Do Satanists Infilltrate The Church?

[Andrew777]

Yes, the majority of us are pretty dang good. But those few hurt MANY. It is estimated that one can hurt hundreds in his lifetime. There was a poll taken at the high school I work at, anon. Those who have been abused/abused sexually. The actual numbers were a little higher. Of course, that includes date rape, etc. by boyfriends, Slipping rufis into drinks at parties, and then having their way with the girl after she is passed out. Just last week one of my female students told me about how it happened to her (why she had missed school).

Just as an example of what's asked in these poles -- women are never asked if they have been sexually assaulted, instead questions such as "Have you ever had a sexual encounter then regretted it after or the next morning?", "Have you ever felt pressured into having a sexual encounter?" or "Have you ever had a sexual encounter while intoxicated?" if you answer yes to these questions you are considered to have been abused...this is how they come up with vastly inflated numbers. What's wrong with just asking outright? That's right you can't ask outright or you won't get the answer you want. We won't go into the number of false accusations that are thrown about either and the number of men who were guilty until proven innocent just by the word of a woman.

If there is any conspiracy it's a conspiracy of media pundits making money out of spreading fear and a conspiracy of people that want to destroy the role of fatherhood and any smidgen of respect for masculinity North American society has left.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I sure that you would believe it just because. You must have some pretty serious evidence before founding such an extreme belief. Please share with us the evidence you have our Church and our government are infiltrated with satanic cult.

I'll wait.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I did not mean a Satanic Cult has infiltrated the Latter-Day Saint Church. I meant there are a few among us (inside or outside the church) who worship power and or sensuality and will use whatever means they need to gain what they want.

For instance, in the ward I attend there was a man who was investigating the church. He would attend church on and off for a while and then quit attending. We later found he was a registered sex offender for horrible crimes against very young children.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Just as an example of what's asked in these poles -- women are never asked if they have been sexually assaulted, instead questions such as "Have you ever had a sexual encounter then regretted it after or the next morning?", "Have you ever felt pressured into having a sexual encounter?" or "Have you ever had a sexual encounter while intoxicated?" if you answer yes to these questions you are considered to have been abused...this is how they come up with vastly inflated numbers. What's wrong with just asking outright? That's right you can't ask outright or you won't get the answer you want. We won't go into the number of false accusations that are thrown about either and the number of men who were guilty until proven innocent just by the word of a woman.

Interesting information Andrew777.

[tiancum]

Just as an example of what's asked in these poles -- women are never asked if they have been sexually assaulted, instead questions such as "Have you ever had a sexual encounter then regretted it after or the next morning?", "Have you ever felt pressured into having a sexual encounter?" or "Have you ever had a sexual encounter while intoxicated?"

The questions asked at the school i work at, and are most commonly asked...

Has a family member ever made sexual advances towards you?

Has your boyfriend ever become physically violent with you?

Have you ever been threatened with violence by a parent?

I am not saying there are no slanted polls like you suggest. There are some out there I am sure. I have never in my career as a therapist nor educator seen questions you have suggested actually used for a poll. Especially one i have administered or participated in. The information you have gathered is obviously second hand. Coming from first hand experience, what you are suggesting is not as commonplace as you suggest.

[Snow]

You misunderstood what I wrote. I did not mean a Satanic Cult has infiltrated the Latter-Day Saint Church. I meant there are a few among us (inside or outside the church) who worship power and or sensuality and will use whatever means they need to gain what they want.

For instance, in the ward I attend there was a man who was investigating the church. He would attend church on and off for a while and then quit attending. We later found he was a registered sex offender for horrible crimes against very young children.

Ah, understood. Sorry and thank you.

[Andrew777]

The questions asked at the school i work at, and are most commonly asked...

Has a family member ever made sexual advances towards you?

Has your boyfriend ever become physically violent with you?

Have you ever been threatened with violence by a parent?

I am not saying there are no slanted polls like you suggest. There are some out there I am sure. I have never in my career as a therapist nor educator seen questions you have suggested actually used for a poll. Especially one i have administered or participated in. The information you have gathered is obviously second hand. Coming from first hand experience, what you are suggesting is not as commonplace as you suggest.

Yes it's gathered first hand, you can buy plenty of books that show the questions asked in such polls, you can request first hand information from most of these people that take the polls and find out what questions are asked. You can also by books that do in depth study of such things, my favourite books on such a subject are written by Christina Hoff Summers. Obviously you haven't been involved in many questionares.

What's wrong with the question, have you ever been sexually assaulted? It's a simple question that can be answered yes or no. The questions you list above are slanted, most people men or women, would be able to answer yes to one of those questions. I can certainly answer yes to at least one of those three questions.

Consider the violent crime rate including convicted murderers, aggravated assaults, robberies and sexual assaults in Detroit is 2.4% The extremely inflated figure of 1 in 4 women or 25% came from a study done by Mary Koss, instead of taking an answer of yes to the question "Have you every been raped?" (this question was asked) as being the indicator that a woman has been sexually assaulted she took an answer of yes to a variety of questions as being a positive to victimization. The questions asked were similiar questions to the ones you've listed and I've listed above. It's a first hand fact that 73% of the women in the study that Mary Koss considered to have been assaulted answered no when asked if they had ever been sexually assaulted, 42% of the women Mary Koss reported as being victimized continued to have relations with their 'assailants'.

[tiancum]

2.4% is reported violent crimes. Many go unreported.

As for Koss, since then, alternate surveys have been given by her critics. The questions have been reworked. Her critics re administered the test to disqualify false yes answers. the results were very close to her original results. Although admittedly labels were changed. Even though the specific names to the evils have been changed, it does not change the fact that evil is being perpetrated.

as you suggest, simple yes or no answers do not give enough information. Many are not ready nor willing to come forth with more information.

It's a first hand fact that 73% of the women in the study that Mary Koss considered to have been assaulted answered no when asked if they had ever been sexually assaulted,

which makes, by your own criterion, the "no" answer invalid, the 42% who said yes to continuing to have relations is also invalid for the same reason.

The fact is, many are being hurt. Many are not ready to come forward. Many...(the numbers don't really matter) do indeed continue to "be" with their abuser. Many times for years. Some never have the courage to escape.

I don't think that we will ever know the exact numbers. even one rape is too high. I am sorry to hear that you can answer yes to one of the above questions. I hope it wasn't the second one. lol ; )

It doesn't matter what the evil is labeled, it is still happening. The mere fact that people are answering "yes" to certain questions means that something bad has happened. Whether you call it sexual assault, physical abuse, rape, attempted rape, assault, or verbal abuse, emotional abuse, ritual abuse, name calling...etc. it is tragic, and all comes from Satan.

I cannot dismiss that. I don't believe that you are trying to dismiss the bad things that are happening either.

Maybe all we are arguing about is the reliability of surveys. Or maybe we are arguing about how much evil there actually is in the world. I think many turn a blind eye to much of the evil that is happening. It is out there. I agree with you when you say

men aren't these horrible beasts that the media makes us out to be, there are a very small percentage of men who are violent psychopaths and sex abusers.

I just don't believe in Detroit is is 2.4% of males.

peace brother

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

1. 1,800 YEAR HISTORY OF UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMORS:

""As for the initiation of new members, the details are as disgusting as they are well known. The novice himself, deceived by the coating of dough (covering a sacrificial infant), thinks the stabs are harmless. Then, it's horrible! They hungrily drink the blood and compete with one another as they divide his limbs. And the fact they all share knowledge of the crime pledges them all to silence. On the feast-day they foregather with all their children, sisters, mothers, people of either sex and all ages. Now, in the dark, so favorable to shameless behavior, they twine the bonds of unnamable passion, as chance decides. Precisely the secrecy of this evil religion proves that all these things, or practically all, are true."

Sounds like those evil luciferians, doesn't it? It was actually an untrue account written about Christians as recounted by Minicus Felix in the 1st century CE.

The same type of false allegations have continued for the last 1800 years. "The same basic story has continued intermittently in many variations for some 1800 years. The Church used it against the heretics, lepers, Cathars, Knights Templar and Witches during the period 1000 to 1800 AD. Hitler used it against the Jews and Gypsies during the 1930's. The USSR used it against the Jews more recently. A variety of SRA promoters are using it against Satanists, followers of minority religions, men's fraternal organizations, self help groups, etc. today. The stories are almost identical (less the coating of dough).

Historians do not believe that these tales were true in the past; there is no reason to assume that the latest manifestation of the same rumor is true today. Promoters of SRA are simply continuing the lies of the Inquisition, of Nazi Germany, and of the USSR into the 1990's. Most are believed to do this unknowingly. Most firmly believe in the reality of SRA." (from Religious Tolerance as are the other indicators below)

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

2. FRAUDS IN THE SRA INDUSTRY

Much of the public's current beliefs about Satanism and SRA can be traced back to four books: Michelle Remembers, Satan Seller, Satan's Underground and He Came to Set the Captives Free. All contain what the authors claim to be personal experiences with Satanism - as victim or perpetrator. All four have been proven to be frauds by various Evangelical and Wiccan investigators. Various television exposes of SRA (20-20, Geraldo, and other talk shows) featured these authors. There are many dozens of additional books which are mainly written by Evangelical authors which appear to use combinations of these four books for source material. A study by the Wiccan Information Network has shown that there is no agreement by these authors on the Satanic seasonal days of celebration. The dates mentioned in these books appear to be guesses by their authors. If Satanic dates are simply invented, one may wonder whether the rest of the books are based on reality.

The most important book (the one which originally triggered the SRA panic) is Michelle Remembers by Dr. Lawrence Pazder and Michelle Smith (Pocket Books 1980; ISBN 0-671-69433-2). An investigation by the Wiccan Information Network revealed that the horrendous rituals described in the book originated in Pazder's personal study of benign African native religious practices.

Ultimately, all of the beliefs about SRA can be traced back to the above four books, to people's imagination and to the Malleus Maleficarum (the text book of the Witch burning times).

If SRA existed, then one would logically expect that a SRA survivor somewhere who had continuously present memories would write a non-fraudulent book describing their abuse experiences, either as victim or perpetrator.

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

3. LACK OF SURVIVORS' DOCUMENTATION PRIOR TO 1980

The term "SRA survivor" is used to describe adults who have memories of SRA which happened. Usually, they had not been aware of these experiences until recovered memories are developed during therapy. There are no records of SRA survivors having gone public in the 20th century prior to the publishing of Michelle Remembers.

If SRA has been practiced for many generations (as the promoters of SRA believe) then someone should have come forward before 1980 to reveal their abuse.

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

4. OTHER FRAUDS IN THE SRA INDUSTRY

Some of the SRA authors and lecturers have been investigated by both Neopagan and Evangelical Christian groups and shown to be frauds . Many lecturers in the industry say that they were once Satanists or "black Witches", rose to a position of great power, engaged in horrendous rituals, converted to Evangelical Christianity, and then became an author and seminar leader.

If SRA exists, then one would expect most of the authors and lecturers to have left Satanism as a "plain ordinary member." Some should have converted to mainline Christianity, to liberal Christianity or to a religion other than Christianity. Yet none fitting these profiles has ever been found.

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

5. COURT CASES IN THE EARLY 1980'S

There were dozens of court cases involving SRA in the five years following the publishing of Michelle Remembers. Typically, charges were brought by a young adult against her/his parents, accusing them of SRA which allegedly occurred during the 1960's and/or 1970's. The testimony revealed rituals identical to (or essentially duplicates of) those described in the book Michelle Remembers. But, as has been shown above, that book is fiction; those rituals only existed in the mind of the authors. One must conclude that the survivors were either lying, or were basing their testimony on false memories. (False memories feel like real memories; however they are of events that never happened. The survivor is usually unaware of these memories until they are recovered during Recovered Memory Therapy, which may use hypnotism, age regression, guided imagery and other suggestive therapies). It is very doubtful that they were lying; no known researcher in the field accuses the survivors of perjury. We conclude that they were based on false memories.

If SRA really existed as a secret, inter-generational underground movement, we would have expected court cases to have been brought forward during at least the entire 20th Century. And the testimony given at the trials would not have been based on a fraudulent book.

[a-train]

If this discussion is meant to focus on 'SRA' and the like, is it possible, that after the whole 'SRA' thing came out that it could have given people ideas? (Whether in or out of the Church.)

-a-train

[Moksha]

There was once a charge in the Lehi, Utah that many of the citizens were abusing the local children as well as performing satanic rituals. These allegations were pure hokum however, brought on by the suggestions implanted by the therapists.

From a paper to The Mormon History Association (MHA) - Park City, Utah, May 21, 1994. Mormons and Rumors of Ritual Abuse (Introvigne)

So Moksha, I assume you were also watching that show about Hypnotism on PBS, where they talked about how easily false memories are implanted by therapists. What they did not point out however, was that the majority of adults reporting Satanic Ritual Abuse, as children, also suffered from borderline personality disorder.

[Snow]

If this discussion is meant to focus on 'SRA' and the like, is it possible, that after the whole 'SRA' thing came out that it could have given people ideas? (Whether in or out of the Church.)

-a-train

See indication #5 above

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

6. THE NATURE OF RECOVERED MEMORIES OF SRA

SRA survivors have similar memories of abuse, involving a Satanic "motif". They remember evil, robe-clad adults, candles, knives, an altar, etc. This is the sort of image that we all have of Satanists; it is derived from countless children's stories, horror movies, sermons, comic books, etc. However, survivors memories of details of Satanic ritual do not agree. Since Satanism is believed to be a rigid, authoritarian religion, details should be consistent across the country. These includes: dates of major rituals, type and color of knifes, color of robes, whether female and male clothing was differentiated; whether the Satanist's rank was identified by different colored belts, etc. Details also rarely agree with known Satanic practices.

If a highly structured Satanic group is involved in SRA, one would expect that ritual details would be consistent among local cells, and that survivors' stories would agree. We would expect that their memories of rituals would match known Satanic practices.

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

7. THERAPISTS AND AGENCIES PROMOTING SRA

A recent study funded by a US federal government agency among over 6,900 psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers showed that 70% had never had an SRA patient, most of the rest had handled one or two, but that 1.4% had over 100 cases. This indicates that a small percentage of therapists are detecting most of the survivors

The same study of police departments, district attorney's offices and social service agencies revealed a similar pattern: 80% with none; most of the rest one or two, and 2.2% over 100 cases. There are counseling centers that suspect that all of their clients have been victims of incest or ritual abuse. Memories of abuse often surface after Recovered Memory Therapy, which often involves hypnotism and guided imagery, The American Medical Association, and many Psychiatric and Psychological professional organizations around the world warn that recovered memories may have no relation to real events. However, many therapists continue to believe that all memories are absolutely true and accurate, whether recovered or always present.

If SRA were widespread, one would expect a more even distribution of cases among therapists and agencies. In reality, a very small minority of therapists and agencies are creating most SRA survivors - apparently those who personally believe in extensive SRA, and see it in most of their clients or patients.

[a-train]

See indication #5 above

I mean, will this talk about this sort of thing give wierdos ideas about actually doing this stuff?

You know, like kids looking up to the Columbine murderers and doing school shootings. Or, people idolizing Charles Manson or some famous criminal.

Could this thing become some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy if-you-will?

-a-train

[tiancum]

you mean like this A train?

And now, my son, I command you that ye retain all their oaths, and their covenants, and their agreements in their secret abominations; yea, and all their asigns and their wonders ye shall bkeep from this people, that they know them not, lest peradventure they should fall into darkness also and be destroyed.

Lol Snow, thou doest protest too much. What are you hiding under your robes? lol

now on a more serious note. to say that SRA doesn't exist is just silly. Satanism does indeed exist, and has existed since the world began. Beginning when Cain went and sacrificed fruit, then his brother. Don't forget how deeply involved Hitler was in the occult, and many (understatement)were abused/murdered because of him and his insane beleifs. (sure his abuse was not directly ritualistic...as far as we know) But he did abuse, according to his twisted occult ideas.

To assert that there has been no violence in the name of Satan is just silly. Many murders and abuse have been perpetrated in his name over the years.

If you assert Snow that it is not not all is factual, or that some are lying, then I accept your opinion. Either way, No one is convicted anymore of these things.

[Snow]

8. Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

Children with memories of SRA tend to recall scary experiences; e.g. being put in a coffin and lowered into a grave. Their stories often involve urine and feces, which are typical fascinations of children. Adult survivors' stories tend to be very different. They often recall horrendous torture, mutilation, ritual murder, cannibalism, drinking of blood, etc.

If SRA existed, one would expect that child and adult memories of the same rituals would be similar.

[Snow]

Indicators that Satanic Ritual Abuse does not exist:

9. COURT RECORDS

Very few criminal cases in the US actually go to trial. About 90% are settled by plea-bargaining in which the accused pleads guilty to a lesser crime in order to avoid being found guilty of a more serious offense. There is only one case on record in the US of a person pleading guilty to abuse involving a Satanic ritual component. He is a special person - one who has been proven capable of entering a self-induced trance and creating his own false memories. He pleaded guilty because he believed his own false memories and wanted to spare his daughters the stress of a trial. He has since recanted and is appealing his sentence.

If SRA were widespread, one would expect large numbers of perpetrators charged with SRA to admit their guilt and plea-bargain for lesser charges. It is believed that this has never happened.

[Snow]

you mean like this A train?

Lol Snow, thou doest protest too much. What are you hiding under your robes? lol

now on a more serious note. to say that SRA doesn't exist is just silly. .

I am posting all sorts of indicators that SRA is a bogus notion, including number 10, below, which is simply that there is no evidence of it. Posting "to say that SRA doesn't exist is just silly." just isn't a rebuttal.

SRA is not some random loon that does very bad things and either pretends to worship Satan in the process or is so tweaked in the head that he actually tries to worship Old Scratch. SRA refers to a very specific, systematic, and widespread practice... which just isn't true.

10. LACK OF SUPPORTING EVIDENCE

During the 1980's, many promoters in the SRA industry were police officers. They were concerned that thousands of Satanists (and similar groups) were literally getting away with murder. In recent years, most have realized that no hard evidence of ritual abuse or murder has ever been found. Most police are now openly skeptical of the reality of SRA. Some police officers, who are Evangelical Christians, remain; they are sometimes called "cult cops" by skeptics.

The FBI Behavioral Sciences Laboratory is the main law enforcement group in the United States specializing in SRA. They have been called in as consultants by local police forces in hundreds of cases of suspected SRA. Although they have found many cases involved sexual and physical abuse of children, none have involved SRA. The FBI has successfully infiltrated the Mafia, KKK, Communist cells, corrupt union organizations, and are now penetrating the state militias. But they have never infiltrated the "Satanic conspiracy".

If SRA were widespread, one would expect some hard evidence of the 50,000 ritual killings per year. One would expect the FBI to have infiltrated and exposed any criminal Satanic organization if it existed.

[tiancum]

SRA refers to a very specific, systematic, and widespread practice... which just isn't true.

No sorry, i don't agree that to qualify to be SRA, it has to be widespread. Widespread is an arbitrary term anyway.

The qualifyers are;

It has to be abuse, in other words, it has to harm physically or kill someone.

It has to be done as part of a ritual, or as part of the belief system of a Satanist.

[spirettedotter]

The amount of work put into trying to prove SRA doesn't exist is quite impressive. I wonder why it is of such importance (to someone who has never been personally touched by such horrific trauma) to sway others not to believe it occurs... Not to mention that all of the arguments are faulty, and merely opinions and twists of partial facts originally fabricated by those who have reason to cover up the true evidence that SRA is a real practice. Such "indicators" as were posted mean nothing to the many survivors who know first hand that SRA does indeed exist and does terrible ongoing damage to its surviving victims. All the so called evidence and statistics you want to utilize doesn't change what actually occurs. It only reinforces that people don't want to hear the truth and may go to any lengths to deny it.

Recovered memories may not be 100% accurate (and are usually not claimed to be but a part of the puzzle recreating a crime) just by nature of the way they were stored in our bodies, sometimes even from a preverbal age. There is bound to be some confusion, especially during abuse that purposely and intently uses deception and tricks to make the memories less credible. But the fact is it is startling how much similarity there is between survivors' stories of all ages, children and adults, from all over different parts of the world, some from memories that were recovered, and some from memories never forgotten.

How many of us remember clearly all of our experiences from very young childhood and up? How many of us can recall minute for minute our experiences from just the other day? And when we do remember common memories, are they returned to us as detailed infallible images as viewed or portrayed in a movie, or do they involve subtle parts from all our senses that we accept as reliable because they make sense to our existing reality? Similar to how our testimonies ring true to our souls, and heal our hearts.

There are many who study how the mind works, and the nature of memory, and accept that recovered memories are valid and valuable in healing from our pasts. How many of us can't remember much of our childhoods at all, and why do some of us have such vacant blocks in our past? Trauma accounts for most lost childhood memories. Trauma resurfaces by the mind and body re-living and re-experiencing painful events. No one, including a therapist can falsify memories and feelings and physical experiences into another person's mind and body. Our feelings never lie; they are our most reliable truth checker. Feelings are real, whether we try to deny them or rationalize why we feel them. There is no such thing as a "False Memory Syndrome." It is something the bad guys made up to cover up the truth.

The fact is that Satanists do get away with murder, literally. And no, there are not very many convictions made based on the concept of cult crime, because people don't want to know the truth. It would be hard, if not impossible, to convince a jury of non-believers or a corrupt judge. The acts and cover up of SRA groups have become so sophisticated over all the thousands of years they've had to perfect them, that evidence is rarely exposed. When the label of SRA is left out of the court case, often those same crimes are easier to convict. No one wants to believe in SRA, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't occur.

Commonality of experiences is one fact that does support and validate the truth for survivors. But most of you people will never know this, because you are not open to hearing these stories from those who have lived through them first hand. Many survivors are successful and educated professionals, and folks from all sorts of walks of life, with varied backgrounds. But what survivors would share their stories openly to those who would only attempt to argue, deny, and invalidate their reality? The state of the world today should be enough to see how evil is influencing mankind, even the babes who are younger and younger every generation turning to killing and violence, acting out the things that are perpetrated against many of them. Just because you can't see the SRA cults in action, doesn't make them less real. The effects of their systematic abuse are here to be seen. The same argument could be applied to our beliefs and faith in God. We can't see Heavenly Father, but that doesn't make Him any less real. Blessings are here for us to see and feel in our hearts. …just as the effects of terrible crimes and corruption are visible in the world today.

Many years ago no one ever dared speak about sexual abuse. But it has always occurred, none the less. Now that more people are coming forth and ready to disclose their abuse experiences, in hopes to stop the secrecy and expose the perpetrators, why can't we listen with an open heart, and accept their stories without condemnation or judgment? Instead of arguing about how frequent the occurrence and how many bad guys there are, why not agree on the heinousness of the crime and the need to accept survivors and protect our children from danger? What are you gaining by not being willing to believe these women, children, and men who have lived and survived these unbelievable traumas? What or who are you trying to protect? These things are spoken about in the very scriptures that we live by. If they occurred in the olden days, why can’t you conceive that they occur in secret still?

Those who close their minds and refuse the knowledge, refuse to aid even with compassion to those affected, and with united prayer of the good saints against the evil works, for protection of our children, they are guilty of perpetuating the continuation of corruption.

[NeuroTypical]

Just out of curiosity for those believing in SRA, do you believe this lady also?

LM