Revelation through The Lord's voice

[Moroni60]

When did the prophets stop receiving revelation explicitly through The Lord's voice and stopped publishing it as so? With the recent publishing of the 1886 John Taylor revelation, it caught my eye that I never hear any of the current prophets quote "I the Lord saith" or something of the sort. Even with big ones like the 1978 revelation, Ive only heard it described as spiritual feelings. Not discounting the validity of modern revelations but studying the doctrine and covenants this year and reading the amounts of direct revelations received in the voice of the Lord for even trivial things, Im just wondering if there's a specific shift that we can point to or if there's ever been a reason given.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Moroni60 said:

When did the prophets stop receiving revelation explicitly through The Lord's voice and stopped publishing it as so? With the recent publishing of the 1886 John Taylor revelation, it caught my eye that I never hear any of the current prophets quote "I the Lord saith" or something of the sort. Even with big ones like the 1978 revelation, Ive only heard it described as spiritual feelings. Not discounting the validity of modern revelations but studying the doctrine and covenants this year and reading the amounts of direct revelations received in the voice of the Lord for even trivial things, Im just wondering if there's a specific shift that we can point to or if there's ever been a reason given.

Welcome, Moroni60!

I can’t speak for any individual prophet; but looking to my own experience in giving priesthood blessings:  there have been occasional, very rare instances where specific verbiage was given to me, but generally it was concepts or impressions that I was left to put into vocabulary as best I could.

As we go back and look at the editorial history of the D&C and the way different revelations were edited, combined/separated, or revised even between the BoC versus the first edition D&C—I am increasingly persuaded that the fact that many of the revelations in the D&C are written in the Lord’s “voice” is less a reflection of the process the Lord used in each of those instances to communicate with the Prophet; and more frequently (not always, but very often) a stylistic choice made by Joseph Smith himself.  (Mormon himself, I think, does the same thing in recording/reconstructing some of the great sermons, and perhaps visions, in the Book of Mormon; particularly in Mosiah and Alma.)  The result can be something very powerful to read—if it’s not wrong.

President Taylor’s 1886 revelation shows what can happen when the prophet gets it wrong.  I have no doubt that he was given a true revelation with some general concepts that comforted him and led him to stay on a course that was right for the Church at that time.  But I have less confidence that, when he finally put pen to paper, he was able to articulate what he’d experienced in a way that wasn’t influenced by his own experiences and hopes and sufferings. President Taylor himself seems to have shared my doubts about his own scribal process in that instance; to such an extent that he declined to present it to the Twelve for review—let alone to the Church as a whole for canonization.  And I think since his day later prophets have, generally wisely, chosen to take a more modest approach.

Edited Monday at 06:25 PM by Just_A_Guy

[zil2]

Welcome, @Moroni60!

[laronius]

I don't know if this fully answers your question but perhaps we can infer some things from it. Brigham Young, "Light of the Spirit—Laws of Health—Joy in the Gospel, &c.," August 5, 1860, Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (Liverpool: George Q. Cannon, 1861), 8:138

"No man ever preached a Gospel sermon, except by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. Without this power, there is no light in the preaching. Brother Bywater remarked that he did not desire a man of God, when he arose to speak to the people, to say, "Thus saith the Lord God Almighty," or "Thus saith Jesus Christ." People who require this, or who constantly require written revelation, have not a correct conception of revelation and its Spirit. What do the present professing Christian world know about the words of the Lord that came to Jeremiah, Isaiah, and other ancient Prophets? They read and hear without understanding much; they have not a true conception of the truth or principle of what they are reading. Is this the case with the Latter-day Saints? It is more or less the case with those who are continually desiring to have "Thus saith the Lord," and more written revelations. Those who possess the Spirit of revelation know the voice of the Good Shepherd when they hear it, and a stranger they will not follow. They discern the difference between the spirit and power of the Gospel and the precepts of men. When they hear truth poured upon the people, in comparison like the cataract of Niagara, they do not want "Thus saith the Lord," for it carries with it its own evidence, and is revelation to the believer. They understand, and the fountain within them springs up to everlasting life; they are happy partakers of the peace of God through the administration of his servants, and of the truths the Lord dispenses; and they receive truth upon truth, light upon light, which cheers and comforts their hearts day by day. If you wish to understand the true principles of revelation, live for it: there is no other way of obtaining eternal life."

These are BY's sentiments but I'm guessing other Church leaders simply followed suit until it became the norm to not state "thus sayeth the Lord." To me, he is saying that there is an expectation for the members of the Church to receive a direct confirmation from the Lord on prophetic teachings and so there is no need to constantly identify the source of revelation because the Source will reveal it's truthfulness to us directly. The Lord must have felt it was needed in the earliest days of the Church because many members were still largely inexperienced with how revelation worked both personal and authoritatively. That all changed with time. Now, as BY states, we don't need the Good Shepherd to preface everything he says with "I am your Shepherd," if we are His sheep we will automatically recognize His voice.

Edited Monday at 10:55 PM by laronius

[MrShorty]

At the risk of opening old wounds and such, I have found it interesting that the prophet-presidents of the RLDS/Community of Christ branch of the restoration continued the tradition of adding to their D&C with revelations published in the Voice of God. As I skim over their D&C, it seems that this tradition continued until Pres. Wallace B. Smith and section 160 in about 1996. Pres. Grant McMurray and Stephen Veazy seem to have stepped away from voicing their additions to the D&C as clearly in the Voice of God.

Perhaps part of the answer is that anyone can write a document in the Voice of God, but such a practice does not necessarily make the alleged revelation a true revelation, as I'm sure many in this group would contest the legitimacy of sections 130ish+ of the D&C.

[mordorbund]

Quote

I testify that the Lord instructed me to select President Dallin H. Oaks and President Henry B. Eyring to serve as my counselors in the First Presidency.

In like manner, I testify that the Lord inspired the call of Elder Gerrit W. Gong and Elder Ulisses Soares to be ordained as His Apostles. I and we welcome them to this unique brotherhood of service.

When we convene as a Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, our meeting rooms become rooms of revelation. The Spirit is palpably present. As we wrestle with complex matters, a thrilling process unfolds as each Apostle freely expresses his thoughts and point of view. Though we may differ in our initial perspectives, the love we feel for each other is constant. Our unity helps us to discern the Lord’s will for His Church.

In our meetings, the majority never rules! We listen prayerfully to one another and talk with each other until we are united. Then when we have reached complete accord, the unifying influence of the Holy Ghost is spine-tingling! We experience what the Prophet Joseph Smith knew when he taught, “By union of feeling we obtain power with God.” No member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve would ever leave decisions for the Lord’s Church to his own best judgment!

 

[Anddenex]

This is a talk I remember reading at some point with regards to "thus saith the Lord" from prophets. 

Marion G. Romney, who said in the April 1945 General Conference:

"So I repeat again, what the presidency say as a presidency is what the Lord would say if he were here, and it is scripture. It should be studied, understood, and followed, even as the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants and other scriptures. Those who follow this course will not interpret what they say as being inspired by political bias or selfishness; neither will they say that the brethren are uninformed as to the circumstances of those affected by their counsel; or that their counsels cannot be accepted because they are not prefaced by the quotation, "Thus saith the Lord."

Those ... who will through mighty prayer and earnest study inform themselves as to what these living prophets say, and act upon it, will be visited by the spirit of the Lord and know by the spirit of revelation that they speak the mind and will of the Father.”

I'm having a hard time finding a different talk that addressed this same question. It encompassed the notion that when a prophet is acting as a prophet he doesn't need to say, "Thus saith the Lord," because he is "acting" as his voice -- in his office and role.

EDIT: Haha, I think @laronius found the talk!

Edited yesterday at 03:56 AM by Anddenex

[HaggisShuu]

I too have wondered why there have been so few additions to the D&C, and I've concluded with these 2 points:

1 - I think Joseph Smith was special among the prophets.

The vast majority of D&C are revelations given by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was one of the very few prophets known to actually have seen Heavenly Father in the flesh. 
He was the Prophet Of The Restoration. Every member of the Church and many Non-Members can name him. 
I think subsequent prophets, were likely lesser prophets. (I don't mean that in a derogatory way, and I don't mean it to diminish their office, contribution or worthiness.) But as @Just_A_Guy hinted at, I think the revelation modern prophets have received were likely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and not necessarily given by the mouth of God. Joseph Smith was privileged in that way. 
 

2 - I think there is a connection between what is revealed to the prophet at any given time, and the readiness/worthiness among the membership of the church. In a twisted way, I think new canonised revelation would cause more people a faith crises than a edifying them. Which has been the case since the time of Joseph Smith who described teaching the saints new doctrine as futile as splitting a hemlock knot with a corn dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a hammer. I think with technology and the dispersed, international nature of the church now, people just generally aren't ready for new revelation. I am guilty of thus myself, there hasn't been published revelation in so long that if Russell M Nelson were to present one for canonisation containing new doctrine, I would be skeptical, and I would probably ask the question "Is this real, or an attempt to solidify his legacy?" 

[zil2]

4 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I think Joseph Smith was special among the prophets.

He is the head of the final dispensation - of course he's special.  I think the same can be said for the heads of the other dispensations.  There's nothing preventing any prophet from being just as holy and gaining similar blessings (such as seeing the Father and the Son), but just as Nephi had to respect John's calling regarding revelation about the end of the world, so too does every prophet have to "stay in his own lane".  Prophets are yet another way we are required to have faith and trust in the Lord.

4 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

I think there is a connection between what is revealed to the prophet at any given time, and the readiness/worthiness among the membership of the church.

This was my knee-jerk reaction.  Until sufficient of us have mastered the doctrine we already have, we will not receive more, even though individuals may have received more (but are required to keep it to themselves).  I believe that we started, in Joseph's day, with a "crash course" in the gospel, with lots of very excited students.  Then we settled into elementary school, have moved through middle and high school, into undergraduate programs, and the years leading up to the Second Coming will be intensive post-graduate work.  Students will drop out or go all-in because the alternative options will be removed. (See Elder Holland quote in this Elder Bednar talk.)  When enough of us are all-in, we will receive more, until we receive the Savior Himself, in person.

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, zil2 said:

He is the head of the final dispensation - of course he's special.  I think the same can be said for the heads of the other dispensations.  There's nothing preventing any prophet from being just as holy and gaining similar blessings (such as seeing the Father and the Son), but just as Nephi had to respect John's calling regarding revelation about the end of the world, so too does every prophet have to "stay in his own lane".  Prophets are yet another way we are required to have faith and trust in the Lord.

This was my knee-jerk reaction.  Until sufficient of us have mastered the doctrine we already have, we will not receive more, even though individuals may have received more (but are required to keep it to themselves).  I believe that we started, in Joseph's day, with a "crash course" in the gospel, with lots of very excited students.  Then we settled into elementary school, have moved through middle and high school, into undergraduate programs, and the years leading up to the Second Coming will be intensive post-graduate work.  Students will drop out or go all-in because the alternative options will be removed. (See Elder Holland quote in this Elder Bednar talk.)  When enough of us are all-in, we will receive more, until we receive the Savior Himself, in person.

In my youth I had the opportunity on a number of occasions to know and personally converse with Elder Hugh B. Brown.  Because of his position in the first Presidency, I felt that I had inside access to divine things.  During this same time there was this old guy in my ward that seemed to present his testimony each fast Sunday.  I did not pay much attention because this guy had no calling and always talked about Jesus.  I knew that he was once a college professor at BYU and had awards for perfecting certain flowers – but as near as I could see he was basically ordinary and since he had no calling, he was no more special than anyone else and he lived in a very ordinary unimpressive house.

When this old guy passed away Elder Brown came to speak at his funeral.  I went to the funeral because it was in our ward and Elder Brown would be there.  As Elder Brown was speaking, I was deeply touched.  During his talk Elder Brown mentioned that the old ordinary guy had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  I had heard people claim this before but as Elder Brown spoke, the spirit whispered to me that Jesus had appeared to and conversed with this old guy.

I was stunned by this revelation.  I did not know that Jesus would appear to an ordinary member of the Church.  I though such things only happened to Apostles.  Later, Brother Brown confirmed my understanding.

I have had some stunning personal revelations and manifestations, but I have never conversed directly with Jesus to my knowledge (If I had, I strongly believe I would know it).   I have come to understand that it is not for us to speculate about what is made known to who.  We need not worry about how and what grand things are made known – even in our generation or even to ourselves.  We need not worry about what things we may wish to know.  G-d knows what is best for us – and we should seek and strive to be willing to receive whatever G-d would reveal to us.  We can ask, and if it is right, it will be made known to us.

 

The Traveler