Defying Mormon perfectionism

[Moksha]

Malcolm, boy did you misread her post.

Could have been a late night accompanied by an early morning Church schedule - I know it makes me groggy.

[crytsprospect]

I think perfectionism in its self is ok. Like the carpenter exact is important. I think the word is more like self rightous that we have problems with. I have severe depression and serious pain issues, my husband is't active snd many assume because I always don't attend I'm not being true to my faith and I am. Going to church is important but being a member is more than just attending meetings Its who I am . I haven't read anywhere that we all have to dress alike and all look alike and all like the same things. I live in the mountains and 50 miles from our meetinghouse my lifestyle is far different from the city members . I respect their choices and love them . I just want them to do the same. Life is hard enough with out the ones who are suppose to help build you up judging you and pulling you down. I just try to remember I'm ok and I choose Jesus plan before I came and continue my journey on this earth the best I can . This site is great for me to be able to learn, read , and grow reading all the posts. I feel less isolated. I am a loner of sorts and feel more connected to the church with sites like this and the Church site and BYU TV. I can continue my sunday school study even if I miss a class. My computer is an awsome way for me to be closer to the church in learning about the gospel and members.

[Guest Malcolm]

My apologies. Perhaps I misunderstood the statement of "except for some issues with a porn addiction (never indulge but its there)"

Language is an approximation of thought and writing a very distant cousin. Perhaps the phrasing was ambiguous thus my confusion. You either have an addiction or you don't. If a person recovered from an illness or condition one does not refer to it as "having" the condition in present tense.

I stand corrected.

[VoluntaryPrison]

This one is just too much fun to not indulge myself in. As a disclaimer, let me first say this: I am the most arrogant, self-righteous, and judgmental person I know. Just keep that in mind as I say whatever else comes out here.

First of all, I can't stand Mormons. In the ward I'm in now, I don't even talk to anyone anymore because I just find them so uninteresting. There are a handful that I like, but not so much that I go out of my way to make friends with them. But the majority of them just plain irritate me, and ironically, the vast majority of mormons that I can't stand do come from Utah. Here are some of the things I can't stand about them, ranked in descending order

5. Celebrating Christmas -- For some reason, Mormons can't get started early enough. When I went to college in Utah, I kept on running into people that insisted that we start singing the Christmas hymns around the time of Halloween. When I suggested that perhaps it was a little early I was looked at like I was Atheist.

4. The Us Against the World Mentality -- I've noticed that a great many mormons think the entire world is pitted against the Church, that we're still mocked and persecuted on a criminal scale. What they don't seem to recognize is that the world reveres us for many of our decisions.

3. I do my calling and nothing else -- I once moved into a new area and the Church didn't operate a scout troop there at the time. So I went out and volunteered in a community based troop. I was met with shock by people because I was working in scouts without having been called by the Bishopric to do it. To look at them, I think some of them truly thought I was insane.

2. "When I was on my mission" -- When I hear these words I automatically stop listening. It doesn't bother me as much when it's said by someone who has only been out of service for a few months, but I hear it all the time from people who have finished their degrees, been married, have several kids, and still, the source of all of their spiritual experiences is their mission. You'd think something spiritual would have happened since they finished, and if not, their mission was pretty much a waste, wasn't it?

1. Education isn't all that important for women -- This is by far the thing I despise most about mormons. I have been criticized to no end for saying that women should get a full education, even when I quote prophets. I have a friend who got her degree at MIT, decided to pursue a master's degree, and while vacationing in Utah was told on more than one occasion that there was no point, "a bachelor's degree is enough isn't it?" My sister-in-law went to BYU, and her stake president talked to the relief society in her ward and said he didn't know what they were doing there, and that they should be more focused on getting married than on getting an education (I wasn't aware that the two were mutually exclusive).

So anyway, as I said before, I'm as self-righteous as they come, so try to take this with a little humor. All told, even 'Utah Mormons' aren't all that bad. And I'm done babbling for now. What was the original point of this post anyway?

[tiancum]

To address the OP...

There is a difference between acting perfect and trying to be perfect.

Acting perfect is putting up a facade of perfection, and doing everything in our power to maintain the lie. It is, in essence, pretending to be in a place where we are not. That is why the phrase..."fake it 'till you make it" really bugs me...There is no faking in the gospel of Jesus Christ. (one of the signs that this is happening is that we are critical of others, unforgiving, vengeful, needing to be right)

Trying to be perfect, on the other hand is honestly looking inward, and seeing our shortcomings, many times, seeing them comes by revelation. Then being forthright and upfront about our faults. The promise that the Lord gives us is that if we truly come unto Him, he will show us our weakness. It is a sure bet. If we refuse to see them, then we are refusing to make the atonement meaningful in our lives. When we undertake to cover our sins, or to try to be something we are not, we are choosing not to grow. We are choosing NOT to follow Christ. WE are choosing the honors of men, or "looking good". When a person desires to "look good" we are unable to admit that we need to change....and we forget how to repent.

I believe that the dividing line between a true follower of Christ and a non-follower is the ability to truly repent. I believe that is the only way to become pure hearted and eventually "see god" in this life. Being obedient must include repentance because that is the most repeated command.

The battle I face most often in life is the battle between looking good, and being good. Many times my pride takes over, and I do foolish things....

I love how upfront Joseph was with his weakness. He never tried to hide, and even published some of his reprimands from the lord.

[FigBearingThistle]

Does anybody struggle with perfectionism inside the church culture?

Anybody confuse perfectionism with church doctrine or perhaps was raised by someone who did?

Any thoughts about the correlation between perfectionism and becoming judgemental???

Or maybe the pressure to be the perfect woman? Or be the perfect family?

Just curious about the experiences of members of the church who perhaps have been immersed in Mormon culture and what kinds of experiences you may have had in this area.

I don't know what perfectionism is. Wikipedia has this to say:

"Perfectionism, in psychology, is a belief that perfection can and should be attained. In its pathological form, it is a belief that anything less than perfect is unacceptable. At pathological levels, this is considered an unhealthy belief."

Sadly, I think that pathological perfectionism is alive and thriving in the LDS culture--especially in the U.S. This kind of perfectionism is a competitive sort of thing- and is not according to God's Plan, IMO.

Psychological Perfectionism is also taken to unhealthy extremes, and should not focus on "self". It should focus on others, it should focus on perfect love which is mentioned in the scriptures.

Also, the scripture verse says "Where much is given, much is required." and NOT Where much is given much is expected.

Things like "the perfect mom" "perfect parent" are silly, unhealthy, undefinable, and are set upon unstable expectations of others, rather than on clearly defined scriptural requirements. Striving to be the "perfect parent" seems to focus too much on self pride to me.

[COUNTRYBEAR]

When christ rose from the dead and appeared unto Mary he say touch me not for I am not yet perfect for I have not assended to my father in heaven. Perfecting the saints, as a people and personally will not happen in this life time. We have the millenium awaiting us. In the end it dosent matter to the saviour where on the ladder of perfection your are so long as you are progressing in the right direction

[Ray A]

If perfectionism is a source of angst for you, read some J. Golden Kimball stories and lighten up.

The Official J. Golden Kimball Site

[SMG]

Ahhh, perfectionism. There's a reason why I haven't gotten up the guts to go to a single RS meeting in over a year. I don't like feeling as if I am "defective" for not being slim, beautiful and blonde with a husband and a raving pack of kidlets. Don't get me wrong, I like kids. In fact, my favorite kind are the ones you can spoil rotten and then send back to Mommy and Daddy.

I love going to sacrament and Sunday school, because I feel so spiritually fed and welcomed. That changes the second I step into RS. =( The last time I went, I had to flee the meeting close to tears. Perhaps it is all in my head, but that feeling of "if you are aren't like the rest of us ladies, you aren't welcome!" feels so awful.

[Ray A]

That changes the second I step into RS. =( The last time I went, I had to flee the meeting close to tears. Perhaps it is all in my head, but that feeling of "if you are aren't like the rest of us ladies, you aren't welcome!" feels so awful.

Please elaborate. What alienated you?

[Hemidakota]

What Ray said....I am curious to know what happen.

[SMG]

I'm afraid that a ward member may be on this site and I really don't want to offend them or come across as a whiner. However, I've been informed that there may be more than just me who feels this way.

Where do I start? Well, when I was a child, my mother was widowed rather suddenly. If Mom so much as said "hello" to any married man who wasn't the bishop, she was treated like a stray dog. I've seen that happen to other single women as well. Heck, even the bishop's wife wasn't nice about it, either. I've taken to avoiding talking to married men more than absolutely necessary lest I get the "death ray glare" from some irate sister, too. Note to married sisters: We do NOT want to steal anyone's husband! We just want to say hello and socialize with other adults in the ward! Is that a crime?

Then there is the seeming mindset of, "if you aren't married and aren't having kids, you are less of a woman!" that I run into a lot. What about us tomboys who never "grew out of that phase?" Where do we fit? When it's just you, your mom and a disabled sister, you learn to get pretty independent pretty quick. It feels like there's this disconnect between people like me and the activities that enrichment typically has. Yes, cooking, arts and crafts are very enjoyable. But is it necessary to pound that drum all of the time?? Why not something that's more empowering, like learning to change a flat tire or learning to change the oil in your car, every once in a while?

I'm not about to sit around feeling sorry for myself that I'm still single at the "ripe" age of 26. I've chosen to pursue an education for as much as I have the stomach and funds for. What's wrong with trying to excel in your chosen area when you don't have a family of your own yet? What if, through no fault of your own, you NEVER have a family of your own? Does that make the woman some sort of leper?! I'd like to think that I could be appreciated for more than just the fact that I could potentially be a wife and mother. =/

I've been engaged twice and my heart was broken both times in a very cruel manner. Hearing the constant pushing of marriage when I pop into RS metaphorically rips off the scabs of those hurts. Sometimes it takes more than a couple of months (or years) to get over such a heartbreak. Those married sisters probably don't know how envious I feel when I see them bouncing a baby on their knee or when they go to the park with their family. I'm ashamed to admit to having envy, but I'm only human.

I'll hush up for now. I'm waiting for my mail order wheel of cheese to arrive. I'm going to make some whine out of the sour grapes.

[Hemidakota]

What state is the ward located?

[SMG]

I live in Montana, like it says in my profile.

[Hemidakota]

I did take a sec to look first before asking. Even with my poor vision; not like what they used to be. LOL Sorry.

Have you approach both the RS and Bishop, face-to-face, with your feelings?

[SMG]

Frankly, I'd rather not. I don't feel up to causing such a stir. I think it would just be easier for all involved if I stayed away from RS.

[Hemidakota]

Do you mind if I sent a copy, remaining ‘nameless’, story to Elder Steven E. Snow?

[COUNTRYBEAR]

SMG, you are not alone my ex-wife experienced similar treatment (see my marraige after 30 thread) please please please dont let it drive you away from the gospel. I did confront the bishop and relief society only to be threatened with disfellowship and finally it was suggested that we may be happier in a different ward by the high priest group leader. There are good people and wards out there but their are pockets of narrow minded society which can do tremendous damage to the soul if allowed to -trust me my Ex-wife left me and the church largly beacuse of this kind of b/s. The best thing to do is seek alternative friends from around you, and stay spiritually close to the Lord.

[Hemidakota]

SMG, done...

[HoosierGuy]

Wow. After reading this thread I'm kind of shocked! lol. I'm 36,

never married, no kids, looking for work/thinking about going back

to college, and just baptized March 8th.

Are church members in my ward looking down on me because

I'm not married and have no kids?

So far, I think I've gotten a nice reception from the ward I'm in.

one thing I have noticed, I have not talked to too many women,

just their husbands. Their husbands have been super nice tho.

I'm far from perfect. Very far. In fact, one of the reasons I wanted

Heavenly Father and the Lord in my life is to change!

[sixpacktr]

Wow. After reading this thread I'm kind of shocked! lol. I'm 36,

never married, no kids, looking for work/thinking about going back

to college, and just baptized March 8th.

Are church members in my ward looking down on me because

I'm not married and have no kids?

So far, I think I've gotten a nice reception from the ward I'm in.

one thing I have noticed, I have not talked to too many women,

just their husbands. Their husbands have been super nice tho.

I'm far from perfect. Very far. In fact, one of the reasons I wanted

Heavenly Father and the Lord in my life is to change!

I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes there is a tendency for people to think that they are being judged and thought badly of when it isn't the case.

Topics like this always make me cringe. It makes it seem like all members of the church are critical of every little thing that others do, and that church is like some big country club where what you where or who you know is more important than the spirit at the meetings. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have been in 8 Wards and Branches since I've been married, and never once, NOT ONCE, have I felt that we were looked down upon or not accepted. It is all in the way you view things. I have seen people that complained about everything in their life and those that had had the crap kicked out of them and still were profoundly happy (and were because they had the gospel in their life).

So don't be worried that somehow your ward is now looking down on you because of whatever. There are many that will do all they can to help you become the best you can be, and will love you unconditinally in the process.

[Misshalfway]

I have been a member of the church my whole life. And there are lots of different kinds of members. There are the kind that do love unconditionally. There are the kind that judge and gossip. There are the kind who sometimes stumble because they are trying so hard to be "good". There are others who have learned to accept and love themselves at whatever stage they are in.

I don't think it is a bad thing to discuss perfectionism. After the last General Conference, I was told that a website was created because some women felt the General RS pres. was asking them to be too perfect.

I think there is a lot of pressure to do everything well. The house, the kids, the calling, the testimony, the table decorations when you teach RS. I think some put a lot of pressure on themselves. I think some punish themselves for making mistakes..... not even sinful mistakes. Just human ones. I think sometimes we aren't the nicest or the most accepting when we see one of our own struggle with weight or addiction or marital issues. We are human, you know? I think it is ok to talk about the imperfections in our social structure. I think it is to be expected that perhaps we don't always get along with each other. We can learn to be kinder and more patient and less offended and less pressured. We can learn to hang tight before we judge. We can learn how to settle our differences with love. Or we can learn that sometimes things don't work themselves out perfectly with a little bow on top!

I really like Checko Okasaki's book, "Lighten Up." I think she wrote it for a reason. I think she knew that the Saints struggle with perfectionism. I think she had a lot of really great things to say. I must remember her advice the next time the road show comes along and the director needs everything to be perfect because he is convinced that it is more important than the Academy Awards!!!

PS. Thank Goodness for J. Golden Kimball. Whoever brought that up, thank you!

[SMG]

Hoosier, by and large, members are very kind and very accepting. It's just that some folks like myself have had the misfortune of running into bad apples who make us super miserable.

[WANDERER]

SMG I find the thought of putting up with that rather intimidating...the whole forever families thingy. The idea of fronting up to a service alone, without friends and family and in spite of friends and family is hard enough without putting up with additionals...but I gather it's not that way in every ward.

On further thoughts, if wives are supervising their hubbies it may be a case of 'where there's smoke there's fire'...perhaps they've had a few issues in the past with their other half. Might be a good idea to steer clear.

[sixpacktr]

I don't think it is a bad thing to discuss perfectionism. After the last General Conference, I was told that a website was created because some women felt the General RS pres. was asking them to be too perfect.

have you visited the site? It is a site created by 'stalwart' LDS women (term used very loosely) which is full of venom and rationalization and basically telling people that Sis Beck didn't 'get it'. That she was out of touch.

Guess what. We ARE expected to be perfect. GC is not a time for us to sit back and be told that all is well and that we are all doing great. There are many things that the church as a whole are doing right, but the members struggle with every sin that is in the world today.

IMO, if you are casting aspersions at others because you think they look down on you, don't you think it is a little like what you are complaining about? They judge you, make you feel uncomfortable, EXPECT YOU TO BE PERFECT, and yet you are doing the same thing--expecting them to be perfect too.

Worry about your own situation before God and let others do as they will. Quit worrying about what others are thinking about you and suddenly everybody seems nicer because you aren't condemning them because they 'condemn' you...For the most part, people don't spend that much time thinking about other's faults. If they do, that is their problem, don't you think?