how well behaved my kids are so either I'm lucky or I'm doing something right. Their teachers are very pleased with their behavior, people in the grocery store stop to tell me how amazed they are, but it's at home where they really test the limits. I think they just get bored. It would be so nice if we had a backyard to play in. At the grocery store, I involve them by asking them to find items for me and put them in the cart. They think that's lots of fun. I think a good amount of the time, kids get in trouble because they're bored. When my kids act up, I have them help me a lot more around the house.