Some more thoughts...

[Jamie123]

I’ve been pondering over some of the comments on the thread I started about “Dead People” – particularly Carborendum’s. I have apologised to him, but my days of groveling before other people's hurt feelings are long gone. (I will say though that it is difficult to have a meaningful dialogue about anything existential or metaphysical, with someone who claims to know the whole truth already, and gets irritable at the suggestion that perhaps really they don’t.)

Death is a mystery to me. So is life. We see death everywhere there is life. Plants and animals live and then they die. In animals in particular we see aspects of ourselves: some animals are capable of rational thought. (Anyone who has ever been around Burmese cats will know that.) They have emotions similar to ours: they understand love, anger, sadness, fear. Humans are (allegedly) the most intelligent animals, but surely the difference is quantitative, not qualitative. We are essentially the same sort of thing.

It is no answer at all to say “God placed Man above the animals”. Maybe He did. But we are left with the question of where these animals - beings not that dissimilar from ourselves - go after death. If the answer to that is “nowhere” we are left with the sneaking suspicion that perhaps the same is true for us.

I’m not saying this to offend Carborendum, or any other LDS Temple-goer; I’m just trying to articulate my own thoughts. Death – to me – is a mystery. Maybe it isn’t to everyone, but I suspect it is to most people. Perhaps I shouldn’t say “most”. I’ll say “many” instead. Though perhaps “most” of the “many” get through their lives without thinking about it too deeply.

I have always hoped that by embracing doubt and “working through it” prayerfully and asking questions, may be a road to a stronger certainty. (I think Tennyson felt the same way, when he wrote the passage I quoted earlier: “And Power was with him in the night, / Which makes the darkness and the light, / And dwells not in the light alone”.) The margins of my Bible are covered with questions and “doubts” to pray and ponder over. So please, Carborendum, don’t tell me I am “closed to anything more”.

I’m particularly grateful to Vort for his analogy with Jesus healing at the pool. This was typical of Jesus. He entered the worlds of the people he met in order to reach them. He dined with "tax collectors and sinners". He could I suppose have preached from his throne in Heaven using some kind of “holy megaphone”, but he came down to Earth and became fully human. He entered into the whole mess and muddle of human life. He was tempted in the wilderness. He experienced doubt and fear. He said “Father, remove this cup from me”. On the cross he cried “My God, why have you forsaken me?” He did not preach from a position of absolute power and confidence. He became weak and vulnerable for our sake, and he was honest about it.

Which brings me to Vort’s other point about “utter honesty”. While I agree totally, utter honesty is not easy to achieve. We often think too much of ourselves, and at other times despair and think too little. (If the “we” in that sentence offends you, read it as “I”.) We (I) latch onto ideas that appeal to us and gloss over evidence to the contrary. It is something else we (I) need to strive and pray for.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123
I misquoted: it was "my God" not "Father"

[Jamie123]

Sorry - replied by mistake while trying to do an edit.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

But we are left with the question of where these animals - beings not that dissimilar from ourselves - go after death.

Joseph Smith taught that they too have spirits (this much is in scripture) and live on (that they have spirits leaves no other option) and we will see them again (and the first two make this seem a "no brainer").  I do find it interesting that I have yet to hear of visions or visits to the spirit world that make mention of animals, though.

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Death – to me – is a mystery. Maybe it isn’t to everyone, but I suspect it is to most people. Perhaps I shouldn’t say “most”. I’ll say “many” instead. Though perhaps “most” of the “many” get through their lives without thinking about it too deeply.

I expect you're right on all counts.  But you're not among most, or even many.  You are among the few of the few.  My observation is that the majority of LDS on this board are firm in their faith - active in their faith, where perhaps half (or more?) of those baptized LDS aren't.

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I have always hoped that by embracing doubt and “working through it” prayerfully and asking questions, may be a road to a stronger certainty.

I suppose that depends on what "embracing doubt" entails.  I'll just quote then President Uchtdorf ("Come, Join with Us"):

Quote

Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?”

It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Embracing doubts can easily prevent faith from functioning at all.  Doubt is far easier than faith, IMO.

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

He experienced doubt and fear. He said “Father, remove this cup from me”. On the cross he cried “My God, why have you forsaken me?” He did not preach from a position of absolute power and confidence.

I disagree with the bold parts, though I can understand why someone might perceive it that way.

Another response pending.

[Jamie123]

2 minutes ago, zil2 said:

But you're not among most, or even many.  You are among the few of the few.

Ah...I begin to see part of the confusion. You're presupposing that by "we" I'm referring just to people on this forum. I'm not. I'm talking about humanity in general.

[zil2]

1 minute ago, Jamie123 said:

Ah...I begin to see part of the confusion. You're presupposing that by "we" I'm referring just to people on this forum. I'm not. I'm talking about humanity in general.

I'm not, but see my next reply, the one I'm in the middle of writing.  But I'll add here, if you are going to discuss these things here, you should expect each individual to respond based on their own convictions and faith, unless you explicitly ask them to make assumptions about humanity in general (again, see my as yet unfinished reply).

[Jamie123]

4 minutes ago, zil2 said:

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

He experienced doubt and fear. He said “Father, remove this cup from me”. On the cross he cried “My God, why have you forsaken me?” He did not preach from a position of absolute power and confidence.

I disagree with the bold parts, though I can understand why someone might perceive it that way.

Maybe you're right. But it's odd that Jesus would have phrased it as a question if there was not some kind of doubt - or at least vulnerability - in his mind. At face value the answer was obvious - it was necessary to work the atonement. At that moment, during the absolute anguish of his separation from his Father, doubt crept in. And I don't think that takes anything away - it enforces the fact that he WAS human, like us.

[Jamie123]

10 minutes ago, zil2 said:

you should expect each individual to respond based on their own convictions and faith

Well of course I do. There would be little point in this dialogue otherwise. (I'm not interested in talking to a sounding board.) What bugged me about Carb's response was his pronouncement that I was "closed to anything else" and that "there was no point discussing it further". He was doing exactly the same thing to me that he was accusing me of doing to him.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

(I will say though that it is difficult to have a meaningful dialogue about anything existential or metaphysical, with someone who claims to know the whole truth already, and gets irritable at the suggestion that perhaps really they don’t.)

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

So please, Carborendum, don’t say I am “closed to anything more”.

Problems will almost always arise from telling another person what they know, feel, or whatever one wants to call statements like the above.  Unless by some miracle the Spirit reveals to us what is in the heart and mind of another, we cannot know what another person feels, thinks, wants, etc.  And while it may seem "obvious" to us, that does not mean we are right.  Since recognizing how much this behavior offends and annoys me, I have tried hard to be aware and not do it to other people.  I recommend all take that route.  Asking what another thinks, feels, wants, intends, etc. will lead to discussion and understanding, usually without offense.  Telling another person what they think, feel, want, intend is just arrogance and offensive, even if the other person is humble and patient enough not to take offense.

(In other words, Jamie, you ought not to tell @Carborendum that perhaps he doesn't really know some truth that he has claimed to know; and Carb ought not to tell you you're closed to anything more - because neither of you can know that, you only assume or suppose or believe it.)

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

someone who claims to know the whole truth already

Do you believe that God (usually via the Holy Ghost (Spirit, Holy Spirit)) can give a person knowledge in such a way that the person thereafter knows with as much or more certainty than they know what they see around them?  If not, I'm not sure there's much further to go, because I have experienced this and if you haven't, there is no way for me to communicate to you the certainty, firmness, or conviction of having gained knowledge in this way - in other words, I don't know how to communicate these things and I don't think they can be understood without having experienced it ("you had to be there" sort of thing).  If you do believe this (which means you have experienced it), then we can understand each other as we talk about the difference between belief, faith, and this knowledge from God (as well as other types of knowledge).

[Jamie123]

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

Problems will almost always arise from telling another person what they know, feel, or whatever one wants to call statements like the above.

I appreciate your advice, Zil, but in my defence I did not attempt to tell Carb what he knew or believed. I merely made suggestions about how we (humans) deal with metaphysical propositions such as life after death, which he was quite at liberty to disagree with. Perhaps I was wrong to extrapolate my own experiences to "most people" and I also phrased it badly. It's not the first time I've gotten into trouble for bad phraseology.

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

("you had to be there" sort of thing)

Well absolutely. If I was to tell you that I went down to the river this morning and saw a turtle with an elephant's head and giraffe's legs paddling upstream on a surfboard, you would quite reasonably suspect that: (i) I saw something that looked like a turtle with an elephant's head and giraffe's legs paddling upstream on a surfboard but actually wasn't, or (ii) I was having some kind of psychotic episode, or (iii) I'd been at the "funny fags" (I believe "wacky tobaccy" is the phrase you use) or (iv) I was telling a whopping great fib. You might perhaps entertain the fifth possibility that I really had seen such a creature, but if you'd admitted to considering the first four explanations, there would be little point me saying "you've not lived my life, and you've not seen what I've seen" and stumping off in a mard*.

Having said that, I am finding this dialogue very interesting and (I hope) useful, and I'm grateful to everyone (even Carb). Perhaps I should explain a little more about my own journey. My wife (yes...yes...the same wife I am always moaning about) claims she sees spirits and angels. On the rare occasions I've said to her "I know you think you see these things" or "imagination can be very strong" it's never gone down very well. (In her position I probably would find it patronizing.) So it's a mystery about her I've learned to accept. There are a lot of things in this world I don't understand, and that's one of them.

Before you jump too quickly to my wife's defence, you'd better know that she also filled the house with dreamcatchers, tarot decks, crystals (with supposedly mystical properties) and books written by Doreen Virtue before she (Doreen Virtue) became a Christian. She's also dragged me to Tarot readings and "services" at the Kingston Spiritualist Church, and she's as adamant about all those things as she is about her "angels and dead people". So I think you can understand why I have some degree of skepticism about "spiritual experiences". I am trying to build bridges with her right now, which is possibly why God has allowed me to get into this conversation. The fact that I have difficulty with these things does not mean I am not open, nor trying to understand. I'm hoping it will help.

*A sulk. I was brought up in Leicestershire.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123
The word is "psychotic" not "psychiatric"

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

I suppose that depends on what "embracing doubt" entails.  I'll just quote then President Uchtdorf ("Come, Join with Us"):

Quote

Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?”

It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Embracing doubts can easily prevent faith from functioning at all.  Doubt is far easier than faith, IMO.

"Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith". I like that. I think this is what Tennyson meant by "honest doubt".

I've quoted that poor man to death I know, but I'll quote him once more for luck...

Quote

You say, but with no touch of scorn,
         Sweet-hearted, you, whose light-blue eyes
         Are tender over drowning flies,
You tell me, doubt is Devil-born.

I know not: one indeed I knew
         In many a subtle question versed,
         Who touch'd a jarring lyre at first,
But ever strove to make it true:

"But ever strove to make it true..."

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I appreciate your advice, Zil, but in my defence I did not attempt to tell Carb what he knew or believed. I merely made suggestions about how we (humans) deal with metaphysical propositions, which he was quite at liberty to disagree with. Perhaps I was wrong to extrapolate my own experiences to "most people" and I also phrased it badly. It's not the first time I've gotten into trouble for "bad phraseology".

I need to go back and read the thread.  [done] You're right.  You were making general statements and Carb appeared to take them as directed specifically at him, perhaps because of what you quoted - or I'm misunderstanding the interaction.

18 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Well absolutely. If I was to tell you that I went down to the river this morning and saw a turtle with an elephant's head and giraffe's legs paddling upstream on a surfboard...

While I get that you're using this to make a point, and I get the point, I don't think it's a good comparison to spiritual experiences or knowledge - the one using natural senses, the other not.

Meanwhile, The Adventures of Quin and Makhabesh may well need a surfing turtelephaffe (turteleraffe?).  The back of my brain is now working on it.  The question is, is this a gigantic turtle, or are the elephant and giraffe parts shrunken accordingly?  (SPOILER ALERT: Unless something unexpected happens, the impending stage of their adventure will in fact take them near to the ocean, so why not?)

25 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

So I think you can understand why I have some degree of skepticism about "spiritual experiences".

For us (LDS), evil spirits are just as real as the angels of God.  If one invites evil spirits into one's life, they'll be perfectly happy to deceive and play the part of "good angel"¹. We (LDS) believe that there is an order and purpose to all things and that God does not just let folks see spirits for any old reason, nor through things of the occult, about which scripture is quite clear.  Therefore, my conclusion would be that if your wife is seeing spirits, unless they are telling her to shun the occult things you mentioned and come to Christ, they are evil spirits.  If your wife is not really seeing spirits, then clearly something else is going on (imagination, delusion, lies, whatever).

¹Examples: Sherem (Jacob 7) and more pointedly, Korihor (Alma 30:53, 60 - though the whole chapter tells the full story - in particular, this points out how one can come to believe one's own lies)

So, are these spirits your wife sees testifying of Christ, calling her to repent and come unto him, and telling her things consistent with scripture?  Or are they telling her things "pleasing unto the carnal mind"?

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Meanwhile, The Adventures of Quin and Makhabesh may well need a surfing turtelephaffe (turteleraffe?).  The back of my brain is now working on it.  The question is, is this a gigantic turtle, or are the elephant and giraffe parts shrunken accordingly?  (SPOILER ALERT: Unless something unexpected happens, the impending stage of their adventure will in fact take them near to the ocean, so why not?)

Should anyone wish to ensure that Mr. or Miss Turtelephaffe appears in my story, help me out by suggesting names - once a character has a name, it's pretty much guaranteed to make an appearance.  Note that the name doesn't have to be like our own names (I mean, we have characters named Makhabesh and Essri), and there's no guarantee I'll use the name you suggest, but a name will help.  Also, if the character is meant to be, I'll recognize the name as soon as I see it.

Also, feel free to add anything else that would bring this character to life - their reason for surfing, or perhaps paddling upstream after having finished surfing - their personality, history, goal, blah blah blah.  The character could be a bad guy, if you prefer...

(Sorry, @Jamie123 - once my brain gets started on this kind of thing, the real world gets kicked to the curb... )

[Jamie123]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

Therefore, my conclusion would be that if your wife is seeing spirits, unless they are telling her to shun the occult things you mentioned and come to Christ, they are evil spirits.

Try telling her that. I think her overall view is that there are many spiritual forces at work, some good some evil, and not all of the the good ones have anything to do with Christianity. Or at least not organized Christianity- and certainly not the Church of England. (Though that's turning into a bit of an "anything-goes fest". I've more than once thought of joining GAFCON instead.) That's the impression I get from her anyway. (I shouldn't try to speak for her any more than I should for our friend Carb.) From what I've read of Doreen Virtue (pre-conversion) it's all about "Ascended Masters" - of which Jesus is only one. (If you want the names of some more, I believe they include Krishna, Budda, Joseph Smith and Mahatma Gandhi.)

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

So, are these spirits your wife sees testifying of Christ, calling her to repent and come unto him, and telling her things consistent with scripture?  Or are they telling her things "pleasing unto the carnal mind"?

This is precisely what I worry about.

She and I are in some ways opposites. C.S. Lewis once wrote:

Quote

“There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them."

I'm at least verging on the first - the semi-materialist. I do believe in the Devil, but not in the matter-of-fact way that a more "spiritual" person would. She's the second - the New Ager (though no New Ager would admit to being in contact with the Devil).

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123
I quoted the wrong bit of Zil's message

[Jamie123]

6 minutes ago, zil2 said:

(Sorry, @Jamie123 - once my brain gets started on this kind of thing, the real world gets kicked to the curb... )

I'm having exactly the same problem! Haha!

[zil2]

33 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Try telling her that.

Well, obviously, there's no point in that.  I'm simply pointing out that there are only two options - she's seeing them, or she's not.  Within each option, there are additional possibilities to explain what's happening...  I was definitely not proposing either as a point of discussion with her.

40 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Though that's turning into a bit of an "anything-goes fest".

And when a person believes this, the best things you can hope for are to be guided by the Spirit in your interactions with said person, and to create opportunities for them to feel the influence of the Spirit.  The closer you are to Christ, the more able you will be to do that.

44 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I think her overall view is that there are many spiritual forces at work, some good some evil, and not all of the the good ones have anything to do with Christianity. Or at least not organized Christianity

I have no idea how to convince anyone of anything, but the problem here is believing that organized religion is all man-made.  Believe that and of course none of them matters all that much and the possibility of there being "many spiritual forces" including good ones that don't have anything to do with "Christianity" (whatever that means) becomes much more real.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone makes any sense of anything without the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the only thing I know of that makes sense of everything.

[Jamie123]

23 minutes ago, zil2 said:

And when a person believes this, the best things you can hope for are to be guided by the Spirit in your interactions with said person, and to create opportunities for them to feel the influence of the Spirit.  The closer you are to Christ, the more able you will be to do that.

I'm not talking about my particular parish, but the Church in general. Poor old Justin Welby (the Archbishop of Canterbury) is in the impossible position of trying to please everyone - the conservatives like me (and by modern C of E standards I am very conservative) and the "God is a Gas" gang. I don't envy him one tiny little bit.

23 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Believe that and of course none of them matters all that much and the possibility of there being "many spiritual forces" including good ones that don't have anything to do with "Christianity" (whatever that means) becomes much more real.

That is, I suspect, pretty much where she is. I certainly haven't helped. What could I have done differently? I could have said "no Tarot in this house" and "keep those dreamcatchers away from our bed" in a patriarchal tone of voice. Perhaps if I'd shown a bit of faith and backbone it would have worked. I suspect probably it would have driven her away sooner into a life of no-Church (not even Church of England) and unbridled New-Age chicanery. And to say that I "shouldn't have married her in the first place" would be to wish my daughter out of existence. (OK...maybe not...premortal spirits etc... let's not go there.) But either way, we are where we are... I'm just praying to God for guidance. 

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

30 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Honestly, I don't know how anyone makes any sense of anything without the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the only thing I know of that makes sense of everything.

I sometimes think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of things I can make sense of...

Edit: No actually that's hyperbole. The Bible helps me. I read it every day, and it gives me strength even when I don't understand it (which is a lot of the time). And my daughter is talking to me again. I do have a very good friend in America whose e-mail address has suddenly vanished along with her Facebook page. I don't have her new address either, so I have no idea if she's alive or not. But God knows, and I am entrusting her to His care. I have a lot to be thankful for. 

Edited July 10, 2024 by Jamie123

[zil2]

46 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I sometimes think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of things I can make sense of...

I doubt anything at all would make any sense to me without the restored gospel - it is a lens through which the universe has meaning and without which nothing has any meaning at all.

50 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm just praying to God for guidance. 

The right course, I think.  The pure love of Christ, trying to see her as God sees her, respecting her agency...  I don't know what else to recommend.

41 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

The Bible helps me. I read it every day, and it gives me strength even when I don't understand it (which is a lot of the time).

God can do that.

41 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

And my daughter is talking to me again.

I'm glad for you.

43 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I do have a very good friend in America whose e-mail address has suddenly vanished along with her Facebook page. I don't have her new address either, so I have no idea if she's alive or not.

44 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

But God knows, and I am entrusting her to His care.

I believe in the end we will be dumbfounded, left speechless and in awe of just how perfect that care was for each of us - you and me included.

45 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I have a lot to be thankful for. 

You and me, both.

[Vort]

This is a great thread. Maybe I'll have something to contribute.

[Jamie123]

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

Joseph Smith taught that they too have spirits (this much is in scripture) and live on (that they have spirits leaves no other option) and we will see them again (and the first two make this seem a "no brainer").  I do find it interesting that I have yet to hear of visions or visits to the spirit world that make mention of animals, though.

Perhaps I overthink these things, but do all animals have spirits? I can understand it for our cats and dogs, but what about the ticks we pull off them? Or the fleas we kill when we de-louse our pets? What about carpet mites and bed bugs and cockroaches and greenfly and the midges that bite you when you're camping (and never get any fewer no matter how many you swat)? They are all animals too.

[estradling75]

16 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Perhaps I overthink these things, but do all animals have spirits? I can understand it for our cats and dogs, but what about the ticks we pull off them? Or the fleas we kill when we de-louse our pets? What about carpet mites and bed bugs and cockroaches and greenfly and the midges that bite you when you're camping (and never get any fewer no matter how many you swat)? They are all animals too.

In many respect we can consider Humans to be animals as well.  And in the animal range we can note that there is a difference between the Human animal, and animals consider "useful" and animals we consider "pests"...  So we understand and accept that animal is a spectrum with lots of variety.  Yet when we say that animals have spirits we often mistakenly assume that all the "spirits" are the same? Why would that make any sense? (Other then we do not know any better)  While the restored gospel gives us more information on the subject of spirits it is still a subject we really do not know that much about.

 

 

[Jamie123]

13 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

While the restored gospel gives us more information on the subject of spirits it is still a subject we really do not know that much about.

I know what I'm beginning to sound like:

I couldn't find the clip but a little bit later:

Bart: What about a robot with a human brain?

Teacher: (pulling her hair out) I don't know! Is a bit of blind faith too much to ask?

Edited July 11, 2024 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

54 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Yet when we say that animals have spirits we often mistakenly assume that all the "spirits" are the same?

Do you mean the same as our spirits? Or the same as they were in mortality? Or the same as each other? I was vaguely imagining that a human would have a human spirit, and a cat would become a spirit cat, and a tick a spirit tick.

Edited July 11, 2024 by Jamie123

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

but what about the ticks we pull off them? Or the fleas we kill when we de-louse our pets? What about carpet mites and bed bugs and cockroaches and greenfly and the midges that bite you when you're camping (and never get any fewer no matter how many you swat)? They are all animals too.

Yes, and all the bacteria we're made of (seriously, our bodies are made up to a large degree by bacteria, apparently) and viruses and weeds and on and on.  One wonders whether some of that isn't because of the fall or what.  One wonders whether every individual plant is its own "independent" spirit or whether perhaps plant life is simply part of the Earth's spirit.  Or...?  Scripture says all things were made spiritually before they were made physically.  The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom certainly gives a new perspective on pests.  Whatever the case, I'm still confident that after the resurrection, things will be better (whatever "better" means).

39 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Do you mean the same as our spirits? Or the same as they were in mortality? I was  vaguely imagining that a human would have a human spirit, and a cat would become a spirit cat, and a tick a spirit tick.

I think he was suggesting that not all spirits are the same in intelligence, in "value" (for lack of a better word), and perhaps even in their eternal nature.  (We don't have anything solid on that question.)  But we do have some stuff:

Quote

D&C 77:2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse?
A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

Our spirits and bodies look more or less the same (one has to account for physical defects that will not be there after the resurrection, and aren't there in our spirits).  And speaking of the Millennium, Isaiah said:

Quote

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Presumably even the enmity between dog and flea will one day end.

Quote

D&C 101:26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face.

And why this (bold below), unless at least some animals have an eternal existence?  Perhaps it's for our sake rather than the animal's, but still.

Quote

D&C 49:19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

Anywho, like @estradling75 said, we don't have a ton revealed about animals and their spirits.

Edited July 11, 2024 by zil2

[Jamie123]

18 minutes ago, zil2 said:

The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom certainly gives a new perspective on pests

Funnily enough I've had that book on my shelf for about 20 years, but never got round to reading it. Now I'm intrigued enough to read it I'll probably find it's missing.