New “Hymn?”

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The first item is also the zero item when talking about place holders.

• 0 through 9 are the single digit numbers.
• 10 through 99 are the two digit numbers.

Look at the 10 for a minute.  It is the FIRST two digit number.  But the second digit of that number is "0".  So, the first is also the zero.

when looking at the single digit numbers, we have to include the zero, do we not? And there are 10 numerical values we can put in every decimal column.  Which is the first value used in the first of all the values of the same number of digits?

It depends.

With single digit numbers, "0" is first.  But zero on its own is not a valuable counter.  It is more like we're saying that "we haven't started counting yet.  But it is still the first value for any column.  Even binary requires 0 as a value.  Thus it must be included as a number.  And it is the first that fills the column.

In fact, one could argue that implied zeroes are always present.

It could be argued that we don't start 2 digit numbers with a 1.  We start with zero.

0, 1, 2, 3... could correctly (though not traditionally) begin with a zero in the second, third, fourth,... columns.

01, 02, 03, 04...

010, 011, 012, 013, 014 ...

 

I seriously regret having to give a person like you (that is well above the intellectual norm) an elementary lesson in number theory.  The fist lesson that is taught in mathematics revolves around the “counting numbers” of number theory.  Zero does not belong to the set of counting numbers.  You can look it up for yourself – you do not need to take my word for it.

Anciently counting numbers were the only numbers generally understood, and this little fact is imbedded in serious flaws in Biblical versions of our modern translations of the Bible.  For example, we read that Jesus was dead in the tomb for 3 days when in reality he was not there for more than a day and a half when calculating a 24-hour day.  Another example is the confusion over the time it took the “Wise Men” of the East to come to visit the Christ Child.  It is thought to be two years when it could have been (actually possible to have been) less than a month.

I also thought that you are a computer whiz – which should mean that you understand the history of programming.  I know this will date me but there was a time that I could add, subtract, multiple and divide in binary, octal, hex and decimal numbers without a calculator.  I also recall the old joke that Halloween and Christmas were the same day, and I could prove it.  Any good computer programmer knows that an octal 31 (Halloween - Oct 31) = decimal 25 (Christmas - Dec 25).

For anyone interested, numbers of different bases has had an impact on history.  It is my theory that Abraham was taught and understood base 60 numbers that were first thought to be used by the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians.  Though my theory differs from the accepted thought – I theorize that base 60 numbers were used to provide a ratio for standardizing dimensional space time that shows up in the Book of Abraham chapter 3.  The ancient Egyptians established the Karnak temple as the meridian of space time – which was believed to be the means to navigate to anywhere – including to the divine kingdom of heaven.  I know this does not seem so important, but we still navigate in space and time today using base 60 numbers.  Understanding the significance of including zero into our modern number theory is important in order to understand the ratio of mathematics and science.

 

The Traveler

Edited March 4 by Traveler

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Zero does not belong to the set of counting numbers.

Yeah, well tell that to Isaac Asimov.  

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Anciently counting numbers were the only numbers generally understood, and this little fact is imbedded in serious flaws in Biblical versions of our modern translations of the Bible.  For example, we read that Jesus was dead in the tomb for 3 days when in reality he was not there for more than a day and a half when calculating a 24-hour day.  Another example is the confusion over the time it took the “Wise Men” of the East to come to visit the Christ Child.  It is thought to be two years when it could have been (actually possible to have been) less than a month.

This is roughly similar to the pattern found in many eastern cultures.  I believe I had posted why I was considered 1 year old on the day of my birth in Korea.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I also thought that you are a computer whiz – which should mean that you understand the history of programming. 

Nope.  I learned BASIC as an 11 yo.  But that was about it.  I had been taught a few other programming languages in college.  But I never used them in the professional world.  So, I lost any fluency in those languages.  But I do, from time-to-time, use Visual Basic for macros in Excel.

So, I don't think I'd be called a "computer whiz" anymore.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I know this will date me but there was a time that I could add, subtract, multiple and divide in binary, octal, hex and decimal numbers without a calculator.

Back in the day, I could do that.  But being away from programming for so long, I fell out of the practice.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 I also recall the old joke that Halloween and Christmas were the same day, and I could prove it.  Any good computer programmer knows that an octal 31 (Halloween - Oct 31) = decimal 25 (Christmas - Dec 25).

Yes, that's a classic.  Let's see if you can decode this:

Talk 7+68+66 to me.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

For anyone interested, numbers of different bases has had an impact on history.  It is my theory that Abraham was taught and understood base 60 numbers that were first thought to be used by the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians.  Though my theory differs from the accepted thought – I theorize that base 60 numbers were used to provide a ratio for standardizing dimensional space time that shows up in the Book of Abraham chapter 3.

I'd like to see a source for that. 

It isn't quite accurate to call the Babylonian numbering system to be "base 60."  What I mean by this is that a "base" indicates a multiple by which we increase with each digit.  And that is NOT how the Babylonian system behaved.  They behaved exactly the same way as our system, but they simply ended at 60 instead of going to 90.

We still see vestiges of that in some other nations.  In French, they have a word for 60 (soixante).  But the numbers for 70 and up are math driven.  70 = 60+10 (soixante-dix).  80 = 4x20 (quatre-vingts). 90=4x20+10 (quatr-vingts-dix).  But if you go to the French quarter of Switzerland, they have their own terms for 70, 80, & 90.  I don't know what they are.  But I knew a Swiss speaker and...

They chose 60 because 60 is a highly composite number (factors: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30).  Thus it is a useful value for dividing up merchandize, soldiers, lands, and other commodities.

Also, Babylonians had an implied zero symbol rather than an explicit zero.  It was a null place holder (as you say, a non-counting number).  But whether you consider it counting or not, the space-holder is absolutey imperative to communicate the overall value of the number that we are representing.

I'm assuming Abraham had access to Egyptian systems. Their numbering was nothing like Babylonian.  And it was also not a base 60 system.  It was originally a base 5 system.  But later years, they expanded it into a decimal system, much like ours.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

  The ancient Egyptians established the Karnak temple as the meridian of space time – which was believed to be the means to navigate to anywhere – including to the divine kingdom of heaven.  I know this does not seem so important, but we still navigate in space and time today using base 60 numbers.  Understanding the significance of including zero into our modern number theory is important in order to understand the ratio of mathematics and science.

I don't know anything about what you're saying here.  So, I cannot comment.

Edited March 4 by Carborendum

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Zero does not belong to the set of counting numbers.

But zero is a number.  If you don't count it, it will feel left out, and there will be lots of holes in your math.  Teacher, "What's 10 + 2?"  Student, "Well, we don't count zero, so, 3."

 

Alternate:

Mother: "Count the number of dresses in your closet."

Daughter: "I can't."

Mother: "Why not?"

Daughter: "Zero is not a counting number!"

Mother: "I see.  Well, then we'd better go buy you a dress so you can count how many you have!"

  This is much more fun than math.

 

Other alternate (imagine a kindergarten classroom where the students are numbers):

Teacher: "Now class, I want you to count from 1 to 10."

All but one student: "One, two, three ... ten."

Teacher: "Zero, why weren't you counting?"

Zero: "I'm not a counting number."

Teacher: "Go sit in the corner!"

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, well tell that to Isaac Asimov.  

👍🏽

[NeuroTypical]

On 3/4/2025 at 12:43 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I've been asked to play guitar to accompany our ward choir singing This Little Light of Mine on Easter Sunday.

My my, how times have changed.

 

Guitar, huh?   Well, at least it's not a brass instrument.

 

 

I hate to see a cultural change ruin a perfectly good joke.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Guitar, huh?

And strumming it too!