I've decided not to investigate the Church any longer.

[kona0197]

For various reasons I've decided to quit investigating the Church.

One of the main things that got me thinking was that the Bible says you will know a prophet by his words. If what he says comes to pass he is a Prophet.

Joseph Smith made several prophecies that didn't come true.

The Bible also says that if even one prophecy fails to come true then that person is a false prophet.

I believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He may have been a good man but not a prophet. Many of his teachings are very questionable.

I'll hang around but I'll not be going to Church.

[inquirer_Jn1717]

and where will you go now?

[a-train]

For various reasons I've decided to quit investigating the Church.

One of the main things that got me thinking was that the Bible says you will know a prophet by his words. If what he says comes to pass he is a Prophet.

Did you check all your info?

Joseph Smith made several prophecies that didn't come true.

For instance?

The Bible also says that if even one prophecy fails to come true then that person is a false prophet.

Not that I am arguing with the notion, but what verse says this?

I believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He may have been a good man but not a prophet. Many of his teachings are very questionable.

What is a prophet to you?

-a-train

[WillowTheWhisp]

Have you actually prayed to know if Joseph Smith is a prophet? Have you prayed to know if the Book of Mormon is true?

For every person who can 'prove' something to you there is another person who can 'prove' the opposite. The only way you can know for sure is by the Holy Ghost.

It took me about a year to figure that one out.

[tree]

where in the bible does it say about (not even one prophecy) and what prophecies didnt come true? and what teachings are questionable? tree

[kona0197]

Here are some of the prophicies of Joseph Smith that did not come true:

Jesus would have returned in 1891 (Documentary History of the Church (DHC) 2:182)

The Civil War would have poured out upon all Nations (D&C 87:1-3)

The wicked of Smith's generation would have been "swept from off the face of the land" (DHC 1:315)

A temple would have been built in Independence Missouri by the generation living in 1832 (D&C 84:4,5)

Look up False Prophet sometime in your Bibles. I will track down that scripture later.

[NeuroTypical]

For anyone interested, here is a source listing of many good articles dealing with the issue of Joseph's supposedly false propecies.

FAIR "Failed Prophecies" links

LM

[WillowTheWhisp]

OK, lets take #1 -"Jesus would have returned in 1891"

Let's look at Doctrine and Covenants and see what Joseph Smith actually said. (D&C 130:14-15).

"I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."

So you do a quick calculation and work out that Joseph was born in 1805 and would be 85 in 1890/91 and conclude that it means the Saviour would return then, but that is not actually what it says. There's an 'if' in there. IF Joseph lived to be 85 he would see Christ. The first valid thing worth pointing out is that Joseph didn't live to be 85 and it was never prophesied that he would. The second point worth considering is that he was only told that he would see the Son of Man - he wasn't told that the whole earth would, so whichever way you look at it, this is not a prophecy of the date of the second coming. It's more like the Saviour saying 'stop pestering me about it. that's all I'm going to say on the subject." It is also worth noting that Jesus himself said that he doesn't know. Only the Father knows. (But then again to a Trinitarian that wouldn't mean anything if Jesus and God are the same person would it?)

Joseph then goes on to say in verse 16:

"I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face"

#2. The American Civil war was not poured out upon all nations but WAR was - twice with WWI and WWII and numerous other wars between and since. It seems that the whole world is constantly in some sort of fighting.

#3. This reminds me of Jonah's prophecy about the destruction of Ninevah. Are we therefore to dismiss Jonah as a false prophet and have his book removed from the Bible?

#4. Look up prophecies in your Bible of things which would happen 'in this generation' and which have not happened yet!

#5. I think you may be referring to Deuteronomy 18:21-22 What you need to bear in mind though when using that scripture is whether or not the prophecy contains an 'if'.

[inquirer_Jn1717]

OK, lets take #1 -"Jesus would have returned in 1891"

Let's look at Doctrine and Covenants and see what Joseph Smith actually said. (D&C 130:14-15).

"I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."

...What you need to bear in mind though when using that scripture is whether or not the prophecy contains an 'if'.

What are these words actually saying? I think you have mis-read them to mean: "Dear Joseph, if you manage to live till you're 85 then I'll come and visit you for a personal chat." But it is absurd, I think, to intimate that the second coming or even a secret visit to earth by Jesus would hinge on anybody's life expectancy, or to say that the whole thing was called off because Joseph Smith died at 34(?).

Instead, the meaning is more like: "I am coming in [1800 whenever] and if you live that long you'll get to see it." Grammatically speaking, this passage describes when the second coming will happen, regardless of Joseph Smith's life span.

However, I would believe that any guess on setting a date is automatically wrong and Jesus would never cave in to anyone by ever giving any kind of hint other than what he has already said. We have already been told what kinds of signs to look for preceding His coming.

Kona: do not abandon faith, seek ever more diligently for the truth.

[Palerider]

Here are some of the prophicies of Joseph Smith that did not come true:

Jesus would have returned in 1891 (Documentary History of the Church (DHC) 2:182)

The Civil War would have poured out upon all Nations (D&C 87:1-3)

The wicked of Smith's generation would have been "swept from off the face of the land" (DHC 1:315)

A temple would have been built in Independence Missouri by the generation living in 1832 (D&C 84:4,5)

Look up False Prophet sometime in your Bibles. I will track down that scripture later.

oooohhhhh my......quit reading anti lit......

[Misshalfway]

For various reasons I've decided to quit investigating the Church.

One of the main things that got me thinking was that the Bible says you will know a prophet by his words. If what he says comes to pass he is a Prophet.

Joseph Smith made several prophecies that didn't come true.

The Bible also says that if even one prophecy fails to come true then that person is a false prophet.

I believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He may have been a good man but not a prophet. Many of his teachings are very questionable.

I'll hang around but I'll not be going to Church.

Hey! just a little question. Why did you start investigating in the first place? Did you ever read the Book of Mormon entirely? I am just wondering.

Have a great day.

[Guest Malcolm]

kona:

Have you read a book called "The Easter Deception"? It is quite an elaborate, be it full of conjecture and suppositions, attempt to deny teh divinity of Christ and the resurrection. If you are not a Christian, or if your knowledge and understanding of Christianity is not sufficient you will have a every good excuse not to believe in Christ.

I do not know what your sources are but before you make a statement, especially about what is or not "prophesy" you should study ALL the available evidence, especially eyewitness accounts. Are you studying because you want to know or did you already made up our mind and all you want is to contend? I just want to understand your position.

Our Hebrew bretheren, even today, do not believe Isaiah 53 is talking about the Messiah/Christ. And they wrote the book, mind you. That goes to show that people can make p their minds and take a position completely divorced from reality, logic or even faith. I think you should wait to form an opinion about Joseph Smith until you had a chance to heard all the evidence, not just the "prosecutors."

Just a thought.

[miztrniceguy]

i do not beleive the original poster was ever a true investigator

[kona0197]

"Kona: do not abandon faith, seek ever more diligently for the truth."

I am seeking truth. I just wish to not follow a false prophet.

"Hey! just a little question. Why did you start investigating in the first place? Did you ever read the Book of Mormon entirely? I am just wondering.

Have a great day."

Yes I read the Book Of Mormon. All of it. I also have read the D & C and Pearl of Great Price.

"i do not beleive the original poster was ever a true investigator"

So for the last year the Missionaries didn't stop by and I didn't read everything I could about the Mormons and I didn't go to Sacrament meetings. Whatever.

[Palerider]

sounds like an anti to me......

[kona0197]

Oh I'm not anti-Mormon. You guys can follow whatever religion you like. I didn't start this thread to be anti-mormon. I started this thread to tell ppl that I'm choosing to follow a different path.

[Palerider]

Oh I'm not anti-Mormon. You guys can follow whatever religion you like. I didn't start this thread to be anti-mormon. I started this thread to tell ppl that I'm choosing to follow a different path.

\

[Heather]

Oh I'm not anti-Mormon. You guys can follow whatever religion you like. I didn't start this thread to be anti-mormon. I started this thread to tell ppl that I'm choosing to follow a different path.

That's fine, but you haven't responded to any of the refutes to your claim he was a false Prophet. That’s why it seems to others on the board that you’re anti-Mormon, rather than you have been investigating the Church for a year. If that was the case, one would think that you’d want to seek further evidence of these claims.

[kona0197]

I'm currently looking into those claims. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks Heather.

[jadams_4040]

For various reasons I've decided to quit investigating the Church.

One of the main things that got me thinking was that the Bible says you will know a prophet by his words. If what he says comes to pass he is a Prophet.

Joseph Smith made several prophecies that didn't come true.

The Bible also says that if even one prophecy fails to come true then that person is a false prophet.

I believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He may have been a good man but not a prophet. Many of his teachings are very questionable.

I'll hang around but I'll not be going to Church.

Are you sure yer not just looking for a reason?:)

[Moksha]

Oh I'm not anti-Mormon. You guys can follow whatever religion you like. I didn't start this thread to be anti-mormon. I started this thread to tell ppl that I'm choosing to follow a different path.

We all must decide our own path. I wish you well on your spiritual path.

[WANDERER]

I think being upfront and honest about 'how things are' is good and I wish you well.

[ztodd]

The claims that the prophecies you listed didn't come true are just obscure bits of trivia / history that have been misinterpreted. They're not a good basis for dismissing the church. The church is not built on those things.

I hope you can come to gain the witness of the Holy Ghost that God and His son as well as other heavenly messengers really did come down and visit the prophet Joseph personally to instruct him in organizing the kingdom of God once again on the earth. This is what the church is built on. If you can gain a witness of that, then it becomes much easier to exercise faith in all the other various principles. You really can know for sure if it's true or not, because God really does answer prayers.

[kona0197]

Never thought about it that way...

[Elgama]

I have a question how do you know the Bible is the Word of God? and that Jesus is the Son of God?

From my point of view as I wasn't entirely Christian if the Book of Mormon isn't the Word of God neither is the Bible as for me the Holy Ghost and my Heavenly Father are the source of my testimony in both. And if the Bible isn't the Word of God then what it has to say about prophets isn't particularly important. Because quite frankly there is enough evidence that the Bible might not be.

-Charley