Satan did not want to become like G-d!

[Traveler]

There are some problems with the way some interpret the Bible and the doctrine that Satan wanted to be like G-d.

First let us realize that Satan is a liar. The Bible tells us that Satan said he would ascend above G-d. He has never wanted to be like G-d and nothing he has ever done is anything like G-d. Satan wanted to remove G-d as the King of heaven and make himself king and call himself the undisputed king of heaven – but Satan does not want to be like G-d the Father, G-d the Son or G-d the Holy Ghost.

If those that believe man should not seek to become like G-d would kindly point what about G-d should man not seek to emulate. His love? His compassion? His willingness to sacrifice? His use of power to lift and help others? What???

The Traveler

[L_and_P21]

Dont get it. what are you pointing out? or are you just trying to start a fight? when i read this it sounds like you are mad at someone. please explain where your argument came from.

i have no reason to disagree with anything you said

[inthearmsofsleep]

I think I see your point. Some people have a problem with the fact that we believe we can all become like God someday, and view this as a blasphemous doctrine and say that it's akin to what Satan desires. This is not true, of course, because God wants all of us to be perfect, to be like he is, and to be happy as he is. How could he want us to make righteous decisions and emulate him and at the same time believe that we can never become like him? What then, is the point of progressing through righteousness and living each day purer than the last?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yes, I too know what you are saying because people have used the idea to criticise our church by saying that in claiming that we aim to be like Heavenly Father we are emulating Lucifer who was thrown out of Heaven for just that thing, when in actual fact they have misunderstood the scriptures. Lucifer haad no wish to glorify God - he wanted all the glory for himself. That was his aim, which is far different to ours of wanting to become like our Father and always to praise and glorify him. Jesus Christ said, "Be ye also perfect, even as my Father which is in Heaven is perfect." To aspire to such perfection is anything but blasphemous.

[Hemidakota]

There are some problems with the way some interpret the Bible and the doctrine that Satan wanted to be like G-d.

First let us realize that Satan is a liar. The Bible tells us that Satan said he would ascend above G-d. He has never wanted to be like G-d and nothing he has ever done is anything like G-d. Satan wanted to remove G-d as the King of heaven and make himself king and call himself the undisputed king of heaven – but Satan does not want to be like G-d the Father, G-d the Son or G-d the Holy Ghost.

If those that believe man should not seek to become like G-d would kindly point what about G-d should man not seek to emulate. His love? His compassion? His willingness to sacrifice? His use of power to lift and help others? What???

The Traveler

Let me correct this statement...Lucifer or the Son of the Morning wasn't a liar until he was casted out when he did become Satan. He was well love by many prior to his downfall. How could one lead astray over a third of the host from among Father’s children if he wasn't that well love?

Yes, he wanted that position as part of the Godhead. He knew he could not have that true god attribute until he could receive that portion of the mortal embodiment, along with the glory of that position [savior].

Now, the question is why was he upset when the Father chooses Jehovah over Lucifer? I proposed something here that may help. When you compare Cain and Abel, whom would the rights of the first born be given? When you look at Esau and Jacob, whom would the rights of the first born be given? Perhaps, in this quest in searching the answer on why would the Son of the Morning fall in receiving his answer that he was not acceptable for the Savior’s role lies in those in mortal world that present the same issue.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Satan still is well-loved by many. Being a liar doesn't seem to prevent someone from being popular and leading many others astray with false promises.

[Hemidakota]

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. What caused this individual whom was loved [Read D&C 76:26] make such a vast change to his character. His demeanor, changed after his fall.

[prisonchaplain]

There are some problems with the way some interpret the Bible and the doctrine that Satan wanted to be like G-d.

First let us realize that Satan is a liar. The Bible tells us that Satan said he would ascend above G-d. He has never wanted to be like G-d and nothing he has ever done is anything like G-d. Satan wanted to remove G-d as the King of heaven and make himself king and call himself the undisputed king of heaven – but Satan does not want to be like G-d the Father, G-d the Son or G-d the Holy Ghost.

Traveler, it may be that you misunderstand those who teach that Satan wanted to become like God. Those of us who say this know full-well that he has no desire to take on the character of God. Rather, he wants the position, the power, the adoration that God receives.

If those that believe man should not seek to become like G-d would kindly point what about G-d should man not seek to emulate. His love? His compassion? His willingness to sacrifice? His use of power to lift and help others? What???

The Traveler

Perhaps you are using wordplay and irony to make a point? Some might misinterpret your effort as misrepresentation--employ a strawman fallacy tactic.

[Hemidakota]

We can clearly see, Lucifer had a flawed character trait; namely selfishness [see Moses 4:1, Isaiah 14:9-13, Ezekiel 31:10, and so forth].

[Hemidakota]

Lucifer's next notable flawed character trait; Jealousy [see Moses 1:12, Moses 4:3, Moses 6:49]. There are other flawed character traits I could list when studying the evil of humanity but the point here, what made this 'Son of Morning' to fall?

Getting back to your first statement, I think the answer should be for us is to seek to emulate the Savior as told in D&C 121:41.

[Misshalfway]

If those that believe man should not seek to become like G-d would kindly point what about G-d should man not seek to emulate. His love? His compassion? His willingness to sacrifice? His use of power to lift and help others? What???

The Traveler

Could you explain to me what you mean by this statement, Travelor? I see what you are saying about Satan....that he was a liar (the BOM calls him the Father of all lies). No one would argue about that one with you.

[inthearmsofsleep]

If those that believe man should not seek to become like G-d would kindly point what about G-d should man not seek to emulate. His love? His compassion? His willingness to sacrifice? His use of power to lift and help others? What???

The Traveler

Could you explain to me what you mean by this statement, Travelor? I see what you are saying about Satan....that he was a liar (the BOM calls him the Father of all lies). No one would argue about that one with you.

Traveler's just saying that we shouldn't be ashamed to emulate God. Everything of him is perfect, so why should we not seek to become like him?

[prisonchaplain]

Yes, I too know what you are saying because people have used the idea to criticise our church by saying that in claiming that we aim to be like Heavenly Father we are emulating Lucifer who was thrown out of Heaven for just that thing, when in actual fact they have misunderstood the scriptures. Lucifer haad no wish to glorify God - he wanted all the glory for himself. That was his aim, which is far different to ours of wanting to become like our Father and always to praise and glorify him. Jesus Christ said, "Be ye also perfect, even as my Father which is in Heaven is perfect." To aspire to such perfection is anything but blasphemous.

Perhaps it would help for us to explore what Satan tempted Adam & Eve with. Was he really just telling them that if they ate the forbidden fruit they would become good and godly, just like the Heavenly Father? Or...was he promising them sovereignty, power and control? I would suggest the latter, and that Satan's fall was indeed for the same self-deluded glory-seeking.

[Traveler]

Perhaps it would help for us to explore what Satan tempted Adam & Eve with. Was he really just telling them that if they ate the forbidden fruit they would become good and godly, just like the Heavenly Father? Or...was he promising them sovereignty, power and control? I would suggest the latter, and that Satan's fall was indeed for the same self-deluded glory-seeking.

It is LDS doctrine that Satan told Adam and Eve that in order to become like G-d it was necessary to know good from evil. This type of lie looks like the truth but is a lie because of what it excludes. Although both Satan and G-d know the difference between good and evil; G-d has chosen to commit him self, by covenant, to good. Satan, on the other hand, has chosen a covenant of evil.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Could you explain to me what you mean by this statement, Travelor? I see what you are saying about Satan....that he was a liar (the BOM calls him the Father of all lies). No one would argue about that one with you.

Traveler's just saying that we shouldn't be ashamed to emulate God. Everything of him is perfect, so why should we not seek to become like him?

Not only should we not be ashamed - it is a requirement of worship.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Let me correct this statement...Lucifer or the Son of the Morning wasn't a liar until he was casted out when he did become Satan. He was well love by many prior to his downfall. How could one lead astray over a third of the host from among Father’s children if he wasn't that well love?

Yes, he wanted that position as part of the Godhead. He knew he could not have that true god attribute until he could receive that portion of the mortal embodiment, along with the glory of that position [savior].

Now, the question is why was he upset when the Father chooses Jehovah over Lucifer? I proposed something here that may help. When you compare Cain and Abel, whom would the rights of the first born be given? When you look at Esau and Jacob, whom would the rights of the first born be given? Perhaps, in this quest in searching the answer on why would the Son of the Morning fall in receiving his answer that he was not acceptable for the Savior’s role lies in those in mortal world that present the same issue.

A couple of notes: According to LDS doctrine. Satan was a liar from the beginning. What-ever beginning means?

Also when we speak of "first born" it does not necessarily require that we mean the oldest. The Hebrew term is loosely translated as oldest born but it really means highest or most noble born. If you ask for “first class” accommodations you most likely do not mean the oldest available.

It is interesting to me that in the scriptures that give a type and shadow of spiritual things that whenever two “brothers” dispute over the birth right, it is given to the youngest. I know of no exception.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

If the heavens [spirits] wept over this spirit fall, I doubt he was a liar in the beginning. Perhaps, with having those poor character traits were his weakness. .

I was pressing upon the Hebrew meaning of what is termed the Eldest Son was considered the first born.

Excellent analysis…. :)

[Guest User-Removed]

There are some problems with the way some interpret the Bible and the doctrine that Satan wanted to be like G-d.

First let us realize that Satan is a liar. The Bible tells us that Satan said he would ascend above G-d. He has never wanted to be like G-d and nothing he has ever done is anything like G-d. Satan wanted to remove G-d as the King of heaven and make himself king and call himself the undisputed king of heaven – but Satan does not want to be like G-d the Father, G-d the Son or G-d the Holy Ghost.

If those that believe man should not seek to become like G-d would kindly point what about G-d should man not seek to emulate. His love? His compassion? His willingness to sacrifice? His use of power to lift and help others? What???

The Traveler

I'm not sure that this view is doctrinal in the LDS context???

[Guest User-Removed]

"Now, the question is why was he upset when the Father chooses Jehovah over Lucifer? I proposed something here that may help. When you compare Cain and Abel, whom would the rights of the first born be given?"

Hemi...just a sidebar here...I'm not sure that Cain and Abel were the first born??? I'd have to look back, but I suspect that there were many before them???

[tiancum]

Let me correct this statement (Ill correct yers then. /wink)...Lucifer or the Son of the Morning wasn't a liar until he was casted out when he did become Satan. He was cast out for OPEN rebellion...not lying... He was a liar from the beginning, according to scripture. DnC 93 if i remember right) He was well love by many prior to his downfall. How could one lead astray over a third of the host from among Father’s children if he wasn't that well love?

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; 37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels...

Yes, he wanted that position as part of the Godhead. He wanted to dethrone GOD. He would have overthrown all three, (or should i say, ONE) there would have been no need of any of them in his plan. ALL for himself... He knew he could not have that true god attribute until he could receive that portion of the mortal embodiment, along with the glory of that position [savior].

His goal was absolute power. He wanted to deprive us of choice, knowing that we would never grow to be like him, if we weren't permitted to grow. We would forever be his slaves. He would always have absolute power over us.

He is still trying to carry out his plan, enslave us, and dethrone our Father...at least individually for each of us.

REmember, it was the father's plan that Christ accepted, Satan,....(i guess he was still lucifer back then....), proposed a plan that he had already formulated (and had a following) to dethrone God.

Now, the question is why was he upset when the Father chooses Jehovah over Lucifer? I proposed something here that may help. When you compare Cain and Abel, whom would the rights of the first born be given? When you look at Esau and Jacob, whom would the rights of the first born be given? When the plans were proposed, there could have been no jealousy about who the father would send, until after the choice was made. Therefore, the cause could not have been jealousy. Perhaps, in this quest in searching the answer on why would the Son of the Morning fall in receiving his answer that he was not acceptable for the Savior’s role lies in those in mortal world that present the same issue.

He didn't fall as a result of not having his plan chosen. He fell because he proposed something against the Father's plan and was exposed. His "open rebellion" happened the minute he proposed a plan that would enslave us, and dethrone his father.

The OP was correct, Satan did not desire to be like the father at all. The father wants to share his power, and have us become like Him. Satan wanted us to forever be his inferior, his slaves.

[Guest tomk]

More to the point, what Satan wanted to bring about was in violation of eternal law. God had to cast out Satan, or lose His honor with the intelligences of the universe.

God cannot go against eternal law and maintain His standing.

[Hemidakota]

I agree. HIS glory is HIS honor, which means, the Intelligences whom are independent will obey HIM. Something that Lucifer wanted in the beginning. Though, I do know, he did not understand fully the plan of GOD in the beginning. If he did, he would not bother to show up to the Garden of Eden, thus leaving Adam and Eve in the garden.

[rayhale]

Satan STILL doesn’t fully understand God’s plan. He can never understand it. He gave that right to understand when he decided to fall from grace. I feel I should point out that we say ‘fall’, suggesting that it was involuntary, yet he knew what he was doing, he knew it as soon as he uttered those words of Treason of the Highest degree.

[prisonchaplain]

Fent, there are some "end times fiction" novels that grapple with this very concept. They argue that the Antichrist will openly defy God, and convince people that Satan the true liberator, whereas God wanted to keep men enslaved and fully submitted. The Christ Clone Trilogy probably handles this with the most sophistication.

[Guest tomk]

A correct understanding of the nature of God is so important.

Based upon my interactions with Him, He is not prone to the petty feelings and indulgences in pride that we like to think Him capable or culpable of.

We really are infants, let's remember. He is the mature adult of our species. His thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are not our ways.

About the 1/3 hosts of heaven. We often forget who the 1/3 was. We somehow think of them as a different species almost. We forget that these were precious children of our Father in Heaven. They are still precious to Him. He warns us about them because they are bent on our destruction...that is true. He cannot stand by and let them destroy us without offering a merciful means of extrication (think Atonement, think guidance of the Holy Ghost). But that does not mean that those 1/3 are not loved and deeply missed by Father. I don't think they were cast out. I think they left. They had to leave, for their decision to try and destroy our agency made it such that they could no longer stay.