Another example of incompetent American education.

[Fiannan]

Mom: Bullies drove boy to kill himself - CNN.com

While I am not sure about this specific case I have to say my general impression of American school administrators is very,very poor. Most seem to be washed up teachers /coaches who can't handle the classroom so they spend a couple of summers in school to get an administrator's license so they can be get out of teaching, but rule their little kingdoms.

Why do kids carry knives and guns to school? To protect themselves in most cases. And what do the kids do who are outsiders (who don't fit into the artificial and psychotic lifestyle of modern American education evolved from psychological theories better applied to correctional institutions than places of learning)? These kids suffer, commit suicide or go on rampages.

If only all parents with kids picked on in schools would carefully document the cases, document their appeals to the administrative morons, and then, if their kids continues to be picked on, bring lawsuits up against these schools you would see things change. The American education system has some excellent teachers, some pathetic administrators and is anything but well. The administrators across the USA will only take note when money is at stake -- and bad publicity since most admins are more concerned about good publicity (like having good write-ups in the sports page about their sports teams) than the welfare of the kids. It's time the US followed examples of countries like Britain and Sweden and take action against bullies -- and admins who ignore the problem as well.

[Moksha]

This is a very important subject and a concern to all parents. Thank you for posting it.

[Dr T]

I have a hard time saying "It's the schools!" There are other important factors to consider as well.

[the_jason]

How about holding the kids and their parents accountable? Schools are required to educate. The burden of teaching morals rests in the home. You're probably right in that there is probably more that schools could and should be doing, but that's not their primary responsibility. If it were, our schools would be more like prisons than educational facilities. Everyone's quick to point fingers when bad things happen. The problem with pointing a finger at someone is that there are 4 fingers pointing back at you.

[MorningStar]

I just saw this show about cyber bullying on PBS. It was so sad. This man was talking about how his son killed himself after being bullied online, then later he found some site that talks about death, how to make a noose, etc. His dad wanted to know why he killed himself so he got on with his username and met the boy who encouraged him to go through with it. It made me sick to my stomach to see this story. The dad said his biggest mistake was letting his son have a computer in his room.

My son is only in Kindergarten and I let the teacher know when he feels bullied by other kids. I don't know if he's playing a part in it, but I try to get the whole story. I volunteered in his class today and I witnessed this one kid he was complaining about shoving another kid into the edge of the table because he was "squishing him". He looked kind of shocked when I chewed him out for it, then I let the teacher know (she was setting up the computer lab). Then he told this poor kid he wasn't going to be his friend anymore because he wasn't playing the way he wanted him to. The teacher said, "We just had a talk about that at 9:15 this morning and he did it again???" My son comes home frequently saying no one likes him at school, but I think the real issue is how this kid treats him. He's a pretty aggressive kid. I know, it's just Kindergarten, but I think this needs to be nipped in the bud early.

[MorningStar]

How about holding the kids and their parents accountable? Schools are required to educate. The burden of teaching morals rests in the home. You're probably right in that there is probably more that schools could and should be doing, but that's not their primary responsibility. If it were, our schools would be more like prisons than educational facilities. Everyone's quick to point fingers when bad things happen. The problem with pointing a finger at someone is that there are 4 fingers pointing back at you.

The sad thing is, some parents just won't tolerate anyone saying anything negative about their child. Instead they say, "My child would never do that!" Or "He's only 5!" I was at McDonald's playland with my sister-in-law one day and this two-year-old was running around hitting people while the mom did nothing. Yeah, he's only two, but why let him do it? My sister-in-law finally said something and the mom stormed out saying, "How much damage could a two-year-old do?" Grr.

[Moksha]

The schools are the ones responsible for creating a safe environment while the students are there. They are the ones who need to enforce a get tough policy on bullying. No need to bemoan how parents should raise their kids - that cannot be affected by public policy. What we can do insist that our children have a safe and bully free environment in which to learn.

[prisonchaplain]

Bullying is a huge problem, and there are no easy solutions. School administrators are highly educated, poorly paid, and have a difficult job. They deserve our prayers and support, not our arm chair quarterbacking--IMHO, of course.

[MorningStar]

My son's school has this "Peace Builder" program, which I really appreciate and they have a song about avoiding put downs, noticing hurts, etc. I think most of the kids will come out of there all right. :)

[the_jason]

I just saw this show about cyber bullying on PBS. It was so sad. This man was talking about how his son killed himself after being bullied online, then later he found some site that talks about death, how to make a noose, etc. His dad wanted to know why he killed himself so he got on with his username and met the boy who encouraged him to go through with it. It made me sick to my stomach to see this story. The dad said his biggest mistake was letting his son have a computer in his room.

It's sad that this kid died, but it's pretty lame that he let someone online influence him. If you're bullied online, don't go online. Simple. It's not nearly the same as being bullied at school.

Moksha, I agree that schools should provide a safe environment, but if parents did their jobs there would be less need to provide a safe environment. A lot of parents today are lazy. They want someone else to teach their kids right and wrong, then blame them when something goes wrong. We need fewer lazy parents and more who take responsibility for the rearing of their children. I swear, there oughtta be a law....

[kona0197]

Just noticed Jason's avatar is a picture of our Temple here in Oregon...

[Elphaba]

I was severely physically bullied. I was also emotionally bullied, called names, humiliated, that sort of thing.

It never, ever occurred to me to "tell" a teacher or anyone. I'm sure that is because it was happening at home as well. I did mention it to my mother once, but she was in her own survival mode at the time, and just was not able to come to my aid. When I mention this I am NOT blaming her. We have made our peace for those days, and I am very aware of why she wasn't able to help at the time.

Anyway, I am very very glad to hear about the awareness of bullying, and the programs not only for the kids, but the parents and the school personnel.

At the same time, because of my own experiences, I can't help thinking that nothing can really stop it.

Bullies are so cruel, and while for years we've heard they really don't have any self-esteem, newer studies have shown they actually have loads of self-esteem. They have no problem thinking they are entitled to being a bully, and getting away with whatever he/she can. And the girls are as vicious as the boys.

I can look back to my childhood, and imagine going to the teacher and telling on Bubba, only to have Bubba grab me, after school, by the hair, swing me around and pull so much hair out I have a bald, bloody spot. Do you think I'd go back to the teacher after that?

In other words, IMO, there is NO safe spot. There are kids, who for whatever reason, exude vulnerablity, and the bullies smell them just like a fox smells a hen. I don't ever see these kids going to the teacher, because he/she knows if that happens, the bullying will be much worse.

Am I talking about a world that existed thirty years ago, but not today?

Elphaba

[MorningStar]

In this case, it was kids from school spreading rumors about him online and insulting him. Random strangers insulting you shouldn't be a big deal, but these were schoolmates making anonymous comments about him being gay and that sort of thing. But yeah, getting off line would have been helpful.

[Palerider]

Am I understanding the question correctly....its just here in this country that has this problem???

[a-train]

There is really only one way to solve these kinds of issues and that is for the parents to be involved in the student and the school. Big government programs have made this issue terribly worse. Kansas City's school district was basically ruined by big government program ideas.

Locally managed and operated schools accountable to parents are what we need.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Locally managed and operated schools accountable to parents are what we need.

-a-train

While I would likely agree with this conclusion, I doubt that local vs. federal control has much to do with the problem of bullying. Some principals are charismatic and excel at leadership. They inspire anti-bullying in students and parents.

Nevertheless, in the end, parents need to listen to their children, and so do teachers--and even friends. With the problem of young bitter children becoming older, disgruntled, gun-toting adolescents, this is an issue that now often does require adult intervention.

[Fiannan]

This post is by PRISON CHAPLAIN--QUOTES ARE FIANNAN

Oh puleeeze...the average school admin type makes 2 to 3 times the amount of money as a teacher

Not true. If I'm not mistaken, public school administrators in our area make somewhere in the mid-60s, comp with mid to upper 40s for teachers--but they work at least one month more per year than the teachers. So, their pay per hour is probably only about 20-30% higher. And, the education requirements are higher--most have Ed. Doctorates.

and sits in a cushy office while the real job of education falls back on the teachers in the classroom

You really believe this? You believe that school principals just sit in the office. Administration is work. It is mentally exhausting, and requires something that many companies would pay much more than our schools do...leadership.

BTW, why do you find it informative and useful to dish professionals, who serve the public?

And highly educated? Oh right, they get an advanced degree in educational administrative issues...you learn to speak "educationese" and have to show up for all the sporting events -- of course you rarely if ever see them show up for academic competitions like for debate or music.

They have doctorates. Earned doctorates. Their education is at least the equivalent of lawyers--or prison chaplains. :-)

Fiannan, I understand that it is sometimes fun to dish certain professions, in order to advance certain political ideals. But this post is rather unkind, and uninformed, imho.

[Fiannan]

There is really only one way to solve these kinds of issues and that is for the parents to be involved in the student and the school. Big government programs have made this issue terribly worse. Kansas City's school district was basically ruined by big government program ideas.

Locally managed and operated schools accountable to parents are what we need.

-a-train

In Europe they just try to teach kids to have respect for one another -- and if bullying still takes place the school can be sued if it doesn't try to stop it. No big government program necessary.

Bullying is what causes kids to go on shooting rampages -- yet admins try to blame everything from trenchcoats to Marilyn Manson.

[a-train]

In my high school, it seemed the administration was powerless in many ways to regulate the students or the teachers. The principle didn't have the power to enforce the rules. Decisions to expel students guilty of the worst infractions were made only after all sorts of district and even state level hearings were held.

Drugs and alcohol were a part of our school life. I went to that High School only my Junior and Senior years. In those two years, three students were murdered at schools in the district, one of which attended our school but was murdered at another school his bus stopped at.

The school administration should answer directly to parents, not a board that answers to a state body. They should have control of the school and be able to act directly in school affairs rather than act as mere messengers of an off-site board. Teachers and administration should not be competitive, but the administration should have power to oversee teacher conduct and handle business.

-a-train

[Fiannan]

They have doctorates. Earned doctorates. Their education is at least the equivalent of lawyers--or prison chaplains.

Fiannan, I understand that it is sometimes fun to dish certain professions, in order to advance certain political ideals. But this post is rather unkind, and uninformed, imho.

What political ideas am I advancing here P.C.? I think this is an issue that should concern all people, of all political types.

As for doctorates when I was doing my masters it was advanced in the graduate school that education doctorates where the easiest to aquire. A teacher with a masters degree in math, or science, or health, or any other field has a much tougher time than one with an education degree.

Also, did I not praise teachers? I have known maybe one principal that I had respect for (I have 8 kids and my social circle includes lots of educators so I don't think I am uninformed). When one reads about bullying in schools, idiotic solutions proposed to curb school violence like banning trenchcoats or suspending some 7 year old for a week for having a squirt gun or accusing a 12 year old of sexual harassment for swatting a girl's behind (after she has swatted his), or have teachers tell me that the first question about half of principals ask a prospective teacher is "what sport can you coach" it just confirms my views of administrators today.

Now if I have any "political view" maybe I do share George Carlin's view of education. For that go to youtube and type in "George Carlin education" and then tell me anything he says in that 4 minutes that is incorrect.

[pam]

Fiannan I have to disagree with your assessment of the school systems through the country. Now of course I've only been involved with public schools in Utah so I can't speak nationally. Administrators have it tough these days. Not only is there an extreme short supply of qualified teachers, school budgets get cut constantly. Having been a PTA President and a school Community Group Chairman for 2 years, I was a bit privy to some of the problems adminstrators and teachers face. The majority of adminstrators and teachers have a huge amount of love and compassion for their students. But...they also deal with parents. Sometimes parents are THE most difficult part of their position. I found that the parents that complained the most were those parents that you never saw at a PTA meeting. You never saw them volunteer an hour in their child's class. You never saw them at a school function. You never saw them at a parent/teacher conference. As just jason mentioned there are a lot of parents that are just plain lazy when it comes to their child's education. They expect the schools to educate. Well I'm sorry...it takes more than a school to educate a child. It takes more than a teacher to educate a child. It takes more than an administrator to educate a child. My opinion is many of the bullies are probably children of the type of parent I mentioned above. Children need to know they have the full support of their parents. Granted many parents work...but many of the functions are held during non working hours.

I have nothing but the highest regard and respect to those hardworking teachers who give it their all to teach our children. I'm not saying all teachers do that. But more do than not. Teachers are not full time babysitters but I feel that there are many parents that put them in that category.

Bullies are not created by school administrators.

[a-train]

Fiannan,

A link would have got you into trouble. I love that Carlin speech. It is all true.

-a-train

[Fiannan]

Pam, of course bullies are not "created" by school administrators but if a school administrator doesn't put up an agressive effort to stop this epidemic then they are accessories to the CRIME!

Yes, it is a crime. Let's say you have a job with a major firm. Each day you go to work you are harassed sexually or you even get your property stolen OR other employees physically assult you. You report this to the boss who does nothing but verbally chastize these thugs. So of course the assult and battery continues.

WHO IS LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE????

You know as well as I do that the cops will get involved and the employer is going to get a major lawsuit as well.

Now you can quit your job if this is happening, but a school kid whose parents are unable to homeschool or aren't rich enough to afford a private school where rules are enforced is forced by law to have to go into this psychotic environment. If he or she refused they get into trouble so why not at least apply the same expectations (legally) we put on private employers towards government schools?????

So if you know admins who agressively fight conditions that encourage bullying or go after bullies with an uncompromising vengence then more power to these fine people. If you know admins who do not, or do it in a passive way, then when some poor kid gets harassed, goes on a rampage or hangs himself or herself then a great deal of the responsibility should be placed on the desk of the admins.

[prisonchaplain]

What political ideas am I advancing here P.C.? I]

think this is an issue that should concern all people, of all political types.

Hard to say why you seem bent on going after school administrators. At this point I won't speculate. It just makes me nervous when we broad-brush an entire profession as being made up of lazy and useless.

As for doctorates when I was doing my masters it was advanced in the graduate school that education doctorates where the easiest to aquire. A teacher with a masters degree in math, or science, or health, or any other field has a much tougher time than one with an education degree.

If so...then they were pretty smart to go for the Ed. Doct., so they could lead and make more money. Seriously, what is your point? Do you blame principals for bullying???

Also, did I not praise teachers? I have known maybe one principal that I had respect for (I have 8 kids and my social circle includes lots of educators so I don't think I am uninformed). When one reads about bullying in schools, idiotic solutions proposed to curb school violence like banning trenchcoats or suspending some 7 year old for a week for having a squirt gun or accusing a 12 year old of sexual harassment for swatting a girl's behind (after she has swatted his), or have teachers tell me that the first question about half of principals ask a prospective teacher is "what sport can you coach" it just confirms my views of administrators today.

IMHO you've taken a spattering of incidences, and perhaps some real concerns (sports vs. academic extra curriculars), and use them to unfairly condemn an entire profession. Such a tact certainly does not get at the heart of the bullying problem.

Now if I have any "political view" maybe I do share George Carlin's view of education. For that go to youtube and type in "George Carlin education" and then tell me anything he says in that 4 minutes that is incorrect.

Sorry...Carlin has too much of a potty mouth for my taste.

[a-train]

Sorry...Carlin has too much of a potty mouth for my taste.

Yeah, but sometimes the truth just isn't pretty and what that man is talking about is very ugly indeed.

-a-train