What are some good arguments for God existing within matter, space, and time?

[CV75]

5 hours ago, MrShorty said:

This has been an interesting question to me for some time.

1) Coincidentally, my podcast list yesterday included The Bible for Normal People episode 270 featuring an Episcopalian (if memory serves) talking about the embodied God of the Old Testament and how that contrasts with the Greek-influenced Christian God. If you are interested in looking at Biblical (especially OT) views of God and how they portray God in embodied, anthropomorphic ways, you might find that interesting.

2) Several years ago, I started a thread here asking about the scope of God's creation (

 ). In many ways, I see your question very similar to trying to determine whether God exists inside of the universe He created or whether or exists outside of the universe. The conversation ranged far and wide, but maybe some thoughts there will trigger some ideas. At the end of the day, as much as it creates a separation between me and God, I find myself leaning towards God existing outside of our universe, mostly because my puny mortal mind has trouble envisioning an embodied God who creates the universe from inside the universe.

A fascinating topic, and I find very little concrete evidence to lead to answers. Mostly, I see lots of speculation. Perhaps somewhere in all of that speculation are ideas that bring us closer to understand God's nature.

Once we have faith in Him, we make Him part of our universe, the one we create in our minds/brains as we put things together. We then realize He has been there in the background of our universe all along. So, I would say He exists and organizes in both universes. From His universe, He organized what we now label the universe independently of our mental states, and our mental states begin to perceive and put one together for ourselves. By grace He deems this an acceptably congruous universe to unite with His as we act in faith.

D&C calls these universes "spheres" ("estates" elsewhere), and they are constituted of things that act and things that are acted upon. Our agency is a gift that is given in various estates, including this mortal one.

[askandanswer]

15 hours ago, zil2 said:

I'm also OK with folk exploring whatever interests them, but...  If one wants to understand God's nature, study the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and do your best to imitate them.

And after that, if there is still more you want to know about God, then I would recommend a study of the life and teachings of Joseph Smith. I believe that no mortal, except for perhaps Adam, knew God and His works better than Joseph Smith and we have far more information from Joseph Smith than we do from Adam. 

[askandanswer]

Psalms 119: 99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

And after that, if there is still more you want to know about God, then I would recommend a study of the life and teachings of Joseph Smith. I believe that no mortal, except for perhaps Adam

I agree with you.  Adam 1st, Then Joseph.

And that includes

D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

[MrShorty]

17 hours ago, Vort said:

What are some good arguments for God existing outside space and time?

For me, the first argument I think of is that space and time have a beginning point. If God exists within space and time, what is His nature before space and time exist (if that even makes sense)? How does He manipulate space and time in order to create them from with space and time? I can admit that mostly this might just be my own lack of imagination, but I find it much easier to imagine God outside of space and time creating space and time from outside rather than within.

[zil2]

25 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

space and time have a beginning point.

Maybe the space and time we know, but it's absurd to think that there was ever a point when there was neither space nor time anywhere - in other words, never and nowhere have never existed.

Quote

D&C 88:37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

IMO, this principle applies to all, not just our world or universe. 

[Vort]

8 hours ago, MrShorty said:

For me, the first argument I think of is that space and time have a beginning point.

I am not at all convinced of this. Ask your friendly neighborhood university professor physicist what it means to "create" spacetime, and what existed "before" the Big Bang. He will tell you, "No idea." At this point, the popular cosmology among physicists is just words. Much of the inferred meaning behind those words, e.g. there was not space nor time before the Big Bang, has absolutely no substantiation. Technically, it is not even a scientific question, because the hypotheses aren't falsifiable. Needless to say, there are no models of reality that allow for timeless spacelessness.

In short (in honor of MrShorty), I see no reason to think that spacetime came into being out of nothing 13.7 billion years ago. That sounds to me an awful lot like...well...creatio ex nihilo. So if God Himself dwells within space and within time, that doesn't really disqualify the Big Bang, only some people's formulation of what they think it must imply.

To me, a far more compelling argument is that the speed of light c is unbelievably slow. Travel through our universe involves great passages of time for even relatively small travel distances. As much as the time involved is important, more important to my mind is the time differential experienced between bodies moving in different intertial reference frames. On a sort of nuts-and-bolts level, I can't see how a c-bound God—especially when c is less than 300,000 km/s—administers even a single galaxy, nor even a small, say 10,000-light-year across, section of that galaxy, much less an entire universe.

Of course, my inability to see or imagine something is no indicator as to that thing's potential validity. But the idea that God might somehow, in some incomprehensible (to us) way, exist "outside" of our universe, does seem to allow for all sorts of otherwise impossible scenarios. But please note that that same thinking would invalidate the arrow of time and the whole idea of causality ("first A, then as a result B"), which is a huge thing for me. My interpretation of the scriptures indicates to me that God does not experience nor allow any "temporal paradoxes" a la Star Trek.

[askandanswer]

20 hours ago, Vort said:

But please note that that same thinking would invalidate the arrow of time and the whole idea of causality ("first A, then as a result B"), which is a huge thing for me. My interpretation of the scriptures indicates to me that God does not experience nor allow any "temporal paradoxes" a la Star Trek.

I seem to recall reading various things that suggest that according to the laws that govern the universe, there is nothing which prevents time from flowing in more than one direction.

It also seems to be the case that variations on the double slit experiment raise questions about causality as well, with photons appearing to change their behaviour as a result of something that has happened, but with the change happening before that something happens. 

These are things that I don't really have any understanding of, but I have come across these ideas in numerous places.

[Traveler]

On 6/30/2024 at 10:33 AM, zil2 said:

Maybe the space and time we know, but it's absurd to think that there was ever a point when there was neither space nor time anywhere - in other words, never and nowhere have never existed.

IMO, this principle applies to all, not just our world or universe. 

 

On 6/30/2024 at 6:33 PM, Vort said:

I am not at all convinced of this. Ask your friendly neighborhood university professor physicist what it means to "create" spacetime, and what existed "before" the Big Bang. He will tell you, "No idea." At this point, the popular cosmology among physicists is just words. Much of the inferred meaning behind those words, e.g. there was not space nor time before the Big Bang, has absolutely no substantiation. Technically, it is not even a scientific question, because the hypotheses aren't falsifiable. Needless to say, there are no models of reality that allow for timeless spacelessness.

In short (in honor of MrShorty), I see no reason to think that spacetime came into being out of nothing 13.7 billion years ago. That sounds to me an awful lot like...well...creatio ex nihilo. So if God Himself dwells within space and within time, that doesn't really disqualify the Big Bang, only some people's formulation of what they think it must imply.

To me, a far more compelling argument is that the speed of light c is unbelievably slow. Travel through our universe involves great passages of time for even relatively small travel distances. As much as the time involved is important, more important to my mind is the time differential experienced between bodies moving in different intertial reference frames. On a sort of nuts-and-bolts level, I can't see how a c-bound God—especially when c is less than 300,000 km/s—administers even a single galaxy, nor even a small, say 10,000-light-year across, section of that galaxy, much less an entire universe.

Of course, my inability to see or imagine something is no indicator as to that thing's potential validity. But the idea that God might somehow, in some incomprehensible (to us) way, exist "outside" of our universe, does seem to allow for all sorts of otherwise impossible scenarios. But please note that that same thinking would invalidate the arrow of time and the whole idea of causality ("first A, then as a result B"), which is a huge thing for me. My interpretation of the scriptures indicates to me that God does not experience nor allow any "temporal paradoxes" a la Star Trek.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 3:23 PM, askandanswer said:

I seem to recall reading various things that suggest that according to the laws that govern the universe, there is nothing which prevents time from flowing in more than one direction.

It also seems to be the case that variations on the double slit experiment raise questions about causality as well, with photons appearing to change their behaviour as a result of something that has happened, but with the change happening before that something happens. 

These are things that I don't really have any understanding of, but I have come across these ideas in numerous places.

Isaiah purports the notion that we learn line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  It appears to me that G-d speaks to us in ways that we have understanding and can perceive.  Let me provide a scriptural example of what I am talking about.  Abraham chapter 3 covers some things about our universe and this revelation was given to Abraham while he was in Egypt.  The great scientist and thinkers at that time of Egypt understand and believed that all thing that existed are related by ratios.  If one understood the ratios they would have great power and control of things.  They understood the ratios of sound and were the first (as far as I know) to divide sound into ratios and establish harmonic ratios as well as destructive rations of sound.  I could explain much more in detail – the ancient Egyptians were quite advanced.  Note that in Abraham 3 there is a lot of explaining things (relationships) according to ratios.  For example:  If two things exist one will be greater than the other.  Then it is explained how all things are related to G-d.

I believe that Doctrine and Covenants section 88 explains basically the same revelation but according to Newtonian physics that was common in the days of Joseph Smith.  The parallel example to what I referenced above we see “37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.  38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.  39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.”

I would really like to see these revelations given with relativity and special relativity in mind.  And also with what we have discovered with James Web Telescope some updates.  We are told that in the last days that knowledge of the universe will expand (the example is like the unrolling of a scroll – maybe we could think of it as watching a youTube video.

I am looking forward to many more revelations. 

 

The Traveler