Which religion is right?

[Misshalfway]

am I right that whilst you have to be LDS (or equivelent BOM/Bible group of people) to go to Celestial Kingdom you also have to be LDS to go to hell/outer darkness?

-Charley

Oh my stars! Absolutely not! God judges the heart of the person, not their membership records. While other Christian faiths believe this black and white thinking... LDS doctrine is much different.

Outer darkness and Hell are two different things. Hell is a state of being or state of mind and is temporary. The place or state a person will achieve where they must pay for their sins -- if they do not choose to repent in this life. This is all done according to a person's knowledge. Where there is no law, there is not punishment. K? Then a person will gain their inheritance in one of the kingdoms.

Outer darkness is a special place ..... an eternal residence that is only prepared for the very few who absolutely know the truth with a perfect knowledge and literally turn their backs and deny it and then fight against the truth. It is a place with no inheritance; no light and no progression. You have to try really really hard to go there. Satan will go there after this earth-life is over. And only a very select few will join him.

[a-train]

or daughter...

Never heard of 'em.

There are no daughters of Perdition spoken of in the scriptures.

-a-train

[Elgama]

Oh my stars! Absolutely not! God judges the heart of the

Outer darkness is a special place ..... an eternal residence that is only prepared for the very few who absolutely know the truth with a perfect knowledge and literally turn their backs and deny it and then fight against the truth. It is a place with no inheritance; no light and no progression. You have to try really really hard to go there. Satan will go there after this earth-life is over. And only a very select few will join him.

yes and don't you in this dispensation have to be LDS to do that? when i put hell and outer darkness sorry i wasn't being clear I meant our definition of outer darkness which to other religions would be hell

-Charley

[Misshalfway]

That is still a very arrogant attitude to have. After all the Catholics say the same thing.

Kona,

What would you prefer the LDS people to proclaim? If the believe one thing and say another, that would make them liars.

How would one communicate truth to you without professing it to be so? I don't mind when I meet a Jewish individual who is convinced that they are the chosen people. It doesn't bother me one bit. Why should the LDS sentiment bother you? Couldn't you say in your heart that you don't believe it and just let it be? What is so offensive? Is it offensive to you when a Catholic professes to have the truth? Or when anyone professes to know? What about God? What if God himself professed it to you? What if you were Joseph Smith and he commanded you to tell the world that this where to find the complete truth? Would you find yourself arrogant or obedient?

I personally think the far Eastern Religions have lots of truth. I think that sometimes our Christian friends have wonderful truths as well. Mohammad had tremendous insight. So did Martin Luther and other reformers. Truth is truth wherever it is found. And I think the Spirit of the Lord is very present in lots of churches and in the hearts of the children of men around the globe.

This Church professes to have the correct priesthood authority and the power to give the gift of the Holy Ghost. And we believe that the Church of Christ MUST have those components to be "living". We profess to have the complete church with all the essential ordinances and doctrines for salvation. Do we know it all? No. There is much to learn. Either we have the complete truth OR we don't . It is as simple as that. Only one way to find out......

[Misshalfway]

yes and don't you in this dispensation have to be LDS to do that? when i put hell and outer darkness sorry i wasn't being clear I meant our definition of outer darkness which to other religions would be hell

-Charley

Most likely..... but if I try hard enough I could probably conjour up a non LDS scenerio.....considering the LDS church has only been around for a couple hundred years and there were lots of people born......under lots of different circumstances....... Literally impossible for us to judge it all out with our human brains.

PS. Elgama, you are LDS right? Think I got a little confused there. The memory just isn't what it used to be!

[Hemidakota]

The following is from a section on "soul winning," under the FAQ section. I co-authored this with a Vietnamese pastor about 12 years ago.

1. Religion is humanity's attempt to find God.

a. All religions claim to be right.

b. You must decide which one is.

2. God's Word says that they are all wrong. Instead, God finds us.

a. According to John 14:6 Jesus says that He is the only way, truth and life, and that the only way to God is through him.

b. Only Christians recognize correctly who Jesus is, and try to follow him.

Noting the amount of claimed beliefs professed today on the earth, one will need to confront that very god and asked the question - "Which religion is the correct one."

[Elgama]

Most likely..... but if I try hard enough I could probably conjour up a non LDS scenerio.....considering the LDS church has only been around for a couple hundred years and there were lots of people born......under lots of different circumstances....... Literally impossible for us to judge it all out with our human brains.

PS. Elgama, you are LDS right? Think I got a little confused there. The memory just isn't what it used to be!

yes I am LDS its just one of those things I probably shouldn't ponder on but do lol - I did just mean this dispensation, anything before that is for that dispensation and will be judged against the light they had. I just believe the more light you have the greater you fall and to fall that far you have to have an awful lot of light

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

Can a person with that much light fall? Elder Rulon T.Burton, [We Believe] - - -

"There is no forgiveness for denying the First Comforter. But if a man received honor enough to have the presence of the Son, he would also have the knowledge of the First Comforter and should he turn away, his sin would be unpardonable. A man could not deny the Second Comforter any more than he could the first. "

[Elgama]

Can a person with that much light fall? Elder Rulon T.Burton, [We Believe] - - -

"There is no forgiveness for denying the First Comforter. But if a man received honor enough to have the presence of the Son, he would also have the knowledge of the First Comforter and should he turn away, his sin would be unpardonable. A man could not deny the Second Comforter any more than he could the first. "

I am sure we can but I think we have to wait to find out - Satan with as much light as he had walked away and that was without the veil.

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

We are referring to those of mortality. Just not going to happen. Some may argue that even Apostle Judea when betrayed the Savior, this was done openly; hardly! He did not receive that promise.

You have to remember, when one reaches this pinnacle of light, he/she will see Lucifer, in order to know the difference. Remember what happened to Moses and Joseph Smith?

[Elgama]

We are referring to those of mortality. Just not going to happen. Some may argue that even Apostle Judea when betrayed the Savior, this was done openly; hardly! He did not receive that promise.

You have to remember, when one reaches this pinnacle of light, he/she will see Lucifer, in order to know the difference. Remember what happened to Moses and Joseph Smith?

if you know the Saviour you know Lucifer, at least I find as my knowledge of one grows my knowledge of the other increases. I guess I am going to have to put some prayer and study into it, it was just a thought I had but I can't help but feel you need to know much to lose much.

-Charley

[MorningStar]

I don't think I would want to join a religion that didn't claim to have the truth. Otherwise I might think they're just coddling me and telling me what I want to hear. When Catholics, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. say they have the truth, that's fine by me. Better than being luke warm.

[kona0197]

Oh my stars! Absolutely not! God judges the heart of the person, not their membership records. While other Christian faiths believe this black and white thinking... LDS doctrine is much different.

Outer darkness and Hell are two different things. Hell is a state of being or state of mind and is temporary. The place or state a person will achieve where they must pay for their sins -- if they do not choose to repent in this life. This is all done according to a person's knowledge. Where there is no law, there is not punishment. K? Then a person will gain their inheritance in one of the kingdoms.

Outer darkness is a special place ..... an eternal residence that is only prepared for the very few who absolutely know the truth with a perfect knowledge and literally turn their backs and deny it and then fight against the truth. It is a place with no inheritance; no light and no progression. You have to try really really hard to go there. Satan will go there after this earth-life is over. And only a very select few will join him.

I disagree. Hell will not be a state of mind but a lake of fire as the Bible says.

[Misshalfway]

I disagree. Hell will not be a state of mind but a lake of fire as the Bible says.

I don't disagree with you. Maybe I didn't explain it well. I am sure others are better at explaining. From what I understand Hell is more a condition. There will be Hell in the Spirit prison and outer darkness is most certainly hell. Others may experience hell through out the eternities .....but to tell you the truth I would have to look that up. But I do think of fire and brimstone when I think of Hell. But I see it "burning" (for lack of a better term) a person on the inside... not like a room with literal fire like the center of the earth. Rather a fire that burns the conscience and punishes the spirit because that person knew better. That is my understanding. But I guess it could be considered a place as well.

[a-train]

Where does the Bible say that hell is a lake of fire and brimstone?

-a-train

[kona0197]

Go look it up a-train. I'm busy. I know it's in the New Testament in one of the gospels or in Revelations.

[Hemidakota]

I do apologize. I meant, in seeing the personages in person [mortality].

I do see many will use the term 'I KNOW' in a sacrament meeting. To me, this means 'I HAVE WITNESS THIS IN PERSON'. This can be misleading in many Fast & Testimony meetings since it is something that follows those of great faith and many trials.

Apostle B.R. McConkie, undoubtedly, is a witness of the Savior and spoke many occasions on this topic. I know there are some ‘T. fellows’, perhaps here on this forum, don't agree with his tenacious attitude in using his father-in-law creational stance, but the point here is the content.

After a man so devotes himself to righteousness that his calling and election is made sure, "then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter," the Prophet says. "Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even he will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions - Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn." (Teachings, pp. 150-151; John 14:16:23; D. & C. 88:3-4; 130:3.) "The Holy Spirit of Promise is not the Second Comforter." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 55.)

[Traveler]

Could it be that what you deem "other important elements," others might consider to be doctrines? Jesus said that He is the Way. The way is narrow because it is only one way. Few enter because of the humility it requires. I must except that Jesus bled and died for me, but most would rather gussy themselves up, and have their spiritual leaders declare them worthy.

Thank you for your opinion. I think you and I have a different view of what is meant by "the Way". I think you have attached something from our culture and language to some thing quite different in ancient times.

The disciples were found. I dare say that most who ultimately embrace the faith were found...usually by other believers. Kudos to those who discern that there must be a God, and who extend great energy to find the truth of him. But whether I am invited, or I have painstakingly sought...God receives me by his grace, not my merit.

Judas was found - no one is lost to G-d - his call is to all. In the parable of the sewer Jesus taught that the seed of G-d is given to all but those that have not cleared away their rocks and weeds and kept their soil soft will not have place for the seed to grow. Come now, a just G-d does not honor one that does not seek over one that does. Did Jesus not command his disciples to seek, ask and knock? If you have found Jesus should you not believe what he said?

There are many people in many churches who will agonize to hear our Master say, "Depart from me you workers of inequity--I never knew you." I'm doubtful it's because they joined the wrong church.

There are some languages (for example German) that translate this scripture to say "authorize" rather than "knew". It is hard for me to understand that G-d would not “know” his creations as we would define “know” in English. However, this scripture highlights those that are doing things in the “Name” of Jesus Christ. They would not use that name unless they believed in it. It makes much more sense to understand that Jesus never authorized them but that they authorized themselves. With this understanding I think we get a better view into the way that Jesus “authorized” and why few find it even though many (as per the example Jesus gave) think they have found it.

The Traveler

[Adeipho]

Go look it up a-train. I'm busy. I know it's in the New Testament in one of the gospels or in Revelations.

Perhaps since you're not willing to back up your own theory by providing the references of which you speak, and its rude for you to make one you are attempting to convince to look it up for you, I have taken the high road. I have done it for you Kona.

The phrase "lake of fire" appears in four verses of the book of Revelations:

19:20: And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet ... These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. (RSV)

20:10: and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (RSV)

20:14-15: Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (RSV)

Revelation 19-20 thus says that the beast, the false prophet, the devil, Death, Hades, and all those whose names are not found written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.

According to verse 20:10, the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever. Death and Hades, if taken literally, could not be spoken of as tortured.

Now its interesting that "Hades" will be thrown into the lake of fire. Hades is another name for "hell" or "underworld". Now, how can hell be thrown into hell? Also, is Death a person? Because Death is getting thrown in too. And we all know that the Beast spoken of in Revelations is a symbol. So symbols are also going into hell? Perhaps the best and right idea is that "lake of fire" is symbolic of the absolute anguish those who are cast completely out of Heavenly Father's presense will feel. No degree of glory, just outer darkness. To put it simply, (Where God resides = Celestial Kingdom. Where God does not reside and has none of his spirit there = hell/ outer darkness.

But A-train is correct, no where in the bible of any translation does it say the Lake of Fire is Hell. And while were talking about what is NOT in the Bible....no where does it mention Chinese people or the planet Mars, so neither of those must exist.

[prisonchaplain]

TJudas was found - no one is lost to G-d - his call is to all. In the parable of the sewer Jesus taught that the seed of G-d is given to all but those that have not cleared away their rocks and weeds and kept their soil soft will not have place for the seed to grow. Come now, a just G-d does not honor one that does not seek over one that does. Did Jesus not command his disciples to seek, ask and knock? If you have found Jesus should you not believe what he said?

God will honor BELIEVERS who pursue him vigorously over those who do so less robustly. However, they will all receive rewards...the 30,60,100 fold harvesters come to mind.

There are some languages (for example German) that translate this scripture to say "authorize" rather than "knew". It is hard for me to understand that G-d would not “know” his creations as we would define “know” in English. However, this scripture highlights those that are doing things in the “Name” of Jesus Christ. They would not use that name unless they believed in it. It makes much more sense to understand that Jesus never authorized them but that they authorized themselves. With this understanding I think we get a better view into the way that Jesus “authorized” and why few find it even though many (as per the example Jesus gave) think they have found it.

The Traveler

To suggest that when Jesus addressed those who claimed to work in his name of being guilty of not being authorized, versus that they took the academic knowledge of him and built their own kingdoms, without ever really getting to know the Master--based on a German definition of "know" strikes me as innovative. However, it's far easier for me to imagine that these folk, like the money-changers in the Temple, turned the cause of Christ into their own fiefdoms. IMHO, it would be dangerous to insinuate that this verse applies to particular people or groups of people, but I can see why there would be the temptation to do so.

[Traveler]

To suggest that when Jesus addressed those who claimed to work in his name of being guilty of not being authorized, versus that they took the academic knowledge of him and built their own kingdoms, without ever really getting to know the Master--based on a German definition of "know" strikes me as innovative. However, it's far easier for me to imagine that these folk, like the money-changers in the Temple, turned the cause of Christ into their own fiefdoms. IMHO, it would be dangerous to insinuate that this verse applies to particular people or groups of people, but I can see why there would be the temptation to do so.

I did not post this to apply to a general group. When Jesus met for Passover with his Apostles he mentioned that someone among them would deny him. In light of many things I have often wondered why John did not whisper to Peter, "I bet it is Judas. He has really been acting strange lately." But it is interesting to me that those that were really in "the Way" turned and asked, "L-rd is it I?"

I am not sure that there is much that Jesus taught that we should wonder what poor sap (or group) he was talking about. It is meant to understand ourselves. The asking, "L-rd, is it I?" or "does Jesus know me?" or "am I the example of what and how he authorizes now and in times passed?" Most likely these are some of the many indication one finds along "the Way". There must be a difference between thinking one is right, known or authorized and being authorized; otherwise there would not be such a "variety". (BTW I was once lost in a wilderness because I thought I had found one of the landmarks on my map and having found one thinking it was enough) But it does not matter who is pretending what - That is what the judgment is for. There is no excuse in others; only that to which we have sought and obtained of G-d rather than having been "beguiled" by the cunning one that pretends to be G-d or like G-d.

The Traveler

[kona0197]

Why do you guys not type God or Lord as it should be typed?

[WANDERER]

Lake of fire...I'm thinking of that vision where the guy was begging for water...OT. Now where was it?

[Hemidakota]

GOD or LORD God = Heavenly Father

God or Lord = the Savior

LOL

[Hemidakota]

I disagree. Hell will not be a state of mind but a lake of fire as the Bible says.

There was books I read many years ago - if my memory serves me right, the author was Doctor Moody [70s]. He went about in collecting data on anyone who died and came back. His collection of data would have some striking commonality between those who did not believe there was a GOD and those who did. Now, those individuals who made others in this world miserable, murders, thieves, and so on, would arrive in a place where it is an absent of light. Some would end up with those who are sons of perdition or same character flaws as their own.

Others who kept the basic 10-commandments or semi-keepers of the law, but not evil per say, did witness a light and a tunnel. Thus in the light, would meet others of the same character, love ones, and so forth.

Mosiah chapter 27:18 thru 23, is a good place to see a close description what hell may consist of for those who are considered evil.

Someone ask a few months back, what happens to a homicide bomber who murders the innocent? When they die, they are still their. Not leaving the spot, a consignment of their own personal ‘hell’, until justice meant out for that individual.