How deep do you believe?

[DigitalShadow]

Hey DS, How you doing today?

At work and mildly bored as usual, how about you?

(This thread has become so derailed that it might as well be an IRC channel now)

[Misshalfway]

Working my way thru piles of laundry. I am always amazed at the damage four kids can do.

Wish I had some good questions for you today. But frankly I am all questioned out! Read anything interesting?

[DigitalShadow]

Working my way thru piles of laundry. I am always amazed at the damage four kids can do.

Wish I had some good questions for you today. But frankly I am all questioned out! Read anything interesting?

My wife and I were lazy this weekend, we had friends over and played video games most of the weekend (Rock Band is fun).

[Misshalfway]

We are waiting for Rock band to come out for the Wii. Everyone says it is a blast.

[Guest tomk]

I've been thinking about this recently after reading some posts on this forum and other forums I frequent, so I figured I would discuss it here. Feel free not to answer if this topic makes you uncomfortable or you are offended by it.

I'll start off by saying that I like to think that I've got an open mind. I'm not a member, but I'm not from another religion either. I have no vested interest in the BoM being true or false. I've been investigating the historical aspects of BoM lately at the urging of my wife and neighbors. I've looked at both sides and read a great deal of arguments and from my perspective the stories in the BoM are completely unsubstantiated by genetic and archeological data. This is not to say it proves they didn't happen, just that I (personally)haven't found any convincing evidence that they did happen. That is beside the point though, it is only what inspired the question. I don't want to discuss evidence, lack of evidence, or counter evidence, there are plenty of other threads for that.

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

You're right, the discussion has been derailed a bit from your original question.

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?"

Quite deeply, but only because of the witnesses I've had, which have come because of my faith.

Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true?

No.

If not, why?

Because I prayed to know if it was true, and received an answer.

I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs?

No, because that evidence, no matter how convincing is being produced by fallen men and women, it is not coming from God Himself.

If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs?

No, because it would show evidence that such existed.

At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

There is no point at which my faith would not "cut it" anymore. I've received the promised witness. I choose not to turn back from that witness. To do so would be, in effect, to turn my back on God.

Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing would sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

It's not mindless, unquestioning certainty if you ACTUALLY have a witness from God of the truth of a thing.

There are things that exist that are "not of this world" which are not explainable by the world, but nevertheless, they are true. That is faith. The "evidence" of things NOT SEEN, which are true.

[Misshalfway]

I will tell you what I believe. I believe I have been sitting in this seat too long! I will leave you to your discussions. I am off to deliver birthday invitations for my son. Hope you enjoy the day.

[Ray A]

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

So far I haven't seen any convincing evidence that the BoM actually occurred, and that's looking at it purely from a "scientific" viewpoint, or examining the statements of archaeologists qualified in this field. I don't know of even one who accepts this, and there are even some Mormon archaeologists who don't accept it.

Does that make the BoM untrue, or false, for me? No. I believe there is sufficient internal evidence to accept it as both divine and inspired. It was Einstein who stated that "God does not play dice". Later it was discovered through quantum mechanics that he does. Just an anaolgy.

[DigitalShadow]

You're right, the discussion has been derailed a bit from your original question.

Just to clarify, I was joking with MissHalfway earlier, I wasn't really upset that the thread has been so derailed, just commenting on the comedy of it :)

But I do very much appreciate your (and others) honest answers to the original post's questions.

[Guest tomk]

Just to clarify, I was joking with MissHalfway earlier, I wasn't really upset that the thread has been so derailed, just commenting on the comedy of it :)

But I do very much appreciate your (and others) honest answers to the original post's questions.

Okay.

[Misshalfway]

I was thinking today how I feel the Spirit. To show how I can tell the difference between it and my own thoughts and emotions. I find it very difficult to describe. I think first of that list TomK put up earlier in the thread, peace, love, patience, etc. And I think it is important to note that those are the fruits of the Spirit -- not necessarily the Spirit itself, even though I hear people using those words to describe their spiritual experience. I think that can cloud the understanding of things until one gets the process. Then it makes sense when you feel peace or more love or more patience.

The Spirit for me does many things. It tells me truth. That feels like words coming into my mind. Sometimes it feels like a strong assurance or warning feeling. Other times I get random spiritual communications. Like a sudden feeling about one of my kids. Or a direction or command about some thing I need to do in the future. It is usually an idea I hadn't thought of before. Or perhaps it is a reminder of something I already knew but forgot. I remember one time a college boyfriend asked me to marry him. Completely unsolicited came a voice in my left ear stating, "That's not him!" Other times hymns or other inspirational songs come into my mind. Father uses the lyrics to comfort or answer my prayers. I sometimes find myself humming a tune and realize the words are in answer to my prayer. Most of the time I feel the Spirit teach me in the scriptures --- and even change my heart as I read. I may be angry about something and I will read some passage and the Spirit will help me convert my feelings into ones of understanding, patience or forgiveness. This feeling is almost impossible to describe. All I can say is that it happens. Sometimes the spirit cuts to my very soul. That usually happens when I have sinned badly. Those times aren't that fun.

I guess what I am trying to share is the diversity with which I feel and experience the influence of the Holy Ghost. And maybe show how I know it isn't my emotions ormy thoughts.

[Hemidakota]

I do believe after reading the last five pages, DS, you are seeking the 'utlimate answer' to that question.

[MormonMama]

For me, it would take God himself saying that it wasn't true.

That pretty much sums it up for me too.

[Hemidakota]

The problem with that notion, not going to happen.

[DigitalShadow]

I was thinking today how I feel the Spirit. To show how I can tell the difference between it and my own thoughts and emotions. I find it very difficult to describe. I think first of that list TomK put up earlier in the thread, peace, love, patience, etc. And I think it is important to note that those are the fruits of the Spirit -- not necessarily the Spirit itself, even though I hear people using those words to describe their spiritual experience. I think that can cloud the understanding of things until one gets the process. Then it makes sense when you feel peace or more love or more patience.

The Spirit for me does many things. It tells me truth. That feels like words coming into my mind. Sometimes it feels like a strong assurance or warning feeling. Other times I get random spiritual communications. Like a sudden feeling about one of my kids. Or a direction or command about some thing I need to do in the future. It is usually an idea I hadn't thought of before. Or perhaps it is a reminder of something I already knew but forgot. I remember one time a college boyfriend asked me to marry him. Completely unsolicited came a voice in my left ear stating, "That's not him!" Other times hymns or other inspirational songs come into my mind. Father uses the lyrics to comfort or answer my prayers. I sometimes find myself humming a tune and realize the words are in answer to my prayer. Most of the time I feel the Spirit teach me in the scriptures --- and even change my heart as I read. I may be angry about something and I will read some passage and the Spirit will help me convert my feelings into ones of understanding, patience or forgiveness. This feeling is almost impossible to describe. All I can say is that it happens. Sometimes the spirit cuts to my very soul. That usually happens when I have sinned badly. Those times aren't that fun.

I guess what I am trying to share is the diversity with which I feel and experience the influence of the Holy Ghost. And maybe show how I know it isn't my emotions ormy thoughts.

When I get feelings like that, I usually attribute it to intuition. I think that there are processes that happen in your unconscious mind that sometimes bubble up to your conscious thoughts when they are relevant. I hesitate to attribute those feelings to the Spirit because my intuition tells me that religion in general is wrong. I think that my intuition originates from my upbringing just as my wife's intuition telling her the LDS church is true most likely comes from her upbringing and my best friend's intuition that the Catholic church is true most likely comes from his upbringing.

I'm certainly not trying to discount your feelings of the Spirit, and I could very well be completely wrong about everything. I'm just trying to show you how the world looks and feels from my perspective.

[DigitalShadow]

I do believe after reading the last five pages, DS, you are seeking the 'utlimate answer' to that question.

The truth is the 'ultimate answer' and that is what I'm seeking. Each of us seek it out in our own way.

[Misshalfway]

Hey DS! How ya doing? I am good today.

You are not discounting my feelings at all. I am actually glad that you see these feelings as intuition. Yeah! Common ground! I understand how you would view that as a subconscious response. I can also see that nurturing.... upbringing can shape beliefs. I get that. For the sake of the experiment though, perhaps you could assume that those feelings come from the spirit. What do you think?

[Hemidakota]

When I get feelings like that, I usually attribute it to intuition. I think that there are processes that happen in your unconscious mind that sometimes bubble up to your conscious thoughts when they are relevant. I hesitate to attribute those feelings to the Spirit because my intuition tells me that religion in general is wrong. I think that my intuition originates from my upbringing just as my wife's intuition telling her the LDS church is true most likely comes from her upbringing and my best friend's intuition that the Catholic church is true most likely comes from his upbringing.

I'm certainly not trying to discount your feelings of the Spirit, and I could very well be completely wrong about everything. I'm just trying to show you how the world looks and feels from my perspective.

Gotta love the gospel according to the wiki god.

[DigitalShadow]

Hey DS! How ya doing? I am good today.

You are not discounting my feelings at all. I am actually glad that you see these feelings as intuition. Yeah! Common ground! I understand how you would view that as a subconscious response. I can also see that nurturing.... upbringing can shape beliefs. I get that. For the sake of the experiment though, perhaps you could assume that those feelings come from the spirit. What do you think?

Assuming those feelings are from from the spirit just leads me to believe that the spirit wants me to be agnostic, my wife to be LDS and my friend to be Catholic. That leaves me right where I started

[Hemidakota]

The truth is the 'ultimate answer' and that is what I'm seeking. Each of us seek it out in our own way.

I did...I was shaken.

[Misshalfway]

Assuming those feelings are from from the spirit just leads me to believe that the spirit wants me to be agnostic, my wife to be LDS and my friend to be Catholic. That leaves me right where I started

You're killin' me smalls!!

[DigitalShadow]

Gotta love the gospel according to the wiki god.

Heh, sorry, wikipedia has become a part of my consciousness now. I'm almost never without my laptop so any time I'm curious about something I just wiki it and get the opinions of other people. Obviously not everything from there is accurate and I don't take it as Gospel, but there is a suprising amount of information there.

[Misshalfway]

Though this universe I own,

I possess not a thing,

for I cannot know the unknown,

if to the known I cling.

One of my favorite little poems...... What would it take for you to let go of the knowns or assumptions about your intuition? I am not sure you can prove that those feelings don't come from God.

[DigitalShadow]

You're killin' me smalls!!

But that was my point in my reply. Our intuitions all tell us different and conflicting things that are suspiciously similar to what we learned growing up and what we have already experienced in our lifetimes which leads me to believe they are simply a product of how we grew up. Even assuming that is wrong and that our intuition is a connection the the Spirit leaves me even worse off because my intuition tells me that all religions are wrong

[Guest tomk]

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I'm just trying to show you how the world looks and feels from my perspective.

That's just it. It is called the still small voice. It is easily missed and dismissed and ignored, because it is so still and small.

Again, it goes back to God not wanting to interfere with our agency. We must be the ones to cultivate the gift. We must be the ones to seek that still small voice. Our hearing, or rather feeling, that voice -- the ability can be improved upon. But we have to be the ones.

God laments:

I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

What this means is - DS, you are one of those people who are not comprehending the light, based on some of your questions.

This is not a criticism. Just an observation.

You are not unlike the millions who have lived and died "never knowing God"

Your situation can be rectified, but you cannot come to know God while insisting on using the means that make sense to your mind. That may seem logical to you -- but that matters very little if your GOAL is to come to know God and know that He exists.

Many of us are here sharing with you the HOW. And you keep saying, "Well, I'm not so sure about that." Our answer is not going to change no matter how many times you ask the same question.

If you want to learn chemistry, and you think the best way to learn chemistry is to study Spanish, it may be quite some time before you come to understand chemistry. Not because chemistry is not able to be understood or has no "evidence" -- but because your methodology is wrong. Studying Spanish is the wrong road to understanding chemistry. You might have better luck just taking my word for it and buying a chemistry book.

If you want to come to know God, but insist on it happening in the way you think it should happen (i.e. God is all powerful so why doesn't He just show me the evidence that He is real or that the LDS Church is true?) then it is going to be a long time before you get your answer. Not because the answer is not to be had, but because you refuse to do what the Source says you should do in order to receive the evidence.

[Misshalfway]

But that was my point in my reply. Our intuitions all tell us different and conflicting things that are suspiciously similar to what we learned growing up and what we have already experienced in our lifetimes which leads me to believe they are simply a product of how we grew up. Even assuming that is wrong and that our intuition is a connection the the Spirit leaves me even worse off because my intuition tells me that all religions are wrong

I have to disagree with you on this because how I grew up. I won't share with you the gory details but I do feel very different inside of my soul about things I learned as a child. Sometimes I struggle to undo my conditioning....but there is always a voice of truth in the back of all of it...the center of all of it where I can listen to my true voice and where God visits me with truth.

Is there any place inside of you like that? I know that you grew up the son of a scientist. Are there parts to your learnings that you deviate from because they are 'not you' or stuff you just know wasn't right?

I ask.... just because I am trying to figure out how God might speak to you and how you might recognize it. If God were going to talk to you, how have you supposed he would do so? understanding what you do about the physiology of man?