under the charter of freedom act

[the_jason]

You're right, and if that happened and I did not like it, I could choose to live in another country. Otherwise I'd be bound by that law. Fortunately, the law exists as it should and everyone is required to live by it.

And by the way, God's laws trump human laws.

[a-train]

I would place the intrusion of the masses into the relationships of free individuals via tax and property laws under Tocqueville's 'tyranny of the majority'. With that, it becomes the obligation of government to protect the individual liberty in the realm of the right to peaceably assemble and the right of property of all persons whether outnumbered in their views or otherwise. Thus, the majority rule should not apply in this case one way or another. It is the flaw in the tax code and property law that needs adjustment, not the definition of marriage.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Governments (societies) legislate morality all the time. It is immoral to drive too fast and endanger lives, so we criminalize speeding. It is immoral to subject others to dangerous 2nd-hand smoke, so we regulate smoking in public areas. Homosexual couples do not constitute a family, in the perspective of the vast majority of Americans, therefore same-sex marriage will not be officially recognized by government. Agency does not = license.

[prisonchaplain]

By the way, homosexual activity is immoral and sinful in my faith. If agency is the issue here, why must my children be taught, using government monies, that this behavior is natural, in-born, and must be accepted?

[a-train]

Governments (societies) legislate morality all the time.

We are therefore the subjects of a serious double-standard. Fornication and adultery are terrible immoralities left untouched by this government.

By the way, homosexual activity is immoral and sinful in my faith. If agency is the issue here, why must my children be taught, using government monies, that this behavior is natural, in-born, and must be accepted?

Another perfect example of why the Department of Education needs abolishing.

-a-train

[Moksha]

Ok this is it, under the Charter of Freedom’s Act, Gay or straight, you are just as much a solder as the next guy. Then why can't Washington say ok here it is live with it?

Perhaps the Charter of Freedoms Act disallows self-righteousness, or else Canada needs all the good soldiers it can get. Anyway you look at it, those Maple Leaf guys seem to have a better policy on this one.

[prisonchaplain]

We are therefore the subjects of a serious double-standard. Fornication and adultery are terrible immoralities left untouched by this government.

I've never been impressed by consistency arguments. Either gay marriage is something society wants to recognize and value, or it isn't. We have definitely decided that homosexual activity is NOT something we wish to criminalize.

Another perfect example of why the Department of Education needs abolishing. -a-train

I would probably agree--but I'm not sure that the Dept. of Ed. has anything to do with kids being ready Sally Has Two Mommies.

[prisonchaplain]

We are therefore the subjects of a serious double-standard. Fornication and adultery are terrible immoralities left untouched by this government.

I'm not sure I understand. Government does not recognize those couples living in sin as being married--well, unless they apply under 'common law marriage.' Likewise, there is no criminalization of homosexual activity--simply an unwillingness for government to recognize or encourage such.

Another perfect example of why the Department of Education needs abolishing.

-a-train

While I might agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure it's relevent to local school districts infusing homosexual themes into curricula.

[a-train]

I've never been impressed by consistency arguments. Either gay marriage is something society wants to recognize and value, or it isn't. We have definitely decided that homosexual activity is NOT something we wish to criminalize.

Recognition and value cannot be mandated by a government authority. That is the trouble. We have a government that takes our economic liberties and allows us to keep some of them if we do what is considered moral. I personally see attempts to extricate members of our society from immorality as futile when made by government. I am more interested in removing the tragedy of the deprivation of economic and property liberties from ALL Americans, rather holding homosexual couples to the flame.

I not only agree that homosexual couples should carry no additional tax burden or property rights deprivation than heterosexual couples or single individuals, but I advocate a total removal of such oppression from ALL Americans.

Certainly the Dept. of Education doesn't enforce the use of books with gay themes, for now. We are losing our controls over our local schools to big government and what will happen if a generation from now we have a majority supporting such teaching? Americans should keep their power over local education.

-a-train

[Winnie G]

First Selek

As an American who’s father was a life long US soldier in three war’s and finely died during Vietnam. I want to reach though and slap you!

:disclaimer:You are a typical self absorbed chest pounding US is best American.

How dare you say:

“This differs from the Canadian forces which are largely a cardboard army designed for home defence and photo ops.”

What makes you the expert?????

I mean heaven forbid someone like me might know different. By the way Canadian soldiers were in Vietnam and every stinking hell hole from the Golan heights, Gulf War to Yugoslavia (Husband)

Oh that’s right Afghanistan! I have worked and lived on just about every Canadian army base form BC to Nova Scotia. My last base Shilo Manitoba will be emptying out every able body soldier along with CFB Edmonton Albertaon the next tour to Afghanistan next month, so I do think cardboard cuts outs are going with these 1000’s of men and women in to combat with the Taliban.

This thread has nothing to do with Canadian army bashing / US is best. It is why does some institution cant get over the whole guy thing, this is not marriage it’s the “don’t ask don’t tell” rule witch is homophobic. 17 years ago the Canadian army started to mind its own business and none has been found jumping a fellow soldier in a fox hole yet.

<FONT size=5><B><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

[selek]

Actually, Winnie-

This was precisely the reaction I was hoping for.

YOU came in with an unfounded and inflammatory accusation intended to stir up trouble.

I replied in kind, and you flew off the deep end.

Picking on self-righteous social progressives is so terribly easy......

[Canuck Mormon]

Selek, what are you talking about? There was no accusation in the OP. Winnie was just asking a question. Why is it that the Canadian Forces allow Homosexuals while the US says "Don't tell us, we don't want to know"? That was the question at hand. I never read your post because obviously it contained things that were against the rules. But from the quote in Winnie's post I can tell what you think of the Canadian Millitary.

[selek]

Actually, CM- reread Winnie's initial post.

Her premise was that everything in Canada's military is wonderful because the government has advocated open sexual perversion and forced people of conscience to go along with the charade, and then wonders why Washington can't do the same.

Yes, the question was there, but it was surrounded by a lot of verbage which alludes that the US government is doing something wrong by not endorsing dysfunction- and forcing the rest of us to go along.

And that is inflammatory.

I'd also note that everything is NOT hunky-dory in Canada's military, with aging equipment, low enlistment rates, and the disbanding of a premier battalion(?) because of rampant human rights abuses (within and without) and a rogue ideology.

To be perfectly honest, I really don't have a problem with the Canadian military per se, but Winnie's assertion that she wasn't trying to pick a fight is laughable on its face.

[Canuck Mormon]

Actually, CM- reread Winnie's initial post.

Her premise was that everything in Canada's military is wonderful because the government has advocated open sexual perversion and forced people of conscience to go along with the charade, and then wonders why Washington can't do the same.

Yes, the question was there, but it was surrounded by a lot of verbage which alludes that the US government is doing something wrong by not endorsing dysfunction- and forcing the rest of us to go along.

And that is inflammatory.

I'd also note that everything is NOT hunky-dory in Canada's military, with aging equipment, low enlistment rates, and the disbanding of a premier battalion(?) because of rampant human rights abuses (within and without) and a rogue ideology.

To be perfectly honest, I really don't have a problem with the Canadian military per se, but Winnie's assertion that she wasn't trying to pick a fight is laughable on its face.

Maybe I'm missing something. I don't see where she says the military is wonderful because the government said gays are ok. I see her saying that there isn't a big deal about it. Everyone up here knows that our military is in deep trouble with the aging equipment, low pay, minimal recruiting. What she was asking is "Why is it such a big deal?"

[PentiumInside]

I worked very closely with the Canadian military in Iraq as well as in training, had a great time, would work with them anyday.

Gays are ready for the military in the US but the miltary isnt quite ready to work with them, and you can't force it out of some "ethical agenda". Maybe one day it won't matter, but for now it does, so deal with it !

[Moksha]

Maybe I'm missing something. I don't see where she says the military is wonderful because the government said gays are ok.

The trouble is you are only reading what was written and not what Selek intepreted it to mean.

[Winnie G]

Selek the Canadian Military does not

“advocated open sexual perversion and forced people of conscience to go along with the charade, and then wonders why Washington can't do the same.”

They just stepped out of the freedom to live ones life.

A lot of people felt that way about Segregation of the races “people of conscience” fire hosed those who saw it differently then as well. Things chage and so can Ignorance and fear.

The whole deal of guy or straight is not going to go away and the government should step out of the debate.

“I'd also note that everything is NOT hunky-dory in Canada's military, with aging equipment, low enlistment rates, and the disbanding of a premier battalion(?) because of rampant human rights abuses (within and without) and a rogue ideology

.

Selek that "premier battalion" was in need for being disbanded it was the battalion on my base before I met my husband.

You take the hardest job and train them in to the hardest people who are sent in to do the hardest job none else will do and you might as well train a pack of out of control Rambo’s. They had the highest rate of alcoholism, suicide and abuse.

Each tour was worse then the last so the battalion was disbanded and the men despised. Those men adjusted and have done well since. At lest someone saw a resolution and fixed it. They made them what they were and handled it.

As far as low pay goes your wrong agin we cleared$ 4.500 dollars a month after housing. That’s not bad I say for hunky-dory.

Canadians low enlistment rates are due to a higher paying civilian jobs. My husband would make four times that pay now as a civilian. Canada is replacing the aging equipment. Oddly enough waging war is not a #1 priority.

Can you stay on topic by the way, we can.

Canadian Military does not “advocated open sexual perversion

I hear fear and homophobia.

Im going to ask you what I asked on of my eldist sons, are you scared of being jumped by some homosexual when he spouted such Ignorance and fear.

Im not calling you names I am calling you to reflection as to were this comes from.???

[selek]

Selek the Canadian Military does not

They just stepped out of the freedom to live ones life.

A lot of people felt that way about Segregation of the races “people of conscience” fire hosed those who saw it differently then as well. Things chage and so can Ignorance and fear.

Thank you for proving that the permissive left cannot discuss homosexual advocacy without playing the bigotry card. I am neither ignorant nor fearful, Winnie, so I'll thank you for dropping the asinine accusation.

The Canadian government has indeed advocated sexual perversion by pretending that such behavior is both acceptable and normal. Such a pretense is a lie on its face.

Second, the Canadian government is prosecuting Christian ministers for "hate crimes" for having the temerity to condemn behavior that is explicitly and irrevocably sinful. That is the very definition of using government coersion to force people of conscience to go along with their lie.

If a Colonel in the Canadian Air Force publicly stated that homosexuality is a perversion, what do you think the consequences would be?

That you insist on turning a blind eye to it doesn't make it any less true.

Also, there is a profound difference between homosexual behavior and racial characteristics. One is a chosen behavior, the other is an innate characteristic which was used as an excuse to discriminate. You can choose to behave sinfully, but you cannot choose to be black, white, green, or polka dot.

The attempt to conflate immoral behavior with a civil struggle to end immoral behavior is both disingenuous and ultimately immoral. The two do not conflate, and such a ploy is a cynical attempt to avoid serious discussion by painting the opposition as bigoted.

The whole deal of guy or straight is not going to go away and the government should step out of the debate. .

Selek that "premier battalion" was in need for being disbanded it was the battalion on my base before I met my husband.

You take the hardest job and train them in to the hardest people who are sent in to do the hardest job none else will do and you might as well train a pack of out of control Rambo’s. They had the highest rate of alcoholism, suicide and abuse.

Each tour was worse then the last so the battalion was disbanded and the men despised. Those men adjusted and have done well since. At lest someone saw a resolution and fixed it. They made them what they were and handled it.

I don't know that we're talking about the same battalion. The one that comes to my mind was originally organized as a premier show-piece of the Canadian military and was ultimately disbanded because it was a hot-bed of neo-Nazi propoganda and recruiting.

As far as low pay goes your wrong agin we cleared$ 4.500 dollars a month after housing. That’s not bad I say for hunky-dory.

Canadians low enlistment rates are due to a higher paying civilian jobs. My husband would make four times that pay now as a civilian. Canada is replacing the aging equipment. Oddly enough waging war is not a #1 priority.

Can you stay on topic by the way, we can.

Winnie you contradict yourself. I don't care if you make ten million dollars a day- if a civilian doing a comparable job is making four times as much, the military pay is by definition, low.

While you chide me about staying on topic, I, in turn, rather suggest you review a good course in basic logic.

I hear fear and homophobia.

Then you'd best stop projecting- because you're not hearing it from me. Stop playing cliched accusations in lieu of substance. You cannot dismiss me as homophobic or ignorant, because neither is the case. Name calling such as you insist on employing is the last refuge of someone who cannot articulate logically.

Im going to ask you what I asked on of my eldist sons, are you scared of being jumped by some homosexual when he spouted such Ignorance and fear.

No- I'm not. And I'll thank you once again to stop with the name calling. It is not ignorance or fear- it is a recognition that the behavior you are so desperate to vindicate is explicitly immoral.

Im not calling you names I am calling you to reflection as to were this comes from.???

This statement is intellectually dishonest, Winnie. You've called me ignorant, homophobic, fearful, and (to paraphrase) a chest-beating, America is best/first, jingoist.

I might cop to the last, but the others don't apply.

Finally, I have a request. Would you mind sticking to standard formatting instead of random fonts?

When one is quoting a previous post, the non-standard fonts/sizes make it very difficult to properly format a response in kind.

Thank you.

[prisonchaplain]

I've only skimmed through the last several posts, but would note that secular governments are certainly not obligated to grant specific protections to classes of people who engage in any particular behavior--certainly not behavior that most religious systems deem immoral. Sadly, on this particular topic--"homosexual rights"--those on the pro side have often proven the most intolerant. Anyone opposed to granted group minority protection to homosexuals is deemed a homophobe, and is blackballed from civil discourse.

[Winnie G]

It just gets down to weather guy or stright does not make anyone less of a soldier.

separation of church at state should stay that way,

[FrankJL]

This differs from the Canadian forces which are largely a cardboard army designed for home defence and photo ops.

The greatest challenge the Canadian military has faced in the last thirty years has come from either their own legislature or a handful of stray Japanese whalers, take your pick.

While I haven't taken the time to read this whole thread, I just wanted to quickly respond to this.

When I was in Afghanistan I worked with a lot of our coalition partners, and the 3PPCLI that we worked with was one of most well trained and disciplined units that I worked with over there.

I also knew Nathan Smith one of those killed in the tragic fratricide incident at Tarnak Farm.

[Moksha]

Thank you for proving that the permissive left cannot discuss homosexual advocacy without playing the bigotry card.

This statement is intellectually dishonest, Winnie. You've called me ignorant, homophobic, fearful, and (to paraphrase) a chest-beating, America is best/first, jingoist.

Dueling quotes.

[kona0197]

Funny thing that we are discussing homosexuality on a Mormon forum...